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Old 08-02-2013, 01:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Questions about SL Pathfinding: Current status

Now that sometime has passed after it's implementation i have a question:


Is it true it raises overall Sim lag about 20 % if pathfinding is on ?

Or was it just the the usual panic over rumours/fake reports...what's the real situation now?


Any insight apreciated thanks!
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Is it true it raises overall Sim lag about 20 % if pathfinding is on ?
No.

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Originally Posted by Aldbaran Galicia View Post
Or was it just the the usual panic over rumours/fake reports...
Yes.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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No.


Yes.
thanks!


Now i need to convince my landlord that disabled Panthfinding from our region at launch because of the rumours to put to try it back on...
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Now i need to convince my landlord that disabled Panthfinding from our region at launch because of the rumours to put it back on...
Good grief. I was going to mention that nobody noticed the difference and those being paranoid about it impacting their regions turned it off.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Does anyone know of a region that makes good use of pathfinding?

Does anyone know of any cool pathfinding wildllife?
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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On my end i do ship to ship battles on the Blake sea and on privet estates geared to this fun. They have them all turned off saying it dose interfere with moving objects and creates a lot of problem, also i have friends race 1/4 mile race cars but they don't cross Sims only from one end of a sim to the other in a blink of an eye, they too had problems and had to turn off pathfinder.

I think most estates have it turned off. I have a drone that is suppose to move on its own and it never worked. It is in the state of flight but wont go anyplace so i am like a child with a broken airplane kicking it down the street to see if it will work.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
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My landlord is not fully convinced...As he doesn't know any of you...

So if any of you could share your experiences pathfinding, much appreciated.


He is asking me how with pathfinding on will the sim have any benefit...i tried to explain the vehicles situation but there's probably more to it.

On the other hand, i just want PF because of a VKC pet that keeps getting all jumpy and sometimes stuck on the roof trying to get out, which i imagine can put a script on overdrive.

I think he is more worried about lag than anything else.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Does anyone know of a region that makes good use of pathfinding?
Linden Realms, which sort of highlights the issue. The sort of sim wide experience that pathfinding could achieve is stifled by tier costs.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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He is asking me how with pathfinding on will the sim have any benefit...i tried to explain the vehicles situation but there's probably more to it.

On the other hand, i just want PF because of a VKC pet that keeps getting all jumpy and sometimes stuck on the roof trying to get out, which i imagine can put a script on overdrive.

I think he is more worried about lag than anything else.
In theory, pathfinding should be less resource intensive than other methods to move characters. The Wiki explains this:

"Up till now, content creators had to use resource-intensive scripting workarounds to emulate intelligent character movement. With the addition of pathfinding, content creators will have a much easier and better performing way of creating characters that can move around in the world. Characters can use LSL functions to avoid obstacles, move around corners, climb inclines, and move across region boundaries: things that were very difficult or even impossible before. Pathfinding will also enable new gameplay mechanics, such as creating food that attracts monsters."

Pathfinding in Second Life - Second Life Wiki

Of course to benefit from that, you need pathfinding enabled items, the old items will still exist and still be used.

Last edited by Ciaran Laval; 08-03-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Aldbaran Galicia View Post
On the other hand, i just want PF because of a VKC pet that keeps getting all jumpy and sometimes stuck on the roof trying to get out, which i imagine can put a script on overdrive.

I think he is more worried about lag than anything else.
I have a couple of vkc pets set to pathfinding too, depending on where they're at, but most of the time I keep PF off on them. The problem with one of my buildings was that trying to optimize it for pathfinding would break the door and window scripts, no matter how I went about it; it's an older build predating pathfinding, and creator isn't around at the moment to ask about it, so decided it was probably futile. What I ended up doing with some of my builds was to delink the roof and set it to phantom. It still looks awkward but they don't get stuck as badly. You can also set a radius for roaming using the Stay command.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Disabling pathfinding does not effect performance...

But it also isn't really missed. :/ I've yet to find a real good use for it. the "AI" is too unpredictable for me to be useful. Every application I think of requires more finer control.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:14 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I have a couple of vkc pets set to pathfinding too, depending on where they're at, but most of the time I keep PF off on them. The problem with one of my buildings was that trying to optimize it for pathfinding would break the door and window scripts, no matter how I went about it; it's an older build predating pathfinding, and creator isn't around at the moment to ask about it, so decided it was probably futile. What I ended up doing with some of my builds was to delink the roof and set it to phantom. It still looks awkward but they don't get stuck as badly. You can also set a radius for roaming using the Stay command.
Pathfinding works on linksets, which means builders who want to optimise it need to take a different approach to how they build than they traditionally have, for example you'd probably want floors and walls in different linksets as you'd want floors to be walkable and walls to be static objects.

Setting a building to a pathfinding setting should not break scripts, but unlinking objects from the linkset might.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Good grief. I was going to mention that nobody noticed the difference and those being paranoid about it impacting their regions turned it off.
Kinda. Early on, Pathfinding would take a big whack out of a sim's Spare time, even if there were no Pathfinding Characters in the region. That's changed now, but it's still the case that the very first completely trivial character added to a PF-enabled region will gobble up a bunch of that Spare time. It is, however, very difficult for PF characters to have any noticeable effect on anything except spare time, sim-side. (They do stream object updates to viewers, so that could be a consideration particularly for users with bandwidth caps.)

... not that I'm especially promoting Pathfinding. I've yet to be much impressed by any PF-driven effect. The few times I've played around with it myself I've been tempted to add prim-animation scripts that really do lag other scripts.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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My landlord is not fully convinced...As he doesn't know any of you...
So it would be too much of a hassle for the landlord to switch on pathfinding, monitor the performance for a while and come to a conclusion at their own end, considering that there's not really any trust for hearsay?
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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So it would be too much of a hassle for the landlord to switch on pathfinding, monitor the performance for a while and come to a conclusion at their own end, considering that there's not really any trust for hearsay?
nah...he just i dunno know asking questions about something he only heard once and currently i was the only one ever asking for it.

He hasn't answered yet but i think he will turn it on...Just for the sake that i am his oldest client living there pretty much since late 2008!
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I have a couple of vkc pets set to pathfinding too, depending on where they're at, but most of the time I keep PF off on them. The problem with one of my buildings was that trying to optimize it for pathfinding would break the door and window scripts, no matter how I went about it; it's an older build predating pathfinding, and creator isn't around at the moment to ask about it, so decided it was probably futile. What I ended up doing with some of my builds was to delink the roof and set it to phantom. It still looks awkward but they don't get stuck as badly. You can also set a radius for roaming using the Stay command.
I normally use Settle.


wait...so...not just the pet itself but the objects he can collide with needs to be somehow pathfind enabled? Or it is just the way you build that changed for pathfinding? (EDIT: Ciaran answered this question)

My build is from 2009 or so....
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Linden Realms, which sort of highlights the issue. The sort of sim wide experience that pathfinding could achieve is stifled by tier costs.
So, nobody has done a sim since Linden Realms to exploit pathfinding NPCs at all? Wow.

Boy, if that's true, I bet you could get LL to approve one of those free art sims (if they do that again) in an INSTANT if your project centered on pathfinding.

I know there were a few creators in Lionheart chat who were enthused about it. If I login in the morning sometime, when they were active, I'll have to ask.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So, nobody has done a sim since Linden Realms to exploit pathfinding NPCs at all? Wow.
Pfft I didn't say nobody else had done it, just that tier is a barrier to doing it on a large scale.

It's also quite a tedious process, you have to set the objects up with pathfinding properties, if you're starting afresh this would be a niggle, if you're starting with existing content it goes beyond niggly for a sim owner, you're also advised to not name objects as "object", which makes sense in understanding which items you're fiddling with, but there are a hell of lot of existing linksets called object!
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Old 08-03-2013, 03:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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but it's still the case that the very first completely trivial character added to a PF-enabled region will gobble up a bunch of that Spare time.
False.

Sim with no pathfinding chars:



Same sim with 1 Pathfinding Character (an evil snowman running around attacking people):




as you can see, Pathfinding only uses 1.5ms of sim time. that is hardly a 'bunch' of spare time.

Now, same sim with 6 snowmen:



As you can see, additional characters do add a far smaller amount of time (seems about 0.1 ms per each additional character), but overall Pathfinding is very low impact.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:18 AM   #20 (permalink)
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So if any of you could share your experiences pathfinding, much appreciated.
I made creepy "mingebag" like PF creatures to fallow my friend around the sim, they used the unfinished meshes avatars he made and left out rezed with full perms. Needless to say, he wasn't amused.


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Linden Realms, which sort of highlights the issue. The sort of sim wide experience that pathfinding could achieve is stifled by tier costs.
They updated it to use PF finally?
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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as you can see, Pathfinding only uses 1.5ms of sim time. that is hardly a 'bunch' of spare time.
To me, that's a "bunch." It's about 7% of the total frame time, and easily could be 100% of the spare time on a busy sim.

Imagine if somebody introduced a product with scripts using that amount of spare time. How would folks characterize that product? and that scripter?

I think we agree that the actual impact on sim performance is not as great as might be suggested by that number because the scheduler is pretty good about shedding low-priority work (especially including scripts) if performance starts to degrade.

It's a good point, which I didn't make explicitly enough, that just that first character triggers the usage (and as I said, it can be the most trivial possible character). That's the case now; the point I was trying to make was that the effect used to be triggered simply by having Pathfinding enabled on the sim.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
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To me, that's a "bunch." It's about 7% of the total frame time, and easily could be 100% of the spare time on a busy sim.

Imagine if somebody introduced a product with scripts using that amount of spare time. How would folks characterize that product? and that scripter?

I think we agree that the actual impact on sim performance is not as great as might be suggested by that number because the scheduler is pretty good about shedding low-priority work (especially including scripts) if performance starts to degrade.

It's a good point, which I didn't make explicitly enough, that just that first character triggers the usage (and as I said, it can be the most trivial possible character). That's the case now; the point I was trying to make was that the effect used to be triggered simply by having Pathfinding enabled on the sim.
I can understand what you're saying. But having spare time isn't really a requirement for having a smooth running sim. Spare time represents under-utilized capacity. A sim can have no spare time and still run very well.

At some point, as load increases, scripts will start to slow, they will be the first thing to degrade. However even in those circumstances the sim will still run relatively fine. It's only when all the scheduling room is queezed out of the script end of things, that performance will really start to suffer.

If that is happening on your sim, you have something *else* very wrong to worry about, and it's not Pathfinding.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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For a while, I had a few pathfinding giant dragonflies wandering our sim. There was no noticeable performance hit. They got put away because no one particularly found them fun and one permanent resident was creeped out by giant bugs.
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Old 08-04-2013, 12:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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To me, that's a "bunch." It's about 7% of the total frame time, and easily could be 100% of the spare time on a busy sim.
I came away from LL's pitch on pathfinding feeling that it wasn't really designed for a residential sim to have a few smart cows wandering around, but more as an integral part of an RP sim.

I would really LOVE to visit a sim where a swarm of pterodactyls swoops down on me just before a friendly NPC native pops up and offers to guide me to a safe cave. We enter and roaches scatter, then slowly creep back to settle in the darker corners. Etc.

Where is a place like this?
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:10 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Questions about SL Pathfinding: Current status

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I came away from LL's pitch on pathfinding feeling that it wasn't really designed for a residential sim to have a few smart cows wandering around, but more as an integral part of an RP sim.

I would really LOVE to visit a sim where a swarm of pterodactyls swoops down on me just before a friendly NPC native pops up and offers to guide me to a safe cave. We enter and roaches scatter, then slowly creep back to settle in the darker corners. Etc.

Where is a place like this?
Well, SL pathfinding is for ground-based movement only.. Flying AI's aren't possible with it.

But you're correct, pathfinding is really for large sim projects. there's no real reason to enable pathfinding otherwise. Pathfinding characters don't work well in areas just because you enabled pathfinding. It takes a bunch of work to manually set up all the paths.

If you haven't done that, it's not being used and should be disabled.

Last edited by Adeon Writer; 08-04-2013 at 02:56 PM.
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