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Old 05-07-2013, 01:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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5/6 TOS change: the end of non-LindeX exchanges?

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[T]o better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.
Updated Second Life Terms of Service - Second Life


Pretty sure nothing of value will be lost here. I only used one of them once a long time ago and it was a pretty good rip off.
I forgot about how bad LL's billing system is and how hard it is to actually give them your money.
Seems my personal experience with VirWox many years ago is not typical.

Last edited by Kadah Coba; 05-09-2013 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Added stealth edit that happened to the blog post since this morning
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I wonder if this will effect VirWox?
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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So.

I have some residents who can't use LindeX because paypal doesn't work for them for one reason or another.

I think this next week is going to be really fucking rough!
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The relevant section of the ToS appears to be 5.3:

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5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged.

Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars. Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX.
This seems to say that it's still OK to use other exchanges, but don't come crying to us if it doesn't work out too well.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kadah Coba View Post
Updated Second Life Terms of Service - Second Life


Pretty sure nothing of value will be lost here. I only used one of them once a long time ago and it was a pretty good rip off.
No its rough.

Just for $25 it took 5 business days.

This is going to blow especially when I have accounts due for renewal this week.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KT Kingsley View Post
The relevant section of the ToS appears to be 5.3:

This seems to say that it's still OK to use other exchanges, but don't come crying to us if it doesn't work out too well.
I am not even sure how they *could* restrict it given that it takes place on a domain they do not own. If person X gives some currency to person Y and then person Y gives some lindens to person X there is no legitimate reason to say that is a no-no. As far as the lab is concerned they only know about the inworld transaction.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I wonder if this will effect VirWox?
If it does I'm not renewing Premium.

This was how I was able to, I cannot wait 5 business days just for the payment needed for it. That is outrageous.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kadah Coba View Post
Updated Second Life Terms of Service - Second Life


Pretty sure nothing of value will be lost here. I only used one of them once a long time ago and it was a pretty good rip off.
If this sees the end of VirWox then something of value is lost, I can get my money from Second Life to Virwox, to Paypal, to my bank account right now, then drive over to the bank and make a withdrawal all in the space of a few minutes.

The rate isn't as good, but the speed of service is excellent.

Then there's this part of the TOS:

"Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX."

If someone buys something from me and it later turns out those Linden Dollars were fraudulently purchased, they will be taken off me anyway, whether they were bought on the Lindex or elsewhere.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I don't read that as banning it. I read it as not authorized by LL.

Meaning they are not taking any responsibility for anything that happens as a result of using third party exchanges.

They are just clarifying it.

ETA: OK re-read the blog. NOT ALLOWED!!
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Couldn't they just work their magic touch with risk API and bugger up all other references to it from outside the Lindex?
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Couldn't they just work their magic touch with risk API and bugger up all other references to it from outside the Lindex?
That's what I was saying!

But NOPE, it had to be done the lazy, easy way.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ciaran Laval View Post
If someone buys something from me and it later turns out those Linden Dollars were fraudulently purchased, they will be taken off me anyway, whether they were bought on the Lindex or elsewhere.
I don't understand this at all. How can they tell that the linden dollars you were given were the same ones that came from a fraudulent purchase? It's not like they can check the serial numbers on the backs of the bills.

If a given avatar does something shadey, like buys L$ with a stolen CC# or something, then that's the avatar who should be punished (have their account debited of L$ or US$). The L$ themselves can't be phoney, only LL can make them. There can't be counterfeit L$ floating around the grid.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I am not even sure how they *could* restrict it given that it takes place on a domain they do not own. If person X gives some currency to person Y and then person Y gives some lindens to person X there is no legitimate reason to say that is a no-no. As far as the lab is concerned they only know about the inworld transaction.
I agree it'd probably require magic powers to restrict the use of non-Linden exchanges, but the absence of words specifically stating they're not actually banning it will lead to shedloads of drama from those who thus misread it as them doing exactly that.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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if this means anything they are currently removing all reference to third party exchanges and risk api off the wiki right now as we speek. i smell a lawsuit between viwrox and the lab is about to happen.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KT Kingsley View Post
I agree it'd probably require magic powers to restrict the use of non-Linden exchanges, but the absence of words specifically stating they're not actually banning it will lead to shedloads of drama from those who thus misread it as them doing exactly that.
I would say it is the other way round. They didn't clearly state it's not allowed in the ToS.

When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated Terms of Service. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.

ETA: Notice Kadah's quote doesn't have the last 2 words on it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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if this means anything they are currently removing all reference to third party exchanges and risk api off the wiki right now as we speek. i smell a lawsuit between viwrox and the lab is about to happen.
I don't doubt it.

They've been the world's largest third party supplier and this is going to be a huge deal.

I still disagree strongly with this change.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've always gotten my money from virwox. Not for cashout...but to buy L$ after I couldn't continue with my job I had at a club and even more after I started renting a place for living. I only know, that I couldn't really find a way to buy L$ elsewhere, because I don't have a damn credit card (and probably can't get one for the next 1,5 -2 years), but Virwox had a rich group of options to pay.

Sure...I have a paypal account, but there isn't a creditcard connected to it, only my bankaccount with another paymethod. (Another reason why I never became premium).

If this is going to be a total ban of every third party exchanges I forsee hard times for the business in SL. Many people won't be able to get any money into SL.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Syo Emerald View Post
I've always gotten my money from virwox. Not for cashout...but to buy L$ after I couldn't continue with my job I had at a club and even more after I started renting a place for living. I only know, that I couldn't really find a way to buy L$ elsewhere, because I don't have a damn credit card (and probably can't get one for the next 1,5 -2 years), but Virwox had a rich group of options to pay.

Sure...I have a paypal account, but there isn't a creditcard connected to it, only my bankaccount with another paymethod. (Another reason why I never became premium).

LL does accept debit cards and prepaid debit cards. I've used a prepaid debit card to buy Ls for years without any issues.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I would say it is the other way round. They didn't clearly state it's not allowed in the ToS.

When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated Terms of Service. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.

ETA: Notice Kadah's quote doesn't have the last 2 words on it.
That's interesting, because the ToS section 5.3 doesn't say anything about prohibition. And it's the ToS that sets the rules, not the blogs.

What the ToS says is:
Quote:
[…] Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. […]
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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oh goody, LL finds another way to make it difficult for people to spend and cashout money in sl.

yay us!
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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LL does accept debit cards and prepaid debit cards. I've used a prepaid debit card to buy Ls for years without any issues.
I hope that works for me, because I've a bad feeling about this...Think I'm going to check it out right now, so I can see if I will lost my SL home.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Linden Lab just doesn't want to get named as a defendant in a lawsuit against over something that a third-party exchange does wrong. Allowing the third-party exchanges to operate can be seen as tacit approval of them, or imply that Linden Lab does have some sort of oversight or review or quality control of third-party exchanges.

Each of the first four sentences is just a different way of saying "we are not responsible for third-party exchanges."
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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That's interesting, because the ToS section 5.3 doesn't say anything about prohibition. And it's the ToS that sets the rules, not the blogs.

What the ToS says is:
Exactly, that's what confused me in my first post. I read the blog as Kadah posted. Read the ToS and then reread the blog and saw the not allowed bit.

It's a clusterfuck as usual.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:26 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syo Emerald View Post
I've always gotten my money from virwox. Not for cashout...but to buy L$ after I couldn't continue with my job I had at a club and even more after I started renting a place for living. I only know, that I couldn't really find a way to buy L$ elsewhere, because I don't have a damn credit card (and probably can't get one for the next 1,5 -2 years), but Virwox had a rich group of options to pay.

Sure...I have a paypal account, but there isn't a creditcard connected to it, only my bankaccount with another paymethod. (Another reason why I never became premium).

If this is going to be a total ban of every third party exchanges I forsee hard times for the business in SL. Many people won't be able to get any money into SL.
I don't use a credit card for virwox or via the lindex, I use my paypal account which is tied to a bank account only.

So if you have a paypal account you should be fine with getting a premium account if you still want one (and of course depending on how old your account is, you may actually make a profit on the transaction - oops, I shouldn't have said that as I bet the next blog post will take away the grandfathering on older accounts now).
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