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Old 05-07-2013, 04:46 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:49 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Eesh. Much as I don't use other cash out options, the existing LL system can't seem to pay anything in less than a week. Last time it nearly took them 2 weeks. I've got used to waiting, none of my cash outs *need* to happen quickly so I just do them occasionally and check each day until they clear. But I'm wondering if the extra transactions through the Lindex are going to slow that cash out even more. Anyone who is relying on LL to pay out quickly is going to be in deep dooh-dah.

It's a shame they didn't work on speeding the transactions up so they were the fastest service, then when they put in this change nobody would be stuck waiting weeks for money they usually got in a couple of days. Mind you, if they were the best and fastest service, the others wouldn't be able to compete. Shame they prefer using sticks to carrots
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #53 (permalink)
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If they increased the cash out speed on the Lindex this would not be an issue or am I missing something?
I would be happy if it would work at all. Since 2009 I have made several attempts to use LindeX, no positive results so far.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:53 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I remember the week before they shut down the Brighton office. It was lightning fast.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:26 PM   #55 (permalink)
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If they increased the cash out speed on the Lindex this would not be an issue or am I missing something?
The fact it takes 5 business days already makes me prefer Virwox over this.

EDIT: I even had to use LIVE CHAT (Premium subscriber) just to get some insight on this.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #56 (permalink)
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ohkeey, Eldex is taking a break.

Well, this escalated quickly...
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:59 PM   #57 (permalink)
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LL could benefit from a better PR person who is going to give a more thorough explanation of what's going on when they make blog posts. Because that read a lot different than what it really meant.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:03 PM   #58 (permalink)
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LL could benefit from a better PR person who is going to give a more thorough explanation of what's going on when they make blog posts. Because that read a lot different than what it really meant.
The fact that some of the third party exchanges don't even know what it means suggests there's a big communications problem.

There again, LL and communications is not a new issue.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:24 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I'm not sure yet how worried I should be about this overall, but I do have one question: as a merchant, will I be able to disallow being paid in funds that weren't obtained through LindEX? Otherwise this seems to greatly increase the likelihood that people will pay me in "funny money" and I have no way of knowing if or when it'll be taken from me.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:24 PM   #60 (permalink)
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The fact that some of the third party exchanges don't even know what it means suggests there's a big communications problem.
I'd say that the fact that some of the third party exchanges don't know what this means suggests they're not a reliable service. A solid financially-savvy service is going to comply with Federal regulations, just as LL seems to be doing. It's not LL's responsibility to clarify adherence to the law to other companies.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lyndka View Post
I think the Labs have probably been reading about the micro transaction model for games that NCSoft have finessed with Guild Wars 2 and want to apply it to Second Life to increase their cash flows.

However, they've probably only seen one side of the equation i.e. the money taken via the MP or through vendors in stores (and don't think they don't track these transactions - why else does the grid grind slower some days?) and not realised how much of a financial life line that Second Life can be to some creatives.

The more you consider how the ToS reads (and the HyperGrid article notwithstanding) the Labs want you to pay them your hard-earned and not someone else because otherwise they make no money out of the game. The money from Sim & server rentals is probably just covering hardware costs but leaving very little in the pot for development and they need the development to keep money flowing longterm.

I think they'll be surprised how very few people move over to buying using the "Buy L$" button and there'll be incentives next probably e.g. "Buy 5000 and get 10% free". I just don't think they get it...
Considering they still charge 1000 setup fee, when its being run on equipment that really should not be more than 300? And the maintenance is surely not 300 a month for a sim. I think they make plenty from tier...

They don't make much of -anything- from marketplace, since they only get cash from cast transactions, not the linden ones.
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:37 PM   #62 (permalink)
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how would they know you used your credit card to buy lindens elsewhere anyways?

it just sounds like a deterrent more than really them able to get that information..

all they would really see would be a transaction from one user to the other wouldn't they?

a lot of it just sounds like them covering their butt when people decide to use other sources.. as well as kind of a warning that they put themselves at risk.. and just in the freakish occurrence that somehow we find out..we will take those away..
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:09 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I'd say that the fact that some of the third party exchanges don't know what this means suggests they're not a reliable service. A solid financially-savvy service is going to comply with Federal regulations, just as LL seems to be doing. It's not LL's responsibility to clarify adherence to the law to other companies.
Eldexchange are European based, it's not adherence to the law that they are seeking clarity on, it's whether their service now breaches the terms of service and yes Linden Lab should be able to clarify that without having to explain Federal laws to them.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:17 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Thanks for the link, Beebo.

Fwiw, after seeing so many people talk about speaking to Live Chat and hearing what they're saying about LL's interpretation of what is and isn't "authorized," I have updated my blog post.

Short version: what I had put as "What it means to you" is probably invalid. If LL is interpreting "not authorized" to mean "not permitted under the Terms of Service," it's terrible contract drafting, but it does mean that SL users should stop using third party exchanges.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:24 PM   #65 (permalink)
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You have to realize the people on Live chat are in a call center and have no real idea what is going on.

The fact they just parrot back the blog post should tell you something.

I'm surprised Vaki as a lawyer isn't able to interpret the TOS wording. It's pretty clear:

Quote:
5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged.

Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars. Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX.
First, the title, it acknowledges that there are 3rd party exchanges. If 3rd party exchanges were not allowed, they would not acknowledge them. They would instead say there are NO 3rd party exchanges.

Next, They go to a lot of trouble to make it clear these 3rd party exchanges are not affiliated with LL. If they were prohibited from existing, that wouldn't be necessary.

Lastly, nowhere in the paragraph are the words 'disallowed', 'not allowed', 'illegal', 'banned', 'prohibited', or anything else of that nature used.

In short there is nothing to indicate 3rd party exchanges are 'banned'. The fact they say that in the blog post is irrelevant, it's the wording of the TOS itself that matters. It's the binding document.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:44 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Right, yes, and that's more or less exactly what I said in my update.

However, the numerous people who've talked to LL this afternoon are reporting back that LL is interpreting "not authorized" as "not permitted under the Terms of Service." I don't think that's what the Terms of Service says, but I'm not the one in charge of, you know, not banning people's accounts.

So my observation is that if this is indeed how LL is interpreting its own ToS, then it has drafted its ToS incredibly poorly, and should fix it.

Which is what I said in my update.

...Was that unclear?
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:47 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I would understand why a third-party exchange wants to clarify the difference between the blog post and the ToS wording.

Yes, it is the ToS that is binding. But if the Linden Lab staff responsible for enforcing the ToS does not understand what the ToS means and starts reversing transactions and clearing out accounts, they can do a lot of short term financial damage to the exchanges and the people using them. Sure they can hire lawyers and maybe sue Linden Lab and win something years down the road, but the right to sue is always a less attractive option than just avoiding problems in the first place.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:56 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Oh, absolutely -- if I were involved with a third party exchange, I'd be losing my fecal matter over this at the moment, given how poorly Linden Lab seems to be communicating its position. I mean, just what's been done today will probably do long-term damage to third party exchanges.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:07 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars.
I don't understand how the exchanges will now operate going forward. They had the risk api pulled from them.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Arch...llar_Exchanges
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Lind...hange_Risk_API

These pages are now deleted.

That means they have no way except an internal method to determine who is "safe" to buy and sell Lindens. I expect most of them won't accept the risk and will close. They will be operating in the blind, and I doubt many will bother with that kind of risk. And the exchanges that do continue, might not continue to offer instant cash outs.

Pulling the risk api seems crystal clear as to the intentions.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Oh, absolutely -- if I were involved with a third party exchange, I'd be losing my fecal matter over this at the moment, given how poorly Linden Lab seems to be communicating its position. I mean, just what's been done today will probably do long-term damage to third party exchanges.
Why would anyone do business with Linden Lab after this? For years they have encouraged 3rd party exchanges, advertised Risk API, just to turn on a dime and all of a sudden kill off all those business. So I would say this also does damage to long-term viability of Linden Lab as a credible business partner.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:46 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Well. Without third-party exchanges I don't have a way to pay for premium, but I have to cancel anyway due to real life circumstances. And if I can't even just buy L$ once in a while when I have a bit extra to rent with I miss out on my favorite activity - obsessively redecorating my parcel! What are us landless SL hobos supposed to do for fun?
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:47 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Here's the thing. I can't speculate as to what sort of arrangements LL had with the other exchanges, what sort of notice LL gave other exchanges, or how all that happened.

I can only make two observations. First, the third party exchanges didn't notify any of their users. That suggests to me that they didn't know, but of course I can't be certain.

Second, if LL has already, today, pulled the APIs that allow the third party exchanges to function, it seems to me that LL may have a problem. The changes it has announced to its ToS are not effective yet (see Second Life ToS Section 1). The former Terms are still effective for the next 30 days. Third party exchanges should continue to function during that time.

Quote:
1. CHANGES TO THIS AGREEMENT
This Agreement may be changed by Linden Lab effective immediately by notifying you as provided in Section 13.4 below; provided that Material Changes will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification.
I'm sure they have their own counsel, who are probably already on top of this.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:08 PM   #73 (permalink)
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So let me see if I get this right - it's possible we may wind up with a situation where the only exchanges left standing are the Lindex, and if you are in a country where it is hard to get a payment method that can use the Lindex, the more shady type of gold sellers?
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:10 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I'm sure they have their own counsel, who are probably already on top of this.
Presuming they(eta: meaning LL) care, and I'm not sure why they would. Even if they did, and presuming this change is due to new government regulations, who are LL going to be more concerned with? It's users, most of whom have little to no legal resources? Or said government?
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Last edited by Evola; 05-07-2013 at 11:46 PM. Reason: clarifying
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:17 PM   #75 (permalink)
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If Linden Lab had no contractual arrangement with the exchanges regarding how they use the Risk API, then Linden Lab does not have to provide them any notice. (The ToS did not cover any provisions about how exchanges could or should use it, right?) Of course, whether Linden Lab has to provide notice and whether it would be basic, big-boy professionalism to provide notice are different issues.
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