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Old 05-07-2013, 03:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sione View Post
Exactly, that's what confused me in my first post. I read the blog as Kadah posted. Read the ToS and then reread the blog and saw the not allowed bit.

It's a clusterfuck as usual.
Shame the blog piece isn't open to comments.

ETA: this would probably be worth pointing out to Rodvik. I'm sure there's someone with an inside track reading this thread who'll do that.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I don't use a credit card for virwox or via the lindex, I use my paypal account which is tied to a bank account only.

So if you have a paypal account you should be fine with getting a premium account if you still want one (and of course depending on how old your account is, you may actually make a profit on the transaction - oops, I shouldn't have said that as I bet the next blog post will take away the grandfathering on older accounts now).
I'm just confused....will I need to fill in billing information? I was always happy not to do that every time someone posted on the forum, that they lost their account.

I don't think I will get a bonus, my oldest account is from 2010, too young to be a grandfather
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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It's a mixed message to new sign ups then?

"Sign up for this free virtual world game thing, if you want to spend money in there - you need to give us your payment data and *fingers crossed* it's really secure with us.. in case you were wondering... really, it is...."

I'm a big VirWox fan (even though I'm a premium with payment info) - it makes me think before I buy rather than just click the "Buy L$". Perhaps the Labs want the publicity that the Android folks had "Hey - my kid spent hundreds of pounds in a free game buying enhancements - outrageous, shouldn't be alllowed...."
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Syo Emerald View Post
I'm just confused....will I need to fill in billing information? I was always happy not to do that every time someone posted on the forum, that they lost their account.

I don't think I will get a bonus, my oldest account is from 2010, too young to be a grandfather
Yes, you do fill out the billing information and you can decide what limits to put on how it can be used (only via web or viewer etc). don't forget you will also need to go into paypal once the payment instruction is set up and check the limit that paypal will send to LL. I can't remember the default amount but it may be too high for what you usually use. It's good practice to limit how much can be sent, just in case your sl account is ever hacked or you have a fit of madness and start buying regions.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I might guess too that the change has something to do with Linden Lab not wanting to be stuck holding the bag when it is forced to reimburse someone on a fraudulent credit card transaction. They are not going to eat the loss; they are going to find someone's account to extract reimbursement. They are carving out in the ToS that if you deal with a third-party exchange, your account is a target for reimbursement whether or not you know anything about the change of transactions leading to your cash-in or cash-out.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Not sure if saying fuck it.

I'm pissed that they are cutting off the only way I have to get money in to paypal quickly, however.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I've just had a live chat talk about the ToS. When I asked for the exact line with the "only allowed" or "disallowed" keywords from the official Terms of Service, I got a quote:

Quote:
The updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.
That's the first thing that made me think that I'm talking to .... (I don't want to use any inapropriate words, so I will end this sentence here).

Then, after few minutes of explaining that I am asking for the exact line from the OFFICIAL terms of service from Second Life Official Site - Virtual Worlds, Avatars, Free 3D Chat website, he told me to read the point no 5.3. I've read it couple of times. As I'm not a native english speaker, I checked "authorised" word in several dictionaries (we have "authorised" word in our language as well, sounds same, means same) and it's far from the meaning of "allowed" word.

IMO, they can't disallow selling lindens just like MMO games producers cant ban people who sell "gold" services.

Anyway, I can see at least 1 lie in the blog entry.
A) it's not disallowed to use 3rd party exchange points
B) if it is, the ToS does not "make it clear".

Another reason to consider Linden Labs a reliable company.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:47 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Also, the first thing I thought of when I heard this was this:
Could Linden Dollars become real money? – Hypergrid Business

Last edited by Han Held; 05-07-2013 at 03:52 PM. Reason: typo patrol
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Making it hard for people to pay you = fail.

This is a really serious nail in the coffin of SL. I don't think I'm overstating either. I only buy and so I just use Lindex, but third party exchanges are pretty much a necessity for a lot of merchants who need to cash out, and I'm told they are also necessary for a lot of residents not in the U.S. If the confusion is not cleared up, I expect some of the merchants and customers to go away. How many?
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:51 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda Archer View Post
Making it hard for people to pay you = fail.

This is a really serious nail in the coffin of SL. I don't think I'm overstating either. I only buy and so I just use Lindex, but third party exchanges are pretty much a necessity for a lot of merchants who need to cash out, and I'm told they are also necessary for a lot of residents not in the U.S. If the confusion is not cleared up, I expect some of the merchants and customers to go away. How many?
...all the ones who need to cash out?
...all the ones who can't wait nearly a week in order to pay their tier or rent?
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #37 (permalink)
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As long as they're not banning Virwox, whatever. There is precisely ZERO reason that a transaction that can be completed in seconds takes five business days. A lot of merchants rely on Virwox to cash out money in a timely fashion (as the Lab has no idea what "timely" means). Having to cash out five full days early isn't an answer as you then have *five days less money* in your hand every time you do it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:56 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Syo Emerald View Post
Time to get back to being a stripper...if everything else fails.
If you did, you have much more free time than I do.

Most people who can't get money into or out of SL are likely to just stop economic activity. The fraction of merchants and performers who are willing to put in all that effort just to support their SL, and never cash out, cannot be enough by itself to sustain the SL economy.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:01 PM   #39 (permalink)
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According to some article and link that was posted on this thread before:

Quote:
Before FinCEN issued this guidance, the only rules that applied to Linden Dollar were those promulgated by Lind Lab through its Terms of Service. This is no longer the case. Terms of service still apply, but not to the relationship between Linden Lab and the government.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
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If you did, you have much more free time than I do.

Most people who can't get money into or out of SL are likely to just stop economic activity. The fraction of merchants and performers who are willing to put in all that effort just to support their SL, and never cash out, cannot be enough by itself to sustain the SL economy.
I know, I had quite some free time when I did it...I think I'll less time for it now (and can't stick to stiff schedules), but there may be still some evenings, where I could do it.

Only thing that will happen, for me and everyone doing "clubbusiness and other entertainment-jobs", is that there is far less money to spend. Less money to be spend means less income for merchants. Also its questionable what happens to shops and venues which were around because their owners could use virwox.

This could mean a partly breakdown or at least a huge shrinking of parts of the SL business. And I fear LL is not even aware about what they are doing right now.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:07 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda Archer View Post
Making it hard for people to pay you = fail.

This is a really serious nail in the coffin of SL. I don't think I'm overstating either. I only buy and so I just use Lindex, but third party exchanges are pretty much a necessity for a lot of merchants who need to cash out, and I'm told they are also necessary for a lot of residents not in the U.S. If the confusion is not cleared up, I expect some of the merchants and customers to go away. How many?
I think the Labs have probably been reading about the micro transaction model for games that NCSoft have finessed with Guild Wars 2 and want to apply it to Second Life to increase their cash flows.

However, they've probably only seen one side of the equation i.e. the money taken via the MP or through vendors in stores (and don't think they don't track these transactions - why else does the grid grind slower some days?) and not realised how much of a financial life line that Second Life can be to some creatives.

The more you consider how the ToS reads (and the HyperGrid article notwithstanding) the Labs want you to pay them your hard-earned and not someone else because otherwise they make no money out of the game. The money from Sim & server rentals is probably just covering hardware costs but leaving very little in the pot for development and they need the development to keep money flowing longterm.

I think they'll be surprised how very few people move over to buying using the "Buy L$" button and there'll be incentives next probably e.g. "Buy 5000 and get 10% free". I just don't think they get it...

Last edited by Lyndka; 05-07-2013 at 04:09 PM. Reason: typo's - always typo's :(
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Just went to sell some lindens, via the Lindex from my account page, and can't till I've logged in and accepted their new TOS.

It's no particular skin off my nose this morning, but what if I don't like the new TOS? Making a stand and refusing could be a very expensive excercise.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:13 PM   #43 (permalink)
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There is a great effort missing... well, two, actually, counting in the discrepancy between "not authorized" and "not allowed" which seems to mean the same to LL:
Optimizing their own services attached to the LindeX. That includes cashouts, also cashout speed, that includes payment options ... actually, at this stage, the step seems just plain dumb and thoughtless.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #44 (permalink)
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If they increased the cash out speed on the Lindex this would not be an issue or am I missing something?
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:23 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tiffy Vella View Post
Just went to sell some lindens, via the Lindex from my account page, and can't till I've logged in and accepted their new TOS.

It's no particular skin off my nose this morning, but what if I don't like the new TOS? Making a stand and refusing could be a very expensive excercise.
According to Section 1, material changes to the TOS become effective only 30 days after notification. Of course, they do not necessarily want to point this out to you when you are accepting the changes.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:34 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Given the number of stolen accounts I have heard about over the past two weeks I have to wonder whether they have something to do with this....
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Given the number of stolen accounts I have heard about over the past two weeks I have to wonder whether they have something to do with this....
Anything to do with that KingGoon viewer thread? Could be a good drama.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #48 (permalink)
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For an informed analysis, read this blog entry from Vaki:

Linden Lab’s New ToS, the Bank Secrecy Act, and You | Insert Funny Name Here

Quote:
Here’s why LL has (probably) made the change: FinCEN changed stuff first.

In March, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), the federal agency charged with enforcing the nation's laws against money laundering, issued new regulatory guidelines regarding virtual currencies. This new guideline applies the Bank Secrecy Act to virtual currencies and businesses that administrate and exchange virtual currencies.
Quote:
So what does this mean to you?

That depends.

It may mean nothing at all. The third party exchangers may truck right along and be just fine. They may comply with the new regulations and continue forward. They may fail to comply and skate along without anyone noticing. BUT. They may fail to comply and get shut down and have all their assets seized. I don’t know.

Third party exchangers have always been a “use at your own risk” proposition. However, now the federal government is actively cracking down on administrators and exchangers of virtual currencies. It looks like Linden Lab is taking steps to make sure it’s in compliance. I don’t know if the others are.

So…you know. Use at your own risk. Really.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menchor Barbosa View Post
If they increased the cash out speed on the Lindex this would not be an issue or am I missing something?

Depends. It's still an issue for some folks outside of the US. LL has always been shit at handling international transactions.

But for me, the issue is speed. When the Lab can give me my money at the same speed as Virwox? I'll use it. Until then, I wont.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:44 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Anything to do with that KingGoon viewer thread? Could be a good drama.

Dunno what that kinggoon thread is?

I just know of 5 accounts all hacked and stolen in the last few weeks... and I dont know what many people hahaha
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