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Old 06-24-2013, 08:41 AM   #351 (permalink)
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of course its stupid.. but its a waste of time and energy beating oneself against the proverbial brick wall..

its also stupid to crap on other ppl about it..

go crap on LL
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:00 AM   #352 (permalink)
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So you're saying we shouldn't talk about the shortcomings of LL's materials implementation on a forum about SL in a thread specifically about LL's materials implementation.

Gotcha.

As for "a waste of time and energy", I dunno about you, but it takes very little time or energy for me to point at something and say, "That's fucking stupid." and there's that old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:08 AM   #353 (permalink)
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Chip said: "SL only gives us a specular map and an overall glossiness value which effects the entire surface."

I don't know why you say that. The specular map ("Shininess") controls the colour of the specular reflection in the rgb channels, and the strength of the environmental reflection in the alpha channel. The alpha channel of the normal map controls the specular exponent (tightness of specular highlights).So all of these can vary within the map. The spinners you get when you choose the "shininess" texture are multipliers for the values taken from these alpha channels for specular exponent ("glossiness" = old shininess) and environmental reflection. The effects are only the same across the whole map if the relevant alpha channels are unvarying (e.g. by using blank texture).

Using a grayscale image for the specular ("shininess")map, with constant or no alpha, will only vary the intensity of white specular highlights, without affecting the exponent, and allows only contant environment reflection. So it is far from using the whole scope of variation available.

Here are some pictures. They are the same box prim with the same texture, same normal map making the blobs, same specular map. The normal and specular maps have alpha channels that are stripes with the values shown (0-255). The specular map rgb is all full bright white. First is with "glossiness"=100, "environment"=0, so only the specular exponent varies. Second is with "glossiness"=0, "environment"=100, so only the environment reflection is present and varies. Third one shows both varying, with he stripes at right angle to see all the combinations.
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Materials project viewer is out to play with-sptst1_100_000_noalpha.jpg   Materials project viewer is out to play with-sptst1_000_100_noalpha.jpg   Materials project viewer is out to play with-sptst1_100_100_noalpha.jpg  
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:24 AM   #354 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
As for "a waste of time and energy", I dunno about you, but it takes very little time or energy for me to point at something and say, "That's fucking stupid." and there's that old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
/me just read MATBUG-221 and commented on it.

Penny, really now. You expect to get any sort of positive response out of a bug report like that?

I'll be greatly surprised if your bug report isn't closed as NOWGOAWAYBEFOREWETAUNTYOUASECONDTIME, just because of the language you use and the tone you wrote in. "System environment: Pure rage." ? Really, now?

There's a lot more work needed to add materials capabilities to the avatar mesh - which really means adding them to system clothing layers. In particular, the clothing assets on the back-end server would need to be expanded to include the materials information.. There's lots of room for things to go south in doing that. We're talking asset destruction bugs here.

The materials project was always intended as a first implementation phase, to see how it could be made to work on inworld objects and minimizing the number of assets that would have to be modified. NOw that things like the renderer changes are in place, they can look at follow-ons.

But frothing at the mouth at the developers isn't going to help any.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:33 AM   #355 (permalink)
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And not even in the Firestorm repo yet
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Originally Posted by Aribeth Zelin View Post
*waits impatiently for it to get to firestorm*
Me too, me too. I want it in Firestorm bad. Unfortunately, it depends on the CHUI changes to the viewer codebase, and those are proving...diifficult.

Still, I'm going to push hard to make sure it gets in the next Firestorm major release, 4.5. No promises on when that will happen. (See CHUI comment above.)

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Originally Posted by Chip Midnight View Post
One thing we really need now is copy/paste functionality to copy the tiling, offsets, and rotation values from one material channel to another. Most of the time the diffuse, normal, and specular maps will all be using the same values. Having to do each setting individually on all three maps is needlessly time consuming when a one button solution could easily be implemented.
I agree; it simply wasn't in the user interface design specification. I would expect to see it added fairly soon; if not in the LL viewer, it'll be in Firestorm for sure.

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Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
In that case, how did everyone involved with this project manage to contort their bodies in such a way that they were able to shove their whole, entire head up their own ass?

Or did they shove their heads up each others' asses, like some sort of "Linden Centipede"?
Here, Penny. From someone who worked on the project: See figure 1.

(Note that that is my own personal opinion, and I do not speak for the materials project team, Linden Lab, or The Phoenix Firestorm Project, Inc.)
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:44 AM   #356 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tonya Souther View Post
Me too, me too. I want it in Firestorm bad. Unfortunately, it depends on the CHUI changes to the viewer codebase, and those are proving...diifficult.
What is the connection between materials and "the CHUI changes to the viewer codebase"? I am not disputing that there is one; it's just that to someone like me who doesn't know anything about making viewers it's not obvious what connection the one has with the other.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:49 AM   #357 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
What is the connection between materials and "the CHUI changes to the viewer codebase"? I am not disputing that there is one; it's just that to someone like me who doesn't know anything about making viewers it's not obvious what connection the one has with the other.
That's all right. It's not obvious to someone who's not trying to merge the changes in.

The problem isn't that the materials code depends on the CHUI code directly. The problem is that the merge process depends heavily on code changes being applied in the same order to the same files. The CHUI changes hit a large part of the viewer codebase. (That's why it took LL a year to get CHUI out the door.) Inevitably, those changes hit files that the materials project changed. When they do, if you don't merge in the CHUI changes first, then you have to do a lot more work to fit the materials project changes into the code - work that you'll have to undo when you finally get around to putting the CHUI changes in, or will have to do over and over if you ignore the CHUI changes altogether.

This is the real reason that TPVs track the Linden viewer so closely: self-preservation. The more we diverge from the LL viewer, the harder we have to work to keep up with LL's changes.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:41 AM   #358 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonya Souther View Post
That's all right. It's not obvious to someone who's not trying to merge the changes in.
Though it should be obvious to anyone who's been around a while -- safe to assume this is standard LL coding where nothing is modular and everything is hardcoded. Can't change a meatball without the whole plate of spaghetti coming undone.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:48 AM   #359 (permalink)
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Though it should be obvious to anyone who's been around a while -- safe to assume this is standard LL coding where nothing is modular and everything is hardcoded. Can't change a meatball without the whole plate of spaghetti coming undone.
Yes. However, the scope of the CHUI changes is such that, even with proper modularization and separation of UI and worker code - something that would take a total rewrite of the viewer - merging in CHUI would be a lot of work, and avoiding it even more so.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:52 AM   #360 (permalink)
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Hummm. I was forced to DL the new Viewer today from LL, which has Materials in it. Turned on Advanced lighting, and every glossy surface in sight was ruined. My hardwood floors in my home now look like they have a dull inch-thick layer of grey plastic covering them, instead of the reasonably nice shine that they had before.

Guess I should be glad that the Advanced Lighting option hurts my frame rate so badly that I am unlikely to ever turn it on, except for specific still photography situations. A whole lot of content is going to be broken by this 'improvement'. Does LL care? I doubt it.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:58 AM   #361 (permalink)
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Sigh.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:00 AM   #362 (permalink)
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People have to realize that ALM, as in the 'deferred rendering/shadows/whatever', is not new. It's been available for years, and I have been running my client with it enabled for months now. You are mixing up the addition of materials, which is the new thing, with something that has been in the client for a long time and many people have been using for quite a while.

Objects that are not using materials will not look different from what they have looked like under Shadows/Deferred rendering/Enhanced Lighting months and months ago. You're trying something for the first time that you could have peeked at ages ago.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:01 AM   #363 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
In that case, how did everyone involved with this project manage to contort their bodies in such a way that they were able to shove their whole, entire head up their own ass?

Or did they shove their heads up each others' asses, like some sort of "Linden Centipede"?
Ok, seriously, Penny.


WE GET IT.

I swear, LL could cure cancer and solve all the Middle Eastern crises and you'll come out swinging saying LL are incompetent and could have done it so much better.

WE GET IT.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:06 AM   #364 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chalice Yao View Post
People have to realize that ALM, as in the 'deferred rendering/shadows/whatever', is not new. It's been available for years, and I have been running my client with it enabled for months now. You are mixing up the addition of materials, which is the new thing, with something that has been in the client for a long time and many people have been using for quite a while.

Objects that are not using materials will not look different from what they have looked like under Shadows/Deferred rendering/Enhanced Lighting months and months ago. You're trying something for the first time that you could have peeked at ages ago.
Quite possibly. It's been quite a while since I turned on advanced lighting, because, as I said, it destroys my frame rate. I guess I just hadn't tried turning it on inside my home before.

Having materials and specular maps is something I would have loved several years ago, when I was actively creating lots of content in SL. I also would have loved to have bump maps that work like they do in other 3D apps, and maybe we'll get that in SL in a few more years. Now, I'm afraid I don't care much one way or the other.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:16 AM   #365 (permalink)
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Thanks for the explanations, Tonya. I too was disappointed materials could not be applied to the avatar mesh, but better to take this in baby steps than jump in headlong.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #366 (permalink)
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If they'd let us frackin' script materials, I suspect the market would dispense with the avatar mesh in short order. Faster if we could also properly rig them.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:25 AM   #367 (permalink)
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If they'd let us frackin' script materials, I suspect the market would dispense with the avatar mesh in short order.
Scripting them was considered out of scope as well, though I wouldn't be surprised if there's work going on internally to do just that. (No, no insider knowledge here, just a guess.)

Quote:
Faster if we could also properly rig them.
This is a problem? I thought rigged mesh with materials worked fine.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:38 AM   #368 (permalink)
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I'm not happy with the fact that spec maps dosn't support color.
They do.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #369 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tonya Souther View Post
/me just read MATBUG-221 and commented on it.

Penny, really now. You expect to get any sort of positive response out of a bug report like that?
Not really. But this is Linden Lab. I expect the same response no matter what I post. And you know what, I've always gotten that.

It's been ten years. So yeah, I've kinda lost patience with them.
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Ok, seriously, Penny.


WE GET IT.

I swear, LL could cure cancer and solve all the Middle Eastern crises and you'll come out swinging saying LL are incompetent and could have done it so much better.

WE GET IT.
With all due respect, fuck you. I give LL all due credit when they do things right and I'll argue with people for days when they blame LL for things where LL has done the most they really can.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:43 AM   #370 (permalink)
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This is a problem? I thought rigged mesh with materials worked fine.
I think he's referring to rigged mesh's other shortcomings.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #371 (permalink)
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With all due respect, fuck you. I give LL all due credit when they do things right and I'll argue with people for days when they blame LL for things where LL has done the most they really can.
Awww, muffin.

You mean, when they do things right in your view. Heaven forbid they do things right according to their terms.



ETA: Meh, I'm being too harsh here. My apologies Penny.

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Old 06-24-2013, 11:48 AM   #372 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tonya Souther View Post
This is a problem? I thought rigged mesh with materials worked fine.
I mean arbitrary rigs of unattached meshes – the same stuff that would be used to create NPC critters.

ETA: I understand scripting materials was out of scope. The reason given for it being out of scope seemed, to my admittedly non-progammer sysadmin's ear, bogus, or at least inconsistent with the behavior of the rest of SL.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:51 PM   #373 (permalink)
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Will 'skin' be available to buy inworld ?
Unfortunately as far as I know the application of normal and specular maps can't be scripted so it's not currently possible to release a skin applicator for my deluxe droids like that. It'll be released as a stand alone avatar, possibly as a limited edition to raise money for American Cancer Society during Relay For Life.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:56 PM   #374 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Drongle View Post
Chip said: "SL only gives us a specular map and an overall glossiness value which effects the entire surface."

I don't know why you say that. The specular map ("Shininess") controls the colour of the specular reflection in the rgb channels, and the strength of the environmental reflection in the alpha channel. The alpha channel of the normal map controls the specular exponent (tightness of specular highlights).So all of these can vary within the map. The spinners you get when you choose the "shininess" texture are multipliers for the values taken from these alpha channels for specular exponent ("glossiness" = old shininess) and environmental reflection. The effects are only the same across the whole map if the relevant alpha channels are unvarying (e.g. by using blank texture).

Using a grayscale image for the specular ("shininess")map, with constant or no alpha, will only vary the intensity of white specular highlights, without affecting the exponent, and allows only contant environment reflection. So it is far from using the whole scope of variation available.

Here are some pictures. They are the same box prim with the same texture, same normal map making the blobs, same specular map. The normal and specular maps have alpha channels that are stripes with the values shown (0-255). The specular map rgb is all full bright white. First is with "glossiness"=100, "environment"=0, so only the specular exponent varies. Second is with "glossiness"=0, "environment"=100, so only the environment reflection is present and varies. Third one shows both varying, with he stripes at right angle to see all the combinations.
Oh awesome. Thank you for explaining that. I had no idea it was using the alpha channel of the normal as a gloss map. That will make things much easier!
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:46 PM   #375 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Here, Penny. From someone who worked on the project: See figure 1.
Yes the VMS documentation was a bit ... extensive.

I was using the docs to set up a shared printer queue once. I got distracted at the wrong moment and the mainframe that it was originally on suddenly did not have it at all.
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