SLUniverse Forums

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinţesă nină

i reckon people do that when they want to appear to know more than they actually do.
the last example of joshua doing this was when discussing opensim and whatnot a few weeks ago.

Go away troll.

WarKirby Magojiro · 03-05-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

I get that you think there's nothing wrong with people who have Asperger's. However those people represent a small fraction of everyone with autism,

Do you have a source for this statement, Josh? You've said it quite a few times. Forgive me if I missed the citation.

I'd like to see some real numbers on what percentage of autistics are classed as high or low functioning.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarKirby Magojiro

Do you have a source for this statement, Josh? You've said it quite a few times. Forgive me if I missed the citation.

I'd like to see some real numbers on what percentage of autistics are classed as high or low functioning.

Autism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Part of the problem is the wide range of symptoms for what is considered "high level functioning autism."

WarKirby Magojiro · 03-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

And if you noticed I came down on her for claiming Lalinda was Gareth's wife without any basis.

Oh, and Gareth. If you're willing to say, it would be nice to have some clarification on this point.

I understand if you're not willing to discuss personal matters though.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 09:35 PM

Most recent reviews tend to estimate a prevalence of 1–2 per 1,000 for autism and close to 6 per 1,000 for ASD;[4] because of inadequate data, these numbers may underestimate ASD's true prevalence.[81] PDD-NOS is the vast majority of ASD, Asperger's is about 0.3 per 1,000 and the remaining ASD forms are much rarer.[104] The number of reported cases of autism increased dramatically in the 1990s and early 2000s. This increase is largely attributable to changes in diagnostic practices, referral patterns, availability of services, age at diagnosis, and public awareness,[105] though as-yet-unidentified contributing environmental risk factors cannot be ruled out.[3] It is unknown whether autism's prevalence increased during the same period. An increase in prevalence would suggest directing more attention and funding toward changing environmental factors instead of continuing to focus on genetics.[47]

The citation at the bottom is:

Epidemiology of autistic disorder and other pervas...[J Clin Psychiatry. 2005] - PubMed Result

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

We're talking about you telling people who 1, haven't been formally diagnosed and are not seeing a doctor that they should continue not seeing a doctor, 2, are underage and clearly not being watched by their parents most of the time that your viewpoints on this subject are golden, and 3, you're manufacturing viewpoints that are not espoused by the organization you have a problem with and are not fairly or accurately representing them or their statements.

1 - I actually have never told someone "don't see a doctor". What I do say is that someone shouldn't bother with trying to get a formal diagnosis unless they need it for some reason, but I firmly object to anyone who espouses the anti-psychiatry viewpoint. Autism is not however a psychiatric disorder, hence the mixup. I can't stand when people lump AFF in with the whole evil pharmaceuticals conspiracy et al. I'm a firm supporter of the use of anti-depressants and anti-psychotics in appropriate circumstances (i.e to treat depression or psychosis), but I am also directly opposed to all forms of quackery. Autism-related quackery just happens to be the kind that directly affects me.

2 - Please cite where I tell anyone "my viewpoints alone are golden", especially minors. Merely posting said viewpoint when minors are present is not the same.

3 - Read my previous posts - everything i've said about autism speaks I have backed up with independent 3rd-party sources or their own website

Quote:

your stance does not enable someone who disagrees with you and WANTS to be "normal," whether you agree with them or not, the right to it. If you had your way even suggesting such a thing would not be allowed, and that's ultimately what I have a problem with.

That's taking things a bit far - If a cure was invented tomorrow I wouldn't go out and forcefully prevent people from taking it. I would however strongly urge people not to support it and protest it myself.

Quote:

And reading your forum you direct people to protest in whatever way they want anyone who disagrees with you. Down to individual people whether they support this organization or otherwise.

I love how you're talking as if i'm the only publically known autism rights activist. As for protests, please explain where the problem lies here. There are strict guidelines given to anyone who wishes to protest in AFF's name which ensure that everything is done in a legal manner. Before AFF, most autism rights activism took the form of websites and blogs. Now, as a result of AFF-supported protestors there's been growing awareness of the neurodiversity movement in the media and with curebie organisations themselves. To me this is a very good thing. There's still a long long road ahead but I now no longer have to fear that I will be one of the last generation of autistics by the time i'm an old man.

Ingrid · 03-05-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

3 - Many people who are diagnosed LFA (Lower Functioning Autism) in childhood later develop just fine.

What qualifies as "many". Do you have any links for me that would support this statement of yours? Because my friend with the autistic kid could use some good news. This boy is extremely developmentally delayed. As I said, he is 4 years old with the mental development level of a 9 month old and things are not improving.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

1 - I actually have never told someone "don't see a doctor". What I do say is that someone shouldn't bother with trying to get a formal diagnosis unless they need it for some reason, but I firmly object to anyone who espouses the anti-psychiatry viewpoint. Autism is not however a psychiatric disorder, hence the mixup. I can't stand when people lump AFF in with the whole evil pharmaceuticals conspiracy et al. I'm a firm supporter of the use of anti-depressants and anti-psychotics in appropriate circumstances (i.e to treat depression or psychosis), but I am also directly opposed to all forms of quackery. Autism-related quackery just happens to be the kind that directly affects me.

2 - Please cite where I tell anyone "my viewpoints alone are golden", especially minors. Merely posting said viewpoint when minors are present is not the same.

3 - Read my previous posts - everything i've said about autism speaks I have backed up with independent 3rd-party sources or their own website

That's taking things a bit far - If a cure was invented tomorrow I wouldn't go out and forcefully prevent people from taking it. I would however strongly urge people not to support it and protest it myself.

I love how you're talking as if i'm the only publically known autism rights activist. As for protests, please explain where the problem lies here. There are strict guidelines given to anyone who wishes to protest in AFF's name which ensure that everything is done in a legal manner. Before AFF, most autism rights activism took the form of websites and blogs. Now, as a result of AFF-supported protestors there's been growing awareness of the neurodiversity movement in the media and with curebie organisations themselves. To me this is a very good thing. There's still a long long road ahead but I now no longer have to fear that I will be one of the last generation of autistics by the time i'm an old man.

My point, which you don't seem to understand, is that you come down strongly against certain things, and as someone in a position of some authority whom other kids who don't feel like they fit in look up to in order to fit in, you're not going to have anyone argue or challenge you on any level of objectivity. However demurely you phrase your contempt.

They are coming some place where they want to be liked, and are too young to challenge someone they otherwise would consider to be an authority on the subject. Further when you have that "power" and are off directing them to protest something, however demurely, therein lies the problem. Yes, posting your point of view when impressionable children look up to you as a rolemodel is very much exactly the same thing. You have to take responsibility for that, and you haven't. I consider it appalling.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 09:57 PM

Self vs official diagnosis poll:
Self v. 'official' diagnosis for adults

Piles of adults discussing work issues:
Aspies For Freedom - Work Issues

All the parents (some of whom have their kids posting):
Aspies For Freedom - Parents

As for me saying something in front of minors who may look up to me, this would be a valid criticism IF the content of what I was saying was bad.

Should I never say anything in case a minor reads it and sees me as an authority on the subject?

You're clutching at straws here.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

Self vs official diagnosis poll:
Self v. 'official' diagnosis for adults

Piles of adults discussing work issues:
Aspies For Freedom - Work Issues

All the parents (some of whom have their kids posting):
Aspies For Freedom - Parents

As for me saying something in front of minors who may look up to me, this would be a valid criticism IF the content of what I was saying was bad.

Should I never say anything in case a minor reads it and sees me as an authority on the subject?

You're clutching at straws here.

When you're advancing a paranoid-delusional viewpoint that mainstream science rejects, when you're manufacturing a stance for an organization you don't support that has never been said by that organization, and when your viewpoints are wrong, yes, you should take more consideration in what you tell impressionable children. Cry about my straws all you'd like, I'm not on the fringe and it's not my responsibility to pull you around to my point of view.

You're also ignoring the more pertinent points. And now my curiosity is raised. Was Lalinda actually your wife?

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 10:15 PM

My wife's SL name is Amy Etoile. Go read profiles....

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 10:16 PM

That doesn't answer my question. And I'm not in-world at the moment.

A simple yes/no is sufficient if you don't mind.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 10:19 PM

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 10:19 PM

Thank you.

Ingrid · 03-05-2008, 10:21 PM

hello?

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 10:22 PM

(cooter)

Ingrid · 03-05-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

(cooter)

i suppose so...

Ewan Took · 03-06-2008, 10:55 AM

The next evolution argument is interesting!

Evolution doesn't necessarily mean advancing and getting better, some species have evolved by getting simpler and going backwards (tape worms!).

Evolution is caused by passing your genes on by mating. The person's characteristics that cause them to be more successful in mating than rivals get passed on and gradually the species will evolve with that person's characteristics.

What advantage do Asperger's have in getting mates? So some may have incredible talent in physics and maths, but if they are not mating more than non Asperger's people then it's not going to be the next evolution in humanity.

The 'X-Men' is a fun movie but fiction!

Gareth Nelson · 03-06-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan Took

The next evolution argument is interesting!

Evolution doesn't necessarily mean advancing and getting better, some species have evolved by getting simpler and going backwards (tape worms!).

Indeed, there is no grand plan for evolution, it's simply changes over time with no goal.

Quote:

Evolution is caused by passing your genes on by mating. The person's characteristics that cause them to be more successful in mating than rivals get passed on and gradually the species will evolve with that person's characteristics.

Read Simon Baron Cohen's views on associative mating, there are a few geographical autism clusters in places like silicon valley already, this does not mean of course that all of mankind is destined to be like the average silicon valley autistic geek though.

Quote:

What advantage do Asperger's have in getting mates? So some may have incredible talent in physics and maths, but if they are not mating more than non Asperger's people then it's not going to be the next evolution in humanity.

Also true

Quote:

The 'X-Men' is a fun movie but fiction!

It's fun indeed, though I did find quite a few comparisions in it to autism and other minority groups. Were it not for the comic books having a similar theme, i'd suspect the writers of being inspired heavily by the autism rights movement.

Funny fact: Back when AFF first started one guy liked to criticise me by comparing me to magneto, he failed to see the problem in comparing someone holding up a sign and handing out leaflets (as at the average AFF protest) and waging physical war on others (as magneto in the films does). The "can't tell fiction from reality" thing goes both ways.....

Joshua Nightshade · 03-06-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

It's fun indeed, though I did find quite a few comparisions in it to autism and other minority groups. Were it not for the comic books having a similar theme, i'd suspect the writers of being inspired heavily by the autism rights movement.

Except that it was based and heavily inspired by civil rights, not autism at all, sparky.

Quiplash · 03-07-2008, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Autism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Part of the problem is the wide range of symptoms for what is considered "high level functioning autism."

For the love of God, please do NOT quote from Wikipedia like it's the gospel truth. It contains articles who are written, edited, and rewritten by amateurs who may or may not be experts in their fields. It is a superlative resource for some topics that Encyclopedia Britannica can't touch, but in other areas it is full of crap.

Frankly, using any encyclopedia for the latest current status of research on autism, or any other topic, is a bad idea. You'd be best to go straight to the journal literature (as you did wth your PubMed reference), or perhaps a recently-published book, to get the latest picture of what's happening in a particular field such as autism.

The librarian has spoken

now I'll change hats...

This whole debate reminds me of nothing so much as the whole brouhaha about deaf-as-a-culture versus deaf-as-a-disease-that-must-be-treated. I used to think about deafness in the latter framework, but after I came out of the closet I suddenly had a VERY different viewpoint, because I looked at my gayness as gay-as-culture instead of gay-as-a-disease-that-must-be-cured. So I can kind of understand why deaf people, and high-functioning Asperbergers syndrome folk, choose to reframe their experience, and band together against "the other".

Frankly, all three just come down to a random spin of the genetics roulette wheel anyways.

I still believe that the fundamentalist fringes of these movements do and say things that are harmful to other people, and they should be taken to task for that. Having make the slow trek from conservative Lutheran to liberal agnostic/atheist/humanist/whatever myself, I can think of a few people whom I had idolized in my youth that I'd looove to go back and trade a few sharp words with.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-07-2008, 12:23 AM

I'm not interested in getting into another debate about the merit of Wikipedia.

I quoted the primary source for the statistic in the post as well, anyway.

Gareth Nelson · 03-07-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Except that it was based and heavily inspired by civil rights, not autism at all, sparky.

What do you think the autism rights movement is?

That's right - a subset of civil rights.

Gareth Nelson · 03-07-2008, 02:03 AM

Quiplash - Please don't make the deaf culture comparisions. Autism has both negatives and positives, deafness has just negatives (i.e lack

03-06-2008, 10:55 AM	#68 (permalink)
Ewan Took Numpty Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Scottish Isles Posts: 1,899 My Mood:	The next evolution argument is interesting! Evolution doesn't necessarily mean advancing and getting better, some species have evolved by getting simpler and going backwards (tape worms!). Evolution is caused by passing your genes on by mating. The person's characteristics that cause them to be more successful in mating than rivals get passed on and gradually the species will evolve with that person's characteristics. What advantage do Asperger's have in getting mates? So some may have incredible talent in physics and maths, but if they are not mating more than non Asperger's people then it's not going to be the next evolution in humanity. The 'X-Men' is a fun movie but fiction! __________________ "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."

03-05-2008, 09:35 PM	#55 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	Most recent reviews tend to estimate a prevalence of 1–2 per 1,000 for autism and close to 6 per 1,000 for ASD;[4] because of inadequate data, these numbers may underestimate ASD's true prevalence.[81] PDD-NOS is the vast majority of ASD, Asperger's is about 0.3 per 1,000 and the remaining ASD forms are much rarer.[104] The number of reported cases of autism increased dramatically in the 1990s and early 2000s. This increase is largely attributable to changes in diagnostic practices, referral patterns, availability of services, age at diagnosis, and public awareness,[105] though as-yet-unidentified contributing environmental risk factors cannot be ruled out.[3] It is unknown whether autism's prevalence increased during the same period. An increase in prevalence would suggest directing more attention and funding toward changing environmental factors instead of continuing to focus on genetics.[47] The citation at the bottom is: Epidemiology of autistic disorder and other pervas...[J Clin Psychiatry. 2005] - PubMed Result

03-05-2008, 09:57 PM	#59 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	Self vs official diagnosis poll: Self v. 'official' diagnosis for adults Piles of adults discussing work issues: Aspies For Freedom - Work Issues All the parents (some of whom have their kids posting): Aspies For Freedom - Parents As for me saying something in front of minors who may look up to me, this would be a valid criticism IF the content of what I was saying was bad. Should I never say anything in case a minor reads it and sees me as an authority on the subject? You're clutching at straws here.

03-05-2008, 10:15 PM	#61 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	My wife's SL name is Amy Etoile. Go read profiles....

03-05-2008, 10:16 PM	#62 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	That doesn't answer my question. And I'm not in-world at the moment. A simple yes/no is sufficient if you don't mind.

03-05-2008, 10:19 PM	#63 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	No

03-05-2008, 10:19 PM	#64 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	Thank you.

03-05-2008, 10:21 PM	#65 (permalink)
Ingrid archived Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,420 SLShopper Ads: 2 Awards: 1	hello?

03-05-2008, 10:22 PM	#66 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	(cooter)

03-07-2008, 12:23 AM	#72 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	I'm not interested in getting into another debate about the merit of Wikipedia. I quoted the primary source for the statistic in the post as well, anyway.

03-07-2008, 02:03 AM	#74 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	Quiplash - Please don't make the deaf culture comparisions. Autism has both negatives and positives, deafness has just negatives (i.e lack