SLUniverse Forums

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 06:40 PM

Man, I wish someone told me I was a cult leader, then I could get my followers to give up all their worldly possessions.

Well, I suppose i'll just have to sit around talking about murdering my children and raising money to get rid of their kind if I want to do anything cultish. Oh, wait.......

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 06:41 PM

Also to my understanding this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

I'll try not to derail the thread on this point but I was kicked off the opensim project for re-using UUIDs from the viewer (i.e long strings of hex numbers which are not copyrightable, ask the wine project about using such things), Adam then accused me of GPL tainting opensim and being annoyed already at the bloating codebase and decision to use .NET remoting I went off and forked. I'm now working on litesim from the ground up in python and it's much more lightweight.

is a complete fabrication, and I'm sure you'll understand me not taking your individual word over the many others involved.

Adam Zaius · 03-05-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

I'll try not to derail the thread on this point but I was kicked off the opensim project for re-using UUIDs from the viewer (i.e long strings of hex numbers which are not copyrightable, ask the wine project about using such things), Adam then accused me of GPL tainting opensim and being annoyed already at the bloating codebase and decision to use .NET remoting I went off and forked. I'm now working on litesim from the ground up in python and it's much more lightweight.

I wont get into a debate on this one, but it was more because you were studying from the SL viewer to make your contributions which is a big legal no-no. (something that has since been confirmed by three sets of Fortune-500 company lawyers). It was messy, and is one of the reasons the GPL sucks (something we're hoping LL will correct, long story).

Buuut, open source is open source - anyone can do what they want, we just have to be careful about redistribution.

How is litesim coming? (I haven't seen anything for like 6 months, didn't know you had rewritten in Python?)

(ps. I iznt Joshua's source)

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

Man, I wish someone told me I was a cult leader, then I could get my followers to give up all their worldly possessions.

Well, I suppose i'll just have to sit around talking about murdering my children and raising money to get rid of their kind if I want to do anything cultish. Oh, wait.......

Where in any of the Autism Speaks literature are they talking about killing you or your children or getting rid of any of you? To the best of my ability to discern the only thing I had a problem with was not allowing people with autism to be directly involved with the organization. Which seems disingenuous to me, I will readily acknowledge.

However the stance they have publicly and the stance you claim they have publicly are totally different. Extreme hyperbole on your part if not outright lying.

You're the only one making strange holocaust references. I'm also immediately suspect of any leader of an organization who immediately runs to cause conflict with anyone who disagrees with them and immediately runs to organize guerrilla protests. It's very reminiscent of PETA and just as boggling.

But hey thanks for taking time out of your schedule to respond to me directly.

Adam Zaius · 03-05-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Also to my understanding this

is a complete fabrication, and I'm sure you'll understand me not taking your individual word over the many others involved.

Uhh. I'd say that's fairly close to things - the exact nature of the copying is a bit more subtle, but what happened afterwards looks pretty right from what I've seen.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Zaius

Uhh. I'd say that's fairly close to things - the exact nature of the copying is a bit more subtle, but what happened afterwards looks pretty right from what I've seen.

Well not wanting to involve that facet of the wide world of Gareth I don't really want to get further into this because I don't want OpenSim to be further dragged into this.

I only mentioned it initially because Tenshi claimed Lalinda was Gareth's wife and she was able to rip content because Gareth is a developer on OpenSim. The latter part not being true at all.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Also to my understanding this

is a complete fabrication, and I'm sure you'll understand me not taking your individual word over the many others involved.

Would you care to say what the real reason I was kicked off the project was?

Why did adam zaius need to "clean up" the animation UUIDs at around the time I was kicked off the project?

Quote:

[gareth@lovely world]$ svn log AvatarAnimations.cs
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r876 | afrisby | 2007-06-03 23:28:15 +0100 (Sun, 03 Jun 2007) | 1 line

* Removed hard coded avatar animations. Will likely need to clean elsewhere to fully remove.

Siyu Suen · 03-05-2008, 06:56 PM

According to the DSM IV, in order to be diagnosed with anything at all it has to be "debilitating or interfering with negative effects in everyday life".

Just because a pill-pushing psychiatrist says you have something, and gives you a sense of being different and special and out of the ordinary, doesn't actually mean you're diagnosable according to the book. I think it's very wise to make that distinction, considering people have any number of random mental illnesses and abnormalities, but few find it a hindrance to their lives. I have severe ADHD compared to every book and diagnoses you'll find, and it's even effected my life, but it doesn't bother me when I want to heat up some chicken or something. My man has severe OCD, which does effect him, and means that we can't snuggle or he has to wear the same shirt for a week or that he can't leave the house to pick up the pizza. That is a hindrance and so he has been diagnosed and been put on medication before (though ever since he's been able to choose he's chosen not to).

I guess what I'm saying in the end is that being diagnosed with autism is supposed to be something different than simply having Asperger's or autistic traits. According to the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual it's supposed to only be diagnosable if it harms your everyday life.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

Would you care to say what the real reason I was kicked off the project was?

As I said before I am not comfortable getting further into this, and ultimately it is tangential to the discussion at hand.

You have a larger post directly about your organization to respond to instead. I'm not going to discuss OpenSim any more.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 06:59 PM

Sorry for having already responded before you there.......

Litesim is coming along slowly, got a lot on my plate so to speak and so sadly can't do my traditional 10-hour coding marathons anymore. As for the copyright issues, I agree that it's not something to debate here, so let's get back on topic......

Adam Zaius · 03-05-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

As for the copyright issues, I agree that it's not something to debate here, so let's get back on topic......

Sounds good. I'ma gonna back off this topic since I was giving it a wiiiiiide berth beforehand and intend to continue.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Where in any of the Autism Speaks literature are they talking about killing you or your children or getting rid of any of you? To the best of my ability to discern the only thing I had a problem with was not allowing people with autism to be directly involved with the organization. Which seems disingenuous to me, I will readily acknowledge.

However the stance they have publicly and the stance you claim they have publicly are totally different. Extreme hyperbole on your part if not outright lying.

You're the only one making strange holocaust references. I'm also immediately suspect of any leader of an organization who immediately runs to cause conflict with anyone who disagrees with them and immediately runs to organize guerrilla protests. It's very reminiscent of PETA and just as boggling.

But hey thanks for taking time out of your schedule to respond to me directly.

Did you read my comment on the herald? I cited numerous sources there including the classic "all parents of autistics think about killing them sometimes" references.

As to "immediately running to cause conflict" - there is a reason in this instance. I love SL, it's always been a traditional safe haven for many on the spectrum. What I do not want to see is for it to become filled with the same kind of anti-autistic propaganda that's all over the real world.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

Did you read my comment on the herald? I cited numerous sources there including the classic "all parents of autistics think about killing them sometimes" references.

As to "immediately running to cause conflict" - there is a reason in this instance. I love SL, it's always been a traditional safe haven for many on the spectrum. What I do not want to see is for it to become filled with the same kind of anti-autistic propaganda that's all over the real world.

I make a point of not reading the Herald much of any. If you want to cite sources it's best to do so here, where it pertains to this discussion.

I saw the video, and I never saw anything saying "all parents want to kill their autistic children" at all. What I saw was one parent explaining her frustration over the very difficult situation that is raising an autistic child, and her concern that she would not receive adequate care at that school.

My mom has remarked repeatedly to me that if she had known I would be gay when she was pregnant with me and she had the ability to change it, she would have. It's not a homophobic reflection on her part but because typically parents don't want their children to have a difficult life. They want them to be blessed, to excel and prosper, and to not face pain on the level that they did. It's not a statement that she hates gay people, it's a statement that she wanted the best for me and she feels that my life will be difficult in some respects because of that detail. While I disagree with her stance, I understand that it came from a place of love.

As to your opinion that most people diagnosed as lower-functioning autistics "grow out of it" or whatever, there's a whole host of variables to that that you can't even begin to make a blanket statement. How granular is your source? Are these people able to be more functional because of a lifetime of physical and psychological therapy? Drugs? Familial support? Education? Your statement seemed to suggest that they just got better with age, something that is very much at odds with my personal experience on this. As I said before I have an autistic cousin who can barely write his own name, and while I suppose that could be considered an improvement off of what he was as a child I don't think it's so great as to suggest all research and therapy be abandoned.

Ultimately while I understand that you feel like nothing is wrong with you, you are in the minority. There are others who clearly are not in the same shape as you, and as your other posters, and I think your organization and your position on this issue is irresponsible. Someone who is cognizant enough to say "I don't need help" is not who the target of these therapies is. Your demand that they all be abolished is offensive to me.

And SL was never a safe haven for anything. I reiterate my previous point, how many posters on your site have an accurate (real) diagnosis for their condition and aren't claiming it to fit in with your club?

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 07:22 PM

Here's what I posted on the herald:

Quote:

I will note that Violet missed a lot out here from what she asked in the interview, for example my explanation of WHY most of the biomed treatments are quackery and my disgust at how autism speaks spend millions on genetic research while nothing is spent on helping individual autistics by them. This is a fact as can be seen from their tax returns.
To date, I have not found any research or treatment that would help with sensory overload while not also completely crippling me (a sedative can wipe out sensory overload fast, but also of course induces drowsiness). Autism speaks has not apologised for the inflammatory rhetoric they make consistently, or even acknowledged the existence of the copycat murders following the release of "autism every day".
Autism every day was released on may 9th, on may 13th Katie Mccarron was murdered by her mother, in court her carers testified the mother thought that Katie's condition was getting worse just before the murder.
"Two young women took the stand during the last hour of the day. Both were to be full time caregivers for Katie, and both started working at the McCarron home the week before Katie’s death. Both testified McCarron conveyed to them that she thought Katie’s condition was getting worse. Both women said they thought Katie was in a much better condition than other autistic children they knew. " Central Illinois - CMS Admin
People looking at this case like to give sympathy to the mother saying "it must have been difficult", yet she had not been with her daughter for 20 months beforehand. CCDI | Coalition of Citizens with Disabilities in Illinois
The same article above has this:
McCarron reenacted for the prosecution how she put the bag over her Katie’s to kill her. McCarron said she didn't think she was killing her, but instead thought she was freeing Katie of autism. She also admitted she hated autism more than she loved her own daughter. In retrospect she testified it was quote "a sick, sick" choice. She said she had been depressed for months and had gone off her medication just a few weeks before Katie’s death. McCarron even admitted to trying to kill Katie three days before going through with it.
So, the day after autism every day was released, the first copycat murder was attempted.
And look at this guy:
Autism Speaks, In the News, Wrights Discuss Autism Research with Nobel Laureate
CSHL - CSHL Statement
Fury at DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners - Science, News - Independent.co.uk
I quote from the independent:
Watson and his co-discoverer Francis Crick failed to mention Franklin in their Nobel Prize acceptance speeches. But then it emerged that they had been given some of Franklin's findings without her permission or knowledge. One of Franklin's colleagues had shown Watson an extraordinary X-ray photograph she had taken which clearly showed the helical structure of DNA. "The instant I saw the picture my mouth fell open and my pulse began to race," Watson admitted much later.
But at the time Franklin went unacknowledged. Worse still, in his book The Double Helix, a gossipy account of the cracking of the code, Watson made derogatory remarks about her physical appearance, and painted her as a frigid, badly dressed and charmless bluestocking. She died four years before the Nobel Prize was awarded – from ovarian cancer at the age of just 37, possibly brought on by the constant radiation from her photography work.
Even now Watson talks of her with a brutal frankness. "She was just awkward," he said. "I think she was partially autistic."
Cure Autism Now (CAN) are one of the organisations that later merged into autism speaks, they funded a prenatal test for retts syndrome which is now used worldwide:
http://web.archive.org/web/200708161...189&ct=1814251
The board of directors made $2.7million in total in 2006.
The former corporate chair of the toronto branch of NAAR (National Alliance for Autism Research, who merged with Cure Autism Now into autism speaks) posting about how she withdrew her support of them following the tragic murder of Katie McCarron and started the autism acceptance project, one of the rare autism charities that has autistic board members:
The Joy of Autism: On Memory and Forgetting
Autism speaks also threatened to sue a 14 year old autistic and bullied them into surrendering the domain name ntspeaks.org for hosting a parody site there.
FARK.com: (3344313) Autism Speaks, a charity that claims to speak for autistic people sues 14-year-old autistic kid when she starts a parody website about autistic people being able to speak for themselves. K-Mart sucks
They aren't too concerned about turning to dirty tricks to attack the competition (in this incident a local autism charity that wanted to raise funds for services rather than genetic research):
Don't Tell the Donor.org: Turf battle erupts in Vermont over autism fundraising walk
And yes, their aim is indeed to eliminate autism from the human genepool:
"We are walking toward a future of hope, a future of promise, and a future when autism is not a daily struggle for millions of families but a word for the history books."
Autism Speaks, Get Involved, Our Events, Upcoming Events, A New Decade for Autism: Changing the Future Together
More totally un-acknowledged murders following "autism every day":
After a year in which Ulysses is the sixth autistic child to be killed by a loved one, I can no longer even summon up the rage I felt after Katie’s death, after Marcus’ death, after Christopher’s death, after Ryan’s death, after William’s death. All I have left is a deep sadness and pity for these children.
Autism Blog » Brutality for a burden : » Autism news and opinion
There's a lot more abusive actions they have taken in the past

I never claimed that all autistics "grow out of it", but I will note that a very large portion do develop just fine, contrary to the hysterical "your child will be permanently dependent on you" statements that many pro-cure people make.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

And SL was never a safe haven for anything. I reiterate my previous point, how many posters on your site have an accurate (real) diagnosis for their condition and aren't claiming it to fit in with your club?

I'm not in the habit of counting, but last time it was polled it was roughly 50/50.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 07:27 PM

So you have a handful of people who have killed their children, which would be deplorable at any rate, and you're using that as a springboard to blame the organization itself. Of that how many people specifically cited seeing that video and deciding to kill their kids? Can't they just be shit parents?

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gareth Nelson

I'm not in the habit of counting, but last time it was polled it was roughly 50/50.

So roughly half of your users do not have a legitimate diagnosis yet, as far as I can tell, post from the point of view of being autistic.

I would also be willing to bet if any of them went into a doctor's office who told them no, they aren't, they would call the doctor a liar.

As in I think it's very important for these people, many of whom seem to be underage to me, to fit in with the rest of your crowd. That you shepherd that along and very much take advantage of it, directly or accidentally. I think you have an impressionable lot of kids who likely don't feel like they fit in with their parents or at school and have somehow or another found your site, or other sites, and found a convenient list of symptoms and have decided they're autistic now.

I hope they grow out of it before they cause themselves real harm.

Hell when I was 13 I found a forum for psychics and was convinced I could read emotional patterns off of pieces of chalk BECAUSE I WAS THE NEXT STAGE OF HUMANITY TOO.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

So roughly half of your users do not have a legitimate diagnosis yet, as far as I can tell, post from the point of view of being autistic.

Many who are self-diagnosed later get an official diagnosis or decide that it's not worth it. Given the current state of affairs I would advise anyone to not get a diagnosis unless they needed one for a specific reason.

Quote:

I would also be willing to bet if any of them went into a doctor's office who told them no, they aren't, they would call the doctor a liar.

No doubt many would, but without knowing specifics on individuals it's difficult to render judgement on who would be in the wrong (them or the doctor)

Quote:

As in I think it's very important for these people, many of whom seem to be underage to me, to fit in with the rest of your crowd. That you shepherd that along and very much take advantage of it, directly or accidentally. I think you have an impressionable lot of kids who likely don't feel like they fit in with their parents or at school and have somehow or another found your site, or other sites, and found a convenient list of symptoms and have decided they're autistic now.

All age groups are represented on AFF, and I do not actively encourage anyone to self-diagnose. Most of the self-diagnosed people are adults, the kids tend to have official diagnoses.

Quote:

I hope they grow out of it before they cause themselves real harm.

Define "real harm"

Quote:

Hell when I was 13 I found a forum for psychics and was convinced I could read emotional patterns off of pieces of chalk BECAUSE I WAS THE NEXT STAGE OF HUMANITY TOO.

Please point out where I said that autism is the next stage of humanity, then i'll point out where I responded to such silliness and criticised it. This last statement of yours is quite underhanded and is yet another logical fallacy you're guilty of.

Joshua Nightshade · 03-05-2008, 08:04 PM

I think it is wholly irresponsible for you to allow any children at all, especially those who are not seeing a doctor, especially those who are not posting on your site without parent awareness, to be involved in your forum. If you don't understand how GROSSLY inappropriate it is for you to make any sort of psychological value judgments on impressionable children or push any aspect of your viewpoint on minors without experience necessary to decide things for themselves, then we're back to square one with me saying you aren't interested in "truth" but getting your way.

Are you a psychologist? Have you ever studied psychology? I rather think that's a no on both points. It is completely unacceptable for you to place yourself in charge of the mental state of children who have come to your site obviously because they are looking for some acceptance in their real lives. And after reading the forum all I can say is it SCREAMS to me that you manipulate things to ensure that your own stance gets fed into their heads. Your input is not objective nor unbiased, it's propaganda all right.

Gareth Nelson · 03-05-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

I think it is wholly irresponsible for you to allow any children at all, especially those who are not seeing a doctor, especially those who are not posting on your site without parent awareness, to be involved in your forum.

The same could be said of any site anywhere that allows minors to take part. I have on occassion had to ban minors who really were way too young to be online without supervision. The vast majority are in their teens and quite a few have parents posting too.

Quote:

If you don't understand how GROSSLY inappropriate it is for you to make any sort of psychological value judgments on impressionable children or push any aspect of your viewpoint on minors without experience necessary to decide things for themselves, then we're back to square one with me saying you aren't interested in "truth" but getting your way.

Please explain how I am "pushing my viewpoint onto minors". I find it ironic that you say this to someone who advocates not pushing a potential cure for autism onto minors simply because they can not give informed consent.

Quote:

Are you a psychologist? Have you ever studied psychology? I rather think that's a no on both points. It is completely unacceptable for you to place yourself in charge of the mental state of children who have come to your site obviously because they are looking for some acceptance in their real lives.

No, I have not formally studied psychology, though I am intimately familiar with the autistic spectrum (and yes, that includes LFAs - I have given talks in special educational schools on the subject of autism rights). I also do not place myself in charge of anyone's mental state - this is a rather nasty accusation in line with your "ZOMG! CULT LEADER!" hysteria. As for looking for acceptance, that is true. Just like any other minority group will have people who feel more comfortable amongst their own kind when they don't fit in elsewhere.

Quote:

And after reading the forum all I can say is it SCREAMS to me that you manipulate things to ensure that your own stance gets fed into their heads. Your input is not objective nor unbiased, it's propaganda all right.

Please cite where I actively manipulate things. My input is along the lines of "here's what action we can take against curebie X" and tech support relating to the forum or IRC network these days.

03-05-2008, 07:27 PM	#41 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	So you have a handful of people who have killed their children, which would be deplorable at any rate, and you're using that as a springboard to blame the organization itself. Of that how many people specifically cited seeing that video and deciding to kill their kids? Can't they just be shit parents? Last edited by Joshua Nightshade; 03-05-2008 at 07:32 PM.

03-05-2008, 06:40 PM	#26 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	Man, I wish someone told me I was a cult leader, then I could get my followers to give up all their worldly possessions. Well, I suppose i'll just have to sit around talking about murdering my children and raising money to get rid of their kind if I want to do anything cultish. Oh, wait.......

03-05-2008, 06:59 PM	#35 (permalink)
Gareth Nelson Nutjob Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: UK Posts: 48	Sorry for having already responded before you there....... Litesim is coming along slowly, got a lot on my plate so to speak and so sadly can't do my traditional 10-hour coding marathons anymore. As for the copyright issues, I agree that it's not something to debate here, so let's get back on topic......

03-05-2008, 08:04 PM	#44 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 22,229 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	I think it is wholly irresponsible for you to allow any children at all, especially those who are not seeing a doctor, especially those who are not posting on your site without parent awareness, to be involved in your forum. If you don't understand how GROSSLY inappropriate it is for you to make any sort of psychological value judgments on impressionable children or push any aspect of your viewpoint on minors without experience necessary to decide things for themselves, then we're back to square one with me saying you aren't interested in "truth" but getting your way. Are you a psychologist? Have you ever studied psychology? I rather think that's a no on both points. It is completely unacceptable for you to place yourself in charge of the mental state of children who have come to your site obviously because they are looking for some acceptance in their real lives. And after reading the forum all I can say is it SCREAMS to me that you manipulate things to ensure that your own stance gets fed into their heads. Your input is not objective nor unbiased, it's propaganda all right.