Nebula

So my old account which was banned with out reason, before I became a griefer out of rage of that happening, is still on the market place! It is still selling stuff! It sill deliverers, I checked! With just the rated sales alone, it is a ton of money that has been made. So why do I not get any of it, but better yet, why should people pay for products that I can no longer support and frankly do not find up to my standards. I have filed tickets for the account tons of times and gave up. So my main question is, if I have to, can I, or should I sue. I have lost money, but I do not think that this really is disruption of business, since sl has a TOS and it is their service. However, it really pisses me off that my stuff is still up there and selling.

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Kamilah Hauptmann

How the hell would anyone be able to file a takedown notice for that too?

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Samantha Fuller

That is an Idea, file a DMAC against your former account. Then LL has to take a position on who the account belongs to, is it yours or they have seized it.

Mark it as against John Doe in control of Account XXXX XXXX.

Tiffy Vella

Maybe, whenever LL actually decides upon a DD final cutoff date, and your account doesn't migrate over, things will sort themselves out? Will this sieve out all inactive accounts, do you think?

Anyway, it's rather scummy that LL don't want you, but will happily accept the profit from your store.

Jopsy Pendragon

IMHO:

1) LL isn't directly profiting from sales made by a dead account. I'm 99.9% certain the account balance for the banned account is growing and the L$ are staying right there. Though, it is possible that LL has slightly increased the number of L$ they manufacture out of thin air to sell for their own gain... presuming they're still able to do that without tanking the value of the L$.

2) LL doesn't hold the intellectual property rights for the content being sold on the marketplace. You should be able to tell them to remove your listings. Whether you can get their attention to do so, and prove that you're able to speak with authority for the banned account is another matter.

Brianna Ort

I understand the circulation of L$ for a purchase can take many twists and turns. But assume for a moment some portion of Nebula's creations' sales generate a direct deposit of real currency to buy the Lindens. I guess the ToS provides them protection, but wouldn't this be free money for LL? And ultimately if everything was traced, every other purchase coming from tier and memberships and buying frenzies?

Cash comes in, cash goes out, but not to Nebula.

Jopsy Pendragon

Well, the vast majority of the time when people buy L$, they're buying them from other residents. The only difference here is that since Nebula's account is banned, they're most definitely NOT buying L$ from Nebula. There's no cycle there, just a dead-end.

There is also, the matter of 'real money' purchases on the marketplace. Keep in mind that often the way these kinds of things work... if you buy something using real money instead of L$, LL isn't depositing the money into your account. They're putting the money into their own 'cash reserve' and increasing how much you can withdraw from that reserve.

It's theirs until we withdraw it. They probably don't even fund the that 'cash reserve' at 100% of the US$ owed to residents... they probably only fund it for what they expect residents will withdraw, and pocket the rest. Which is *fine*, honestly.... as long as they're solvent enough to cover cases when their cash reserve comes up short.

Not sure if that makes sense or not... sorry =)

Astolat Dufaux

I thought what he meant was that LL is still taking their percentage cut from every item his banned account is still selling on the Marketplace?

So even if they are technically holding onto the $L balance in his banned account, they are actively making money off his products, while he is not allowed to.



That sucks. I wish I had some advice for you, Nebula.

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Drew Bhalti

I would DCMA it too neb.

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Jopsy Pendragon

True... but those fees wouldn't have gone to Nebula in any case.

Nebula

Spoke to a lawyer today I may sue linden labs. The profits are within the 5 figure range, in the upper one. even with the commission that is some shit. Honestly I am REALLY PISSED. They can have the account I want my money.

Beebo Brink

Lindens aren't money. Fees paid through the Marketplace are a money sink, not a profit center. LL is not making anything from these sales.

Nebula is not collecting the money because that account is banned, which means he's reaping the logical consequences of the ban (whether the ban itself was valid is another issue). The only possible losers in all of this are the people who are buying his products and spending their money instead of getting something for free... but under the circumstances, they're getting a product that could have been taken down instead, so they get the benefit of its presence and presumably are happy with their purchase.

This is such a non-issue.

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Nebula

I cried over the support hot line and spent a hour of sob stories, things look like I am getting it back along with my space monies that I can turn into real ones. Then list everything for free as it should be at this point. All I can say is WOW SUPPORT IS SO MUCH BETTER! There was a live helpful person on the other end of the phone. Holy shit.

Siggy

The value of the L$ is a complicated minefield of legality that I was lucky enough to have an actual lawyer, versed in the field of virtual currency and intellectual property explain to me one SLCC (could have been Tampa.. but they blur) - we were both in our cups so there's a limit to how much I remember.... but the bottom line is that as far as LL are concerned the L$ is a 'game token' worth only the value other players put on it.

Their system is actually fairly well thought out and handled in order for that 'vision' to be presented in court should it be necessary...

So.. the L$ in the account aren't worth anything to the lab - they sell game tokens on the Lindex hot off the press - created from the aether... in order for them to be worth ANYTHING.. the owning player has to sell them to another player. This can't be done as ownership of those tokens was forfeit with the account ban.

Leaving the item out there.. that's not what I'd consider a cool thing to do - but CAN they do it? I know the TOS used to state they could use the any content for promotional purposes as they saw fit, what it says now I don't know.

Also - we really don't know the whole story anyways - Over the years I've come to think of SL like Shawshank Prison...it's just teeming with innocent people.

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And as it was in the beginning, so too shall it be in the end. That bullshit is bullshit, it just goes by different names.

cala

I feel for you, Nebula, but I agree with Beebo here. If your account was banned, likely for a valid reason, you can't access any services related to that account, including the L$ balance, even if it grows. I have been an advocate for the Marketplace automatically disabling storefronts for accounts that are disabled, but I also understand many situations under which an account gets disabled due to payment method problems (well documented here and elsewhere) which eventually get resolved. I don't know a great solution, but if your account was banned for a valid reason, you will NOT see those L$, nor, in my perspective, should you. My 2c. My opinions are my own and do not reflect on any current or prior employers.

Penny Patton

Regardless of the value of the linden dollar, or whether it is considered "money" or not, if my account were banned, for whatever reason, I would want my content removed from the marketplace.

It is my intellectual property and it is being sold, arguably by Linden Lab themselves.


Now, as for the side issue of LL profiting from it or not, my grasp of economics and the way L$ works probably isn't my strong point, but couldn't it be argued that LL does profit from sales made for content supplied by a banned account, indirectly? It is money being put into the economy that is not being pulled out.

Someone buys linden dollars, then buys from an active account, LL takes their cut and the seller takes their own, then the seller potentially sells that L$ off, removing actual, real world money from the SL economy.

In this case, someone buys linden dollars, uses them to purchase from a banned account, then that stays in the account, never to be cashed out. The real world money remains in LL's coffers.

That's my impression at least. Again, I consider this a side issue. I'd be more concerned about removing the content on IP grounds, and when I filed the DMCA I would file it with Linden Lab as the one distributing my content.

I'd say that would be well within the rights of even a justly banned account. You break the rules, you get banned. Sure, but it doesn't give LL the right to infringe your intellectual property rights in continuing to distribute that content.

That's my take. Thankfully it sounds as if it won't come to any of this, but it's interesting to think about.

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Nebula

It wasn't banned! I was on hold forever because I owed linden lab like 25 cents.

Saint Pipra of Peevington

I don't mean to belittle the trouble you've had with it as a result, but for some reason I'm finding that really amusing -- especially since if the account's been making all that money it clearly must have had at least a quarter's worth of Lindens in there! I'm guessing they never bothered to tell you it was in arrears?

Jopsy Pendragon

Arguably, if someone is banned or in arrears, their marketplace items should probably be automatically 'hidden'. There but inaccessible, unbuyable & unsearchable, until the suspension/ban/billing problem is resolved.

Jopsy Pendragon

... is that 5 figures US$ or L$ ?

Nebula

US and I lold, I wouldn't bother for small amounts of monies.

sallyanne

at 8.10 you said you talked to a lawyer and may sue linden labs, at 8.41 you came back and said you spent an hour on the phone to support something doesnt ad up

Penny Patton

You're assuming a person can't be on the phone to customer support and typing in a web forum at the same time.

sallyanne

not assuming nothing at 8.41 he would of been on the phone for 31mins not 1hr

Kamilah Hauptmann

You're out of your depth, champ.