Aribeth Zelin

I think having a name in two parts does let people have UNIQUE names that are easier than the unicode names so many people think are cool, and still allow for the display name to signify what you want to be called by [or if you are a roleplayer, changes to who the character is].

I don't know why some people are so against there being both. But when I need to address a student I'd prefer something in normal alphanumerics without the numerics. If its Matt423 then he becomes 'Matt' but maybe he'd have liked Matt + a last name, and then just 'Matt' for his display name? Or even Matt in nifty unicode, while the rest of us can go 'Hi Matt' easily.

And what about people who want to have a name in roman based characters for those who don't know their native alphabet - and then their name as it would be written in the display name.

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Penny Patton

My point with displaying both names is that it's confusing and unintuitive.

If I were a new user and I was told I would have both a username and a displayed name, I'd assume the username was hidden unless they told me otherwise, I might use something personal as my username with that expectation, then ragequit SL the moment I saw it was displayed to the world. I would not be back. Ever.

Assuming I didn't use personal info or the sign-up process explained that both were visibleo, I'd be confused that I couldn't seem to get rid of my username and get annoyed when people referred to me by it. Especially seeing as how limited username selection is.

Under the setup we have where usernames are not unique and can be unreadable (either foreign alphabet or illegible unicode characters) it's good to keep usernames visible, but that doesn't mean they need to be hovering over everyone's heads. Once you remove usernames from the nametags you realize, usernames are EVERYWHERE. You literally cannot not see them. They appear next to an avatar's display name in IM windows, pop-up messages, monetary and inventory transactions. You ALWAYS see usernames when you need to. You even see them when your mouse cursor is over someone's avatar for a second or two.

So given how redundant and confusing it is, and they boot group titles from the nametag (which leads some people to use them as a group tag because they don't realize they can check a box to bring group titles back, again confusing!) there is absolutely no reason to show both names in nametags and every reason not to.

And if, by some chance, someone wishes to have usernames in nametags, the option is right there in preferences to do so! No one is saying that option should be removed, just that it shouldn't be the default.

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Ayesha Lytton

Sorry Penny but no one I know has username display off. I know a few with display names off, but none who only want to see display names.

Having a first and last name system didn't eliminate numbers in names, but it greatly reduced them as well as the number of numbers. You may see a Joe1 Smith occasionally, but you rarely saw Joe54389056 Smith. People understood for the most part that they were choosing the name that they'd be known by. That is still the case with usernames and it needs to be made clear that choosing a good username and not some AOLtastic crap is important.

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eighthdwarf Checchinato

Why would you even assume this?
Display names are an opt-in extra. You don't have to choose a display name if you don't want to - and if you don't, all you have is your username. And if you don't set your viewer to show both names, then all what the name tags show YOU is either username only or display name only anyways.

Wrong.
If you don't want to be refered to by your username because it's embarrassing you, then you shouldn't have chosen such an embarrassing name to begin with.
Not everyone has their viewer set up to show display names. So deal with it, Mr joecock987654321 or Ms 0800f**ktoy - it's simply the consequence for your former lack of brain usage, back then when you came up with a name for your avatar.

fify
Isn't it up to every user, how they wish the names to be displayed on their screen? Some have set their viewer to username only, some to display name only, some to both names.
Actually, i've set my viewers to "show display name only" - and I've never seen usernames next to display names in IM windows since then.
The only times when i've seen usernames ("Legacy names") was 1) when people don't have a display name yet, 2) in pre-".resident" scripts that use legacy name only, and 3) in the IM tab itself, in pop-up messages, financial transactions and item offers.

Where are legacy names (or, usernames) obnoxious and confusing? The only obnoxious and confusing names in n ame tags are those illegible names in unicode crap fonts.If you don't want to see usernames in name tags, switch them off in Preferences -> General. Easy as that. Just because some people are too frigging stupid to differ group titles from display names, and too stupid to click on the "Groups" button, select a group, and click on "Activate" - you want to get rid of usernames altogether?

The better solution would be: TUTOR the noobs that they know how to activate and deactivate a group, and what can be set in the Preferences.
Oooh, right, you would have to have actual TUTORIALS in the Welcome Areas to make sure of that!

And there is also the option to select them off.

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Penny Patton

And I know plenty of people who turned usernames off entirely. Doesn't mean anything and doesn't dispute what I've said.

I agree with this. Under the current system it is much more difficult for someone to select a username they want. I still wouldn't go back to the old system, but there are other ways to discourage AOL style names and display names make it extremely easy to select a name you want.

eighthdwarf Checchinato

I also know plenty of them - that doen't mean though that legacy names are obsolete.

It's still easy, with a bit of creativity.
Why not? It was easy, and intuitive. Yes, there are:

• Disable the usage of digits (as in numbers) for names entirely, and
• bring back Lastnames.

Penny Patton

Because I'm a rational human being with prior experience in such matters to draw upon. Most people would come to the same conclusions.

Whether or not YOU would is immaterial and entirely irrelevant. LL wants new users, and they want new users to stay, making everything including your name overly complicated and unintuitive is not the way to do that.

You're not a people person and should never be in a customer facing position. We've established that. It doesn't make what I said incorrect.

My previous point stands. You are not approaching this from the perspective of getting people to stay in SL. Also, you're missing the point. I don't care what each and every individual chooses to show in nametages in their client. I'm only concerned about the default settings and given reasons why.

Yes, a typo. I'll have words with my editor.

See my previous point about not caring what individuals choose to show, just the defaults for reasons given.

You're not using the official viewer. I know some TPVs remove it (a decision I disagree with) but in the official viewer it's there.

Poor wording on my part, usernames aren't obnoxious and confusing, showing two names in the nametags by default is.
If you want to argue with me, at least argue with things I said not things you imagined I said.

Actual live tutors doesn't scale, it's no feasible, and even with automatic instructions on preferences, most people never change from the defaults. Actually, I do believe there are better solutions to what I'm suggesting, but they involve a different name system altogether.

No disagreement from me here.

My point was that neither of our anecdotal evidence meant anything. Neither does yours!

The problem isn't so much creativity as freedom. I don't simply want a name that sounds like a name, I want a name that I relate to.

It had its problems. It put off a lot of people and even among those who stayed in SL people wanted an alternative. And there are better alternatives, LL just chose one of the worst ways they could possibly approach the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the username/display name set up is flawless, but Rodvik has looked at alternatives and decided, for better or worse, that nothing could be done that would satisfy enough people to make investing in a new system justifiable. So given that the current system is what we have, there are better ways to present it to new users.

Ever notice in these threads how the people who, incorrectly, accuse me of wanting to take away people's options and freedoms are, in fact, the only people advocating doing exactly that?

I can see some wisdom in restricting numbers from names, but what if I want to create a robot avatar with a name similar to R2-D2 or Tetsujin 28?

That is not another way. That is, in fact, the same exact way I was responding to in saying there were other alternatives.

Here's one, at the name selection screen have both usernames and display names chosen. Above the username line explain that it is your login, but also the unchangeable name everyone else can see and confirm your identity by.

Above display names say, "This is your avatar's name, what you want people to call you by. Display names do not need to be unique so choose a name that suits your persona!"

eighthdwarf Checchinato

We haven't "established" anything. It's just you, stating your opinion. And it's a very incorrect at that.

For your info: since the Berlin Wall came down in RL in 1989, I've worked about 15 years in total in customer facing positions only. The other years were either temp jobs in the industry, or unemployment. "Should never be in a customer facing position"? Sorry, Penny,you hopefully understand that I'm a little miffed about your attempt of invalidating 3/4 of my CV.

And in SL, I've been a newbie tutor since Mid-June 2008, bilingual even - on both German and English-speaking Newbie areas - the only breaks was while I was away of SL for health reasons. And I've even readily answered questions in the particular help group channels WHILE I was roleplaying or building or shopping or just hanging out with friends. "Not a people person"?

You couldn't be farther away from the truth with either of your "established" statements.

Penny Patton

Just calling it as I see it.

Seriously, tho, we agree on plenty of other things, but on some topics, like this, you're just irrational. I mean, you are the one who posted this, these are your own words:

Good customer service isn't taking the position that the customer is an idiot not even worth helping just because they chose a username you don't approve of, especially given that for pretty any other virtual world, including MMOs and other videogame services, usernames are not what is seen on screen by others while you play, and there is absolutely nothing in the SL sign-up process to indicate that SL is different.

eighthdwarf Checchinato

There you see the main flaw that creates this misunderstanding in the first place.
I differ between games and virtual worlds, they're not even in the same category in my book.
Comparing virtual worlds like SL to MMOs and games is to me like comparing a workshop to a wrench, a playroom to a doll, a campus to a school book, a department store to oranges, a computer to Sudoku. But while you can find wrenches in a workshop, oranges in a department store, dolls in a playroom, school books in a campus, or the game Sudoku on a computer - that's not the only things you can find at either place, and you can find these things in other places as well.

You on the other hand seem to make absolute no difference, and seem to expect that virtual worlds have to follow the same rules you have seen on a dozen or more games and MMOs. But SL is neither a game, nor a MMO. Just like a department store isn't oranges, a computer isn't Sudoku, a workshop isn't a wrench, and a playroom isn't a doll.

And when someone enters a virtual world, they have to know that the name they choose as username WILL be the one they are refered to with, period. Its comparable to their birth name IRL, so they have to chose a reasonable name. And they better choose wisely. If they later complain about others refering to them by this name, because it's too embarrassing, not the others are to be blamed but the own lack of brain usage during the name creation is to be blamed.
It just isn't enough to rely on the opt-in non-unique display names that can be compared to eg. a nickname (like Gem instead of eighthdwarf Checchinato), family name (like Jane Doe-Miller instead of Jane Doe), RP character name (like Lady Alexandra con Kasra instead of Alexandra Actor), an opposite gender name (like John Doe instead of Joanna Doe) etc, that can in theory be changed weekly anyways, and isn't even seen by everyone: They better chose a reasonable username (better yet: "legacy name") matching a resident of a virtual world right from the very beginning.
And ICQ-numbers or AOL-like chatroom names like 12345joe67890 aren't NAMES, period.

Brenda Connolly

That may be a valid and true observation, but just because YOU see it that way doesn't mean everyone else does, or should for that matter. Most likely you are in a minority or at the very least not an overwhelming majority of SL users/potential users. A lot of people, like me when I joined SL, have no idea what an MMO or Virtual World is or what you are supposed to do with it. LL has to take all sorts of people, with all sorts of ideas and impressions into account if SL is to continue.

You hold true to your beliefs, which is admirable, but your absolutism and inflexibility is not a good thing in this case. Are you that much of an elitist that no one should be in SL if they don't see it the same way as you? Maybe every SL signup should be given a quiz on virtual worlds, and if the don't get it, should not be allowed to join. It may be your perfect virtual world, but I bet it would be a pretty empty one too.

BTW, I work in customer service to a degree in my job, and I felt you refusing to help someone who had a "stuoid name" to be a bit arrogant, if you are the helpful person you claim to be. It's somewhat analogous to refusing to help someone in RL because they aren't as educated or socially adjusted as you are.

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eighthdwarf Checchinato

What's elitist when I say that a virtual world is not a game, just like a department store is not an orange? You'll find everything in a department store, not only that one single orange. Quite the opposite, you'll see lots of different oranges (good ones and foul ones), and lots of other fruit and veggies, lots of other food, beverages and non-food in that store, right? And you also can see oranges outside of that department store, like on orange trees, or in other stores, or in households etc. Maybe you even have one in your hand right now.

No. It's rather somewhat analogous to refusing to repair a toaster when you work in a computer shop. Or, a better analogy: it's like refusing to help someone with their chores when you are at their house as their English tutor.

Brenda Connolly

The elitism is not in what you are saying in particular, but how you are coming across. It could be just a cultural misunderstanding, but throught out your posts such as this I get the impression that not only do you think SL should be ONLY what you percieve it to be, but also that anyone who doesn't see it your way has no right to be there. That's where the elitist perception appears, at least to me. I may be misreading you, apologies if I am.

As far as your second point...In a RL work situation, perhaps you have a point, but you claim to want to help people in SL. If you refused just because they have a silly name or some other arbitrary matter, perhaps you aren't the helper you claim to be. Also, even in the laughable scenario of me working in a computer shop, if someone did show up with a toaster and I knew how to fix it, I probably would. And if I were in someone's home as a tutor, and they really needed help with a chore and I had the time and ability, I'd do that as well.

Argent Stonecutter

If I were a Linden I would eliminate Display Names in a graduated process.

1. Eliminate any legacy code restricting the number of accounts a given user could have, subject to review in cases where someone has an army of alts.

2. Provide a user interface in your account page to check and update the various pieces of metadata that LL has associated with your account but doesn't let you change or in some cases even see, such as real name, email address, mailing and billing address.

3. Add the option of logging in with your email address or user number. The user number will be a 7-10 digit number, and can be used in cases where a user objects to or can't use an email address. If you have multiple accounts with the same email address, you will be given the opportunity to select which one you are going to use after you log in. You can continue to log in directly to the account as a shortcut, but this would be optional.

4. Allow people to create accounts with one or two names, selecting last names from a list by default but having the option to pick your own or none if you prefet... subject to obvious restrictions like "you can't have the last name of linden" and matched ignoring capitalization and spaces

5. After people are used to this, allow Unicode usernames using a subset of Unicode... possibly "any combination of characters in ISO8859 and a single national language plane", and add the option to change your username to any unused legitimate name. This will be free, once, and cost $10.00 every time you change it after that.

6. Once an account name has been changed to include any characters not easily enterable on all keyboards, you will have to log in with your email address or user number.

7. Eliminate display names because they are no longer needed, even by people who think they need them now.

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eighthdwarf Checchinato

Even if you weren't misreading me - which you, I think, are - how can being "elitist" be a bad thing?
Isn't standing out as #1 in particular NICHES much better than being just another one among thousands that follow the MAINSTREAM?

I mean, each new virtual world so far has been measured against SL, and has been compared to SL in all regards, and if it might become a competitor to SL (which no VW has ever managed yet) -- while new games, they are just one more game on the market unless they stand out, unless they are non-mainstream, unless they cover a NICHE market.

Brenda Connolly

Not always. If your niche is too small, you risk not gaining enough interest to survive in the market. Sometimes you have to compromise. LL has dodged many bullets because they have no viable competition even after all this time, despite shooting both their feet off along the way. All idealism aside, LL is a for profit business and SL is their, at this point at least, only product. Sooner or later, someone will figure out to make it work and be appealing to the general public, and that could be big trouble for SL.

Some things are mainstream for good reasons, usually because they're the best at what they do, appealing to a wide range of people. Mainstream doesn't always equal crap.

Coby Foden

Unfortunately this not a solution for bad, very hard to remember single word usernames so common in new accounts now. As the usernames are the unique ID for avatars they should be sensible and easy to remember names. Usernames with First name and Last name were exactly like this (unless a person specifically wanted create bad silly first name).

The grand idea with single word usernames and display names was to speed up account creation. It appears now that people are turned off as it is very time consuming to find a good single word username. Many just don't care and create a "junk" username which could be extremely hard for any other person to remember.

Rebel Television

I remember my "Resident" alt's name by using an anagram of Rebel. Coincidentally, Leber is a name that exists IRL, which is neat. It's also "liver" in German, which causes occasional confusion and/or laughs.

Penny Patton

But again, I'm talking about the best possible way to present the system we have, as Rodvik has stated it won't be changing.

In a perfect world I'd have had SL designed, from the start, around a system similar to what Argent suggested (not exactly, but similar).

Abdul

Won't be joining me in the Core Engineering team?
D;

Who here would completly ignore all of what people want and don't want and just focus on the most important task at hand; lagg?

Am I the only one who wants to make sim crossing be the same as walking around a sim and make it possible for a sim to have up to 5000 avatars all loaded with bad scripts and yet still not crash?


*does a sad face*

Penny Patton

Good luck with that.

Lag exists primarily because LL not only failed to do anything to try and encourage more optimal content creation, but gave us incomplete and broken tools which often discourage doing things in ways that would reduce lag.

And it's not just scripts. It's inefficient use of prims, overuse of sculpts, inefficient polygon heavy content actually having a lower "land impact" cost than highly optimized content, huge texture maps on everything, and many other issues.

It would take nothing short of miracles, magic and divine intervention to make SL lag free while still encouraging horribly unoptimized content.

Argent Stonecutter

I'm a programmer, not a magician.

OK, you could phase out Mono and go back to the stable LSO VM, and address the performance issues in LSO by improving the runtime so you don't have to spend so much time copying strings and lists and polling, you can just call native code functions. Oh, and bring in real arrays and hashes.

Coby Foden

How can there be the best possible way to present a flawed system? However well one tries to present it, we are still left with the terribly hard to remember usernames. Is this good? User ID, for which to remember, one has to have some higher degree in mnemonic techniques?

People can change their minds about hasty decisions even though they have stated something else earlier.

So, I'm still optimistic about a better username system. Like for example the original one, which was so unthoughtfully grabbed away in false hopes for faster account creation and higher user retention rates.

Penny Patton

Has there ever, in the history of the world, ever been a flawless system?

You can take a great system and run it into the ground by presenting it poorly.

You can take an awful system and make it work with the right approach.


Presenting it well, LL can encourage more memorable usernames, but even so do they really need to? It's an identifier, sure, but so are social security numbers. Do you know the SSN of everyone you've ever met? The driver's license number?

If you're in a situation where you absolutely need to be certain that the person using the display name you recognize is who they say they are, then you either don't know that person's username at all so the point is moot or you are familiar enough with it that even if you don't remember it completely you would recognize that a completely different username was not it.


According to Rodvik, the new system has contributed greatly to undeniably higher sign-up rates. I doubt it has affected retention either way.

The old system had its flaws too, but if the new system were better presented I honestly think it would be superior to the old, if still far from perfect.

Seyla Warden

If I were a Linden I would separate usernames from the avatar creation process altogether.

Usernames would be a log-in handle, shown to nobody but yourself. When initially creating your avatar you'd be prompted for an initial display name.

Would probably need a way to search by usernames in the weird case where there are multiple 'Argent Stonecutter' avatars but in that case you can just share your username with your friends, or friends' lists and item data would naturally point to the 'correct' one since behind the scenes it's locating them by username.

Fixes the problem some posters have about having two different names to display...

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