Joshua Nightshade

That's a revision, then. For some time it was.

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Andromeda Rage

I thought it was too. So I went a-searchin' for the relevant TOS bits, because Sal's request made me quirk an eyebrow, and I was about to post the same thing Viv did, but she beat me to it, heh.

Chandra Masala

For what purpose would you need access to someone else's account?

Memir Quinn

On first blush? It sounds as if hush has cleaned up all the evidence of the copying done by removing the bits of missed watermarks. Now Sal is either acting on his or her own (or as a proxy for Gala) and is trying to gather evidence of the copied skins where the missed watermark bits are still intact on a account from around that time.


If that's what the case has boiled down to that's pretty sad for Gala. Perhaps LL doesn't have the ability/capacity to provide the evidence needed to prove one way or the other or is unwilling.

Orc

I can't think of anything that can't be done by just having the person stand there with you for awhile. That's all you need if you want the textures. Can't think of a reason account details would be needed. When Gala called for the same thing she didn't ask for account info she just asked someone to stand there for an hour or so.

It's just a bad idea to ever give your account info out, even with a temporary password, even with a rarely used alt account. And it's not a good idea to ask for it. If you want the textures you don't need it. And what else could you want?

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Eliza Wrigglesworth

*Emphasis mine:

That's a pretty big supposition there. I seriously doubt Gala or Vakki have anything to do with Sal's request.

SalStrange

Hush has removed the original skins and demos from the grid as most of us expected to happen. The skins with the watermarks cannot be acquired by new accounts. That has no impact, to the best of my knowledge, on Linden Lab's ability to provide information about those images, their upload dates, and their owners when and if a court order makes it necessary.

I am going to provide some very minor additional information in what I'm sure will be a futile attempt to quell this sort of thing and then I'm not going to say anymore about it.

What I am attempting to do is simple information gathering. It is not illegal. It does not violate copyright or TOS. It is, however, the sort of thing a limited number of people can do. I am not going to out someone that is helping me by revealing their skillset for public consumption. Especially since this process may not bear fruit.

I am comfortable putting myself forward on the basis of my reputation and once someone establishes they have a genuine interest in being able to help, they will obviously be made aware of all parties involved and what's being attempted. I have zero interest in defending myself against anyone who is assuming I am lying or attempting to break the law and/or violate TOS. I am not addressing anything further of that nature, but feel free to go nuts.

However, I have the demos in question as do several people I know on their main accounts which are tied to personal information and billing information. For obvious reasons, no one wants the responsibility of tinkering about on someone's account under those circumstances if it can be helped. It's for the protection of those doing the research as much as the person who may be willing to offer up their account.

As far as I am aware, Linden Lab should still have a complete record if and when this goes to the subpoena stage, but that is between Linden Lab, Gala, Hush and their private counsel.

Should this project have any useful results, I will be making the information available to Gala. From that point, if and when more public information becomes available that will be completely dependent upon if she can use it to any benefit.

The UUIDs of the offending images have been verified by multiple third parties and they are up on a public site. No one, including me, has any reason to use another person's account for anything as simple as a texture export, nor would I ask anyone I didn't know to compromise their integrity in such a way. It would be redundant and silly.

I know that people can't help being curious. I know some people can't help but assign sinister motives. I can't help that. But I also need a neutral account that can be used as a guinea pig and so that's what I'm asking for.

Joshua Nightshade

With all due respect, you're posting on a forum with members who have been in SL since its private alpha, its closed beta, its first year, its first businesses and its first financial successes. You're posting on a forum with members who created content prior to the existence of custom animations, sculpts, flexiprims and mesh. Prior to the scripting extensibility we have today, and even prior to the L$ being tied to real money. In short: people who are acutely familiar with Second Life and not simply fashionistas.

In the face of that, and with my personal experience using SL, I'm really at a loss to think of something that requires inventory access but isn't illegal, violates copyright or the terms of service yet is so secretive that you can't simply say what it is you want to do. If only a limited number of people are capable of it (which, really, is probably not exactly accurate, given SL's limitations) then chances are you're posting in the presence of people who already know how. At minimum if it requires the exact asset in question and only a limited number of people are capable of doing it, there's no risk in someone doing something improper. Most of us here already know what GLIntercept is, it's not secret-circle knowledge.

At minimum, the request seems weird and really beyond your place to get involved on, and seems like a bit of braggadocio ("I can't possibly tell you what it is, only a few people know how and I don't dare out their identity!") on your part. And, to be frank, nothing encourages curiosity and suspicion like replying to "this seems a bit extraordinary" with condescension.

Really, just say what it is you want to do. Maybe someone's already done it, maybe someone else can tell you how to do it without using someone else's account, maybe someone can tell you it won't work anyway.

Or, you know, be vague.

Memir Quinn

Supposition is the one constant throughout this thread (a part from the principles involved) to be honest.


Sal? Good luck with your project, however if this is something you've taken upon yourself to do? Maybe talk to Gala and see if it is something she (and more important her lawyer) actually would appreciate you doing. Then if its something she desires she can ask of the community at large (not via a proxy). Otherwise yes, I think most would be hesitant (at best) to consider a request such as yours.

Charlotte Bartlett

I think also, and without knowing what you intend to do, it is best to have Gala agree prior to any attempt to get involved. Even the most innocent attempt to help may have a risk to her case. It is best to keep that integrity to her own choosing/based on legal counsel.

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Faithless Babii

I have mixed feelings about some review comments I saw left on Hush skins on the market place today...
I do agree with the sentiment...but..also it feels wrong that someone is doing it? I dunno...has anyone else seen them?
heres one:
Stolen & Sketchy!
I was interested in Hush skins, coming from someone who liked Curio forever, and some League skins...
It made sense when recently it came to light that Vixen (from Vixen Hairs) aka Hush Darkrose, has stolen parts of these skins from Curio and League. You can read more on Curio's webpage, but a quick google search will tell you all you needed to know.
This is sketchy, and especially so when you realise that when Hush Darkrose gets all her content taken down and removed from the grid... so will all that hard earned money you paid her for them. You're not entitled to a refund if and when her stolen content gets taken down.
Check out a more reputable skin dealer, and don't risk losing your hard earned L$ over stolen content.

Although so far, it all seems to point to hush skins being a copy of curio...nothing has been decreed by the authorities...and I do understand the intent of the remarks...to warn and highlight possible buyers ...but still..it feels wrong in some sort of way.

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KT Kingsley

I guess that could be a reason for wanting access to the accounts of people that owned hush skins.

Subodim

As long as Hush is making money by selling stolen skins, while the true creator is unable to stay in business because Hush had the audacity to file a claim against her, this issue should be publicized as much as possible. Everyone who is considering a purchase deserves fair warning. If a potential buyer doesn't believe the evidence against Hush and still wants to buy a skin from her, then the buyer is free to do that. In other words, the warnings will only hurt Hush if the buyer accepts the evidence against her, in which case, it's a good thing the buyer was warned. There's nothing wrong with helping people make informed choices.

Faithless Babii

Hi subodim
Yes I agree with you as to WHY it's been done - but I thought I'd made it clear in my OP that I did anyway?
The reason there was this nagging ugh factor for me about these reviews, was more to do with how it wasn't anyone's place to be kinda taking it upon themselves to do this, it just didn't have a great feeling about it , whereas what has been done & achieved by the community so far ie: one voice, does .

In a very small way , for me at least....this verges on bullying tactics, I don't think that's required to get the desired result..given the info many have highlighted already here & on other blogs...this "felt" not in the same positive spin.

pancake

I could relate, a bit, with your first post on this, because I too often get attacks of concious about various things, though not this case, not yet anyway.

Would I leave a review like the ones you mention?
No.
Do I have issue with others doing it? Not necessarily.

Granted, I haven't read them, so I can't say if I approve of them all, but I can see where a buyer beware situation or review does apply here. Knowing a product or a creator is involved in a legal dispute is something I'd want to know before purchasing the product, no matter who filed against who or what the accusations are. The thing is, if they get taken down and pulled from my inventory after I'd paid I'd be pissed.

So is a warning fair? I do feel so, though I'm sure some of the wording choices could be improved, but that could be just my own sensibilities. Like you, I sometimes get a wince of discomfort about things others seem perfectly fine with.

Having said all that, you lost me with your second post when you used the word bully tactics.

I'm really, really, REALLY, tired of the word bully getting tossed around in SL in general, and particularly in this case.

You had me until then though.

ETA: I'm sorry, but I do wish you'd chosen another way to describe it because traditionally most cases in SL where I hear the "bully tactics" line, is someone unable to cope with the drama bomb they themselves started and playing the victim card. Other times, it's an absurd use of the term to describe a simple disagreement or difference of opinion. Bullying is serious, and people who use the term or accusation carelessly or trivially are almost never going to rally me to their side, in fact quite often the opposite. When it comes to this case, the term bully triggers a VERY strong negative reaction in me, even if I may have originall related to the discussion point.

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Faithless Babii

Youre right pancake...bullying was a poor choice to express how those reviews effected me..Im not wordsmith for sure...and I couldnt work out in my head why those reviews made me cringe...but after seeing your reply...I think its because its just not something Id feel comfy doing myself.

One Voice supported gala in a very public, positive way...leaving these sort of reviews...even though I agree people should make an informed choice...just didnt have that feel good factor about them.

SalStrange

I think there's something democratic in all of us that naturally wants to give all sides a fair hearing. And it sets off our warning bells when things are tipped too far in either direction. And, of course, there's that tiny part of us that sort of identifies with the "bad guy" -- at least in the American mindset. We've romanticized bank robbers and gangsters for decades.

In most he-said / she-said situations like this, I think the majority of people would either not care or pull for the middle, with small gangs of supporters on either side and that's kind of what we're used to. And, let's face it, if those images with the watermarks didn't exist, that's all this situation might have become. A little less laziness in Photoshop and we might never have known one way or the other.

But sometimes circumstances aren't even. No matter how much we want to be fair if one person is demonstrating an enormous amount of guilt and one person isn't, trying to force a balance, however natural to our natures, doesn't align with reality.

Like pancake, I wish the person (or people) making the comments would phrase things better, but the whole point of community based review systems is so consumers can be informed by the community. Skins are a high dollar item. If I'm going to drop L$1k+ on a single purchase and I'm bothering to read the reviews, then I'm looking for someone to tell me if an item is mired in controversy and may be a bad investment as much as I'm looking for details about seams not matching up or bad highlighting on the bum.

I do understand the queasy feeling we get when something is presented uneven, but in this case it really is the circumstances and common sense demonstrating that one person is so obviously in the wrong for many of us, not a mere popularity contest between two sides of she-said / she-said. I think that's why some people are more comfortable being more forceful and vocal than they otherwise would be. They recognize this situation as an attack against the format where they work and play as much as it is also an attack against Gala.

pancake

I remember the Red Zone situation, and how strongly I felt and still feel about online privacy, but I also recall certain times when I was very uncomfortable with the other sides tactics, and some of what got posted here as well.

I actually had an upset stomach when people started posting RL information, his name or maybe facebook pics I think it was, about the individual in question. Sure Red Zone scared me, and I hated it, but... I was getting squeamish for a while there.

The thing is, we all have our own moral barometer, a go and no go line that we really have little control over. It's an embedded part of our personality. It's just important to note that we aren't all built the same.

Now, that's not to say there aren't times and places to voice that discomfort, to say "hang on a second here guys... I'm uncomfortable with this" and that's always risky especially in a situation with a lot of passion or tension, so I appreciate how hard it must have been for you to say that. Sometimes the pause we create when we voice our own personal discomfort can slow down the momentum that fuels some of these things, but sometimes not, and it's important that you don't make that your baggage to carry if it doesn't.

Subodim

Hi. I realized that you and I agreed on "why" it was done. I was addressing your remark, "it feels wrong that someone is doing it." I was trying to explain why I don't think it is wrong. I wouldn't write reviews like that myself; I'd feel like I was overstepping my bounds in a fight that does not directly involve me if I took direct shots at Hush on her own product page, as opposed to showing my support at One Voice and participating in this message thread. But seeing other people write those reviews does not make me feel uncomfortable.

In other words, I seem to share the same opinion expressed by a few other people here: "I wouldn't do it myself, but I don't think it's wrong."

Katian

Still trying to catch up on this thread! But kind of OT and a little in Topic. There's a new copybotter out stealing skins. Can you match the skins to the creator?

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/116873

I contacted one creator and found out yes one was copybotted :/

Faithless Babii

yes...Ive come to that conclusion , agreed. I just couldnt put my finger on why it made me feel a little *ugh*...but pancake hit the nail on the head....as do you...it is because...I just wouldnt do that myself...although..I can see why it was done.

Tiffy Vella

I see quite a few comments in the reviews for Hush'es items, and like you guys, probably wouldn't do that myself (yes it feels a bit "icky" to me too, a feeling that sadly hush Darkrose is not at all familiar with). But I'm a bit glad to see a bit of truth appearing in the comments, to offset the "OMG OMG OMG These are super-cute!!!" comments which have an even bigger ick factor to them.

Circle Widdershins

I'm quite glad to see that there are comments on MP. The amount of people on the grid who read blogs or knew about the One Voice event are very much the minority. At least with comments like these the information is being spread a bit further and people can be a little better informed when they decide to make a purchase or not. It will only influence the undecided of course, but the more people that know about the controversy the better, imo.

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Cristiano We need to make 'endless celestial sex' into a thing.

Eata

Don't go around giving anyone access to your account.

Eric Knox

If the theft is proven, someone's going to jail AND getting sued, I hope!