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Old 03-28-2012, 09:34 AM   #501 (permalink)
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Just had a quick glance at it, and I'm not sure exactly how much has changed, but the post certainly looks like it's been edited. I'm guessing they edited it and republished. The old apology url seems to be giving me a nothing here message.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:35 AM   #502 (permalink)
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The original post...
The Fashion for Life 2012 Blogger Hall of Shame | Associated SL Press

hasn't been changed. It's the one I used on my blog, so checked it from there.

The MEA not really CULPA one, I can only see that the date has changed. And seriously too dumb to draw any conclusions except that somebody has been tinkering with something.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:47 AM   #503 (permalink)
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The only obvious edit I can see is that the spelling of Rusalka is now right. I have a pretty good memory for texts (can't think why) and without comparing the two side to side, nothing else jumps out at me.

The bits I cut and pasted directly to this thread still seem to be there, this part being one I would have though was a candidate for an edit

" I apologize to the ones I named who’d posted and somehow I missed seeing that there was an FFL item buried in one of the posts they made (although one of my evil friends suggested that it is as easy for them to edit a blog as it is for me. I won’t be following up on this idea though)."

So it could be simply that is was bumped when somebody (Rusalka?) corrected her own name?

Also, the link under one of Blady's posts still takes me to the article.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #504 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ariadne Korda View Post
Blady? Just... ouch. Sid's approach at work is *male* arrogance HOW? I've seen plenty of women take a similar approach. And using the word "underlings" is giving the whole thing a skew that is really out of line (well, as I see it).

Much as I appreciated your stance on this at first, your derail into imagined gender issues is - for me - rather a shame.
You are confused about who shamefully derailed. You can cheerleader Da5id's stance all you want. But that in no way negates my feelings about how he addressed me. And I do not care if you interpreted his posts to me as I interpreted them. Nor am I concerned that you didn't like my reply to him. When someone purposely goes off topic to make negative personal comments about me, I will respond to them anyway I see fit. And it is absolutely none of your business. If he wasn't seeking negative attention from me (several times) he would not have gotten it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #505 (permalink)
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Yeah, when I had a quick look at it I thought the bit I quoted before had been nuked... read it again alongside the notecard version and found it again *facepaws herself*

So yeah, maybe a spelling error got picked up and the post was republished the following day. Which does break links, but also makes it re-appear for a second day if you were following their feeds. It would help if they'd wanted to stir up this drama to get some publicity and hits, but I don't want to guess what their intentions were.
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #506 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ariadne Korda View Post
Also, the link under one of Blady's posts still takes me to the article.
I actually had to edit that link because Nave's post was moved. I think they have their own definition of journalistic integrity over at that website.

When I commented "I see you deleted me reply to you and edited your post". That was deleted so they could continue to pretend that they don't edit after publishing. Which, of course, is a lie.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:08 AM   #507 (permalink)
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When someone purposely goes off topic to make negative personal comments about me, I will respond to them anyway I see fit. And it is absolutely none of your business. If he wasn't seeking negative attention from me (several times) he would not have gotten it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:09 AM   #508 (permalink)
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It's clear that Harper did err with the "tsk"-list, to which she's admitted, and for which she's apologized (genuinely, to my ear, and uniquely so in this incident).
I don't know about that. All she claimed was that she was exhausted when she did it and made a mistake. There is no insight into how that thought goes from her exhausted mind to being a list published on the FFL website without anyone in that organization being aware that it was going to be published before it was.

She just doesn't want to tell the truth about how many people within FFL were aware of her actions prior to the shit hitting the fan. And, I don't believe she was the one who took on the task of contacting each blogger on the list to make sure they knew they were being publicly shamed and blacklisted.

I think it's a little naive to believe this was done in secret, with the prior knowledge of no one by one rogue member of FFL because she was tired.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:16 AM   #509 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bladyblue View Post
I don't know about that. All she claimed was that she was exhausted when she did it and made a mistake. There is no insight into how that thought goes from her exhausted mind to being a list published on the FFL website without anyone in that organization being aware that it was going to be published before it was.

She just doesn't want to tell the truth about how many people within FFL were aware of her actions prior to the shit hitting the fan. And, I don't believe she was the one who took on the task of contacting each blogger on the list to make sure they knew they were being publicly shamed and blacklisted.

I think it's a little naive to believe this was done in secret, with the prior knowledge of no one by one rogue member of FFL because she was tired.
Oh dear here I go agreeing with you again

I said early on in this thread that I wonder how that list got to Nave in the first place, and didn't expect an answer although Dancien gave some interesting pointers.

I still wonder WHY it was given to Nave; if it was just for info, what's the point? No, to me it was because either he wanted it so he could do his oh-so-edgy-post, or it was suggested (by somebody) that "somebody" did a post on it and he stood up and said 'me! me!'
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:29 AM   #510 (permalink)
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Yeah, and I don't believe she and Nave were running around giggling in their hands keeping this evil little secret from everyone at FFL, BoSL and the SL Associated Press.

The maligned bloggers know who from FFL 'officially' contacted them to let them know that they were on the shame list. And I believe it was not the author of the shame list.

That is why it is not such a great leap to see that it is a systemic problem within FFL and not a unique case of one overworked staff person.

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Old 03-28-2012, 10:40 AM   #511 (permalink)
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The maligned bloggers were contacted once the list was up, giving them a link. And not by Navel-Gazer.

Not sure whose idea *that* was either, but I suppose it *could* have been just another of those BoSL people with Bright Ideas, after the fact;

Or was there anything as logical as a meeting about the whole thing to decide who did what?

I still find it hard to believe that the amazing experienced editor in chief didn't get to see that article before it went out - if she didn't, what's the point of having one anyway?

There are so, so many questions. Harper seems to have handled it better than some, but there are still so many things that don't tie up.

Moral of the story, however: if you run a 'joint blog' of any sort, confer before releasing a potential bomb so you get your stories sorted out before you set it off, and who handles what.

Are these people honestly too stupid to see what a bomb that WAS? And not to realise that it would only take one maligned blogger to find it pretty disgusting?

I'm starting to wonder.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:15 PM   #512 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne Korda View Post
Are these people honestly too stupid to see what a bomb that WAS? And not to realise that it would only take one maligned blogger to find it pretty disgusting?

I'm starting to wonder.
exactly. An organization that gives a green light to publicly shaming charity volunteers is not being run by people with enough intelligence to handle the responsibility of coordinating volunteers.

I see people posting what a wonderful, caring person the author of the shame list is. It seems FFL has become a cult of personality around this person and she is being used by FFL to deflect attention away from everyone else involved in the publication of that list.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:21 PM   #513 (permalink)
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I think it's a little naive to believe this was done in secret, with the prior knowledge of no one by one rogue member of FFL because she was tired.
Really? You don't think Harper just dumped the list on the site herself, but instead there was enough FFL structure that somebody else existed for Harper to show it to first?

I guess that's possible, but my mental model of FFL organization is not nearly so grand.

Also, I haven't been assuming that the list was explicitly given to BoSL, as opposed to somebody (Nave? Rusalka?) picking it up from the FFL feed and running with it like good little make-believe journalists.

Again, it's certainly possible that something more coordinated happened. It's just that, the more coordination/structure/rigor that was involved, the more likely somebody would see the Big Red Flashing Danger Sign and prevent the disaster from ever unfolding.

Unless, of course, that whole rigorous coordinated structure was in on the conspiracy to... uh... what? What could they gain from all this?
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:48 PM   #514 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ariadne Korda View Post
The maligned bloggers were contacted once the list was up, giving them a link. And not by Navel-Gazer.
Point of fact: It was Quella Quan who IMed me, no explanation, just the link. I initially had no idea who she was or why she would want to. it took a while to get that she was involved with BoSL.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:09 PM   #515 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Qie Niangao View Post
Really? You don't think Harper just dumped the list on the site herself, but instead there was enough FFL structure that somebody else existed for Harper to show it to first?

I guess that's possible, but my mental model of FFL organization is not nearly so grand.
I don't see how one person can be given carde blanc to go ahead and get that from her ban and onto the website without at least one other person in FFL being aware of it before it was posted.

Recall the hidden videos of the grassroots publicly funded home ownership organization that had its employees telling a pimp and his prostitute how to submit fraudulent information in order to be eligible for the money from the agency. Upon further investigation, it was proven that the corruption did not start and end with those two employees. The agency lost a lot of public funding and, I believe, was forced to close down entirely.

No one got away with just saying "oops, I was sleepy". Thats ridiculous. I think people are willing to give FFL a pass on this because in their minds its just make-believe money in a fantasy world on the internet. But we all know that it is much more than that.

The fact that RFL and FFL have released NO statements about this is a definite sign that they have something to hide.

Quote:
Also, I haven't been assuming that the list was explicitly given to BoSL, as opposed to somebody (Nave? Rusalka?) picking it up from the FFL feed and running with it like good little make-believe journalists.
Oh, I dont think anyone gave him the list either. I think he saw it on FFL, wanted to get a few brownie points from brown nosing, and he published it at BoSL. Also, he seems to enjoy belittling people to increase his superiority, so it was a win-win to him.

Quote:
Again, it's certainly possible that something more coordinated happened. It's just that, the more coordination/structure/rigor that was involved, the more likely somebody would see the Big Red Flashing Danger Sign and prevent the disaster from ever unfolding.
IF it wasn't approved in the first place. If FFL or RFL makes an official statement about this (they won't), they would have to either throw the author of the shame list under the bus or take responsibility and promise to make changes.

Quote:
Unless, of course, that whole rigorous coordinated structure was in on the conspiracy to... uh... what? What could they gain from all this?
It's what Ann OToole pointed out: People that start believing their SL Celebrity status and begin to believe they are doing everyone a favor by even acknowledging them. They forgot that FFL is suppose to thank the volunteers, not chastise them.

What else is FFL doing because they believe they are so much more fabulous than everyone else, so they do not have account for their actions?

It's all about an organization who's collective ego got too big for their own good. And they are still not going to admit it or tell anyone how they will make sure no crazy people post hate mail on their website again.

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Old 03-28-2012, 02:14 PM   #516 (permalink)
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i think bosl likes to rub their dicks in faces, which is typical, that aside there is nothing left here except people trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:19 PM   #517 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Point of fact: It was Quella Quan who IMed me, no explanation, just the link. I initially had no idea who she was or why she would want to. it took a while to get that she was involved with BoSL.
Thanks for the info. Maybe the task of contacting the maligned bloggers was passed on from the original FFL author to her favorite errand boy over at BoSL, who then passed it on to his eager patsy, Quella. I don't think we are ever going to hear a truthful timeline from anyone. They have circled their wagons on this. Most of them have already dismissed the controversy as just trolls and thrill-seekers looking for something to talk about. They honestly feel they are all above criticism from people not within their group (Nave told me I had no reason to complain because I had nothing to do with it).

None of them understand that when they solicit thousands of real dollars from the public, the public has a reason to complain when they do something wrong and refuse to admit it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 02:22 PM   #518 (permalink)
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i think bosl likes to rub their dicks in faces, which is typical, that aside there is nothing left here except people trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Systemic corruption always starts off as a mole hill. If "I was exhausted. Sorry" works for you, then that's fantastic.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:08 PM   #519 (permalink)
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You support your wife, if she had to do it on her own, without support, I doubt she'd be able to give that money or time.

There are many creators in SL who can't afford to give much of their money or time, and when RFL events essentially take over everything for several months of the year, many creators are missing money at the end of the day to pay bills. Many have talked about it to me, I'm not unaware.

It was a guilt trip, although it may not have been intended to be such. I know she has medical issues. Many people here do, is my point, and many more don't have much in the way of support. I'm not seeing ACS stepping up to the plate to help them either. Most of that money will never trickle down to the bottom.

Be happy you've got each other. It's more than a lot of people have.
There was no guilt trip, sorry. I am happy we have each other, and I'm sorry for your problems. But your insistence that you know what she was doing needs to stop.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:48 PM   #520 (permalink)
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Unless, of course, that whole rigorous coordinated structure was in on the conspiracy to... uh... what? What could they gain from all this?
And that's an important point. I still fail to see wtf Harper or any ominous inner FFL-circle could have gained from all this mess.

From all I know they were happy with the outcome of the Fair. The donations topped last year's FFL, coverage was great, I didn't hear -any- negative criticism. I don't know their internal debates, but at least to the public everything looked perfectly fine, there was no need to find a scapegoat, no need to point fingers.

I -can- imagine a scenario like the following:
She had that list up (actually, I think a list of supporting bloggers existed from the beginning on that website). After the event she decided for some reason that she wanted to remove those who didn't blog - like "why should i give them free promotion for their blogs".

She had (incomplete) data at hand cause the bloggers usually linked to their blogs. Poor judgment, a little bitchiness - and then the crucial mistake not only to remove them, but to -show- them that they "didn't deliver as expected" and to wiggle her index finger with that 'tsk'. Nave could have picked up the list from the FFL-site. Or maybe they even talked about it, and she still wasn't aware what she was doing.

Unlike Harper, Nave -had- a motive. Drama, traffic, attention. I don't get this mentality, but it's obvious from the first post how much he enjoys just that. And with all that coquettish 'I didn't want to do it' he makes clear that he knew exactly what he was starting.

Of course. that s just a theory. I don't really know Harper, only from some business-related IMs before and during the fair and from FFL-group-chat. But what I read from her simply does not fit to a malicious, unnecessary and unprofessional conspiracy against bloggers (and i like conspiracy-theories! especially when they involve the number 23!).

And frankly, I have been long enough in SL (and on the interwebs in general) not to give anything about chat logs from third parties when they conveniently appear in the heat of a debate. Unless i really know and trust the source. (And those I trust are for some reason -never- involved in any fashionista-drama). Even when chat logs aren't faked, it's so easy to misinterpret them or to take them out of context. I have seen my own words turned around and given a completely different meaning. In this case, we don't even know the log, we only know how one person would interpret it. so, sorry, to me it does not exist.

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Old 03-28-2012, 11:35 PM   #521 (permalink)
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I didn't know anyone presented any alleged Harper chat logs anywhere.
But I think we heard all we are going to hear from Harper on this. Obviously FFL has decided her statement relieved them of any culpability.

And I see ACS posted in this forum today to announce a new silk for sale. All sales will go to RFL for cancer research.

So, obviously these organizations have decided to just go back to business as usual and pretend nothing happened.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:02 AM   #522 (permalink)
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You support your wife, if she had to do it on her own, without support, I doubt she'd be able to give that money or time.
Actually no. I would be doing this even if Tracer was still working his job as a pizza guy. It would supplement my disability income. Sorry you are having a bit of jealousy over it.

You feel guilty for a comment that wasn't addressed at you OR TO YOU other than you saying we should be doing this IRL and me saying I COULDN'T do it IRL. I was mainly talking about Nave's little dig at bloggers over something they didn't even sign a contract to do. It was supposed to be FOR THE GOOD OF SOCIETY. For some reason you need to feel I am 'personally' attacking you. I mean, NOW I am. But I wasn't.

Also, what part of "I made some makeups that sold for 400 USD with all the money going to the ACS" did you not get? And you know what? I would have done it again even if I wasn't with Tracer IRL. Because that's what you do, you try to do good things for people if you want the world to be a better place than it was yesterday. And that's what my purpose in life is. so Keep saying I am doing something I didn't do. I will keep stating the truth.

And seriously, what the hell did I do to you to deserve your ire? Nevermind, you aren't going to change your mind about what I 'did' and it doesn't really matter anyway. *hug*

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Old 03-29-2012, 03:03 AM   #523 (permalink)
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Just one final thing to add - and really, this is it for me and this whole thread, because I don't think anything more can be brought out of this - I had a completely unqualified in-world apology from Nave Fall this morning.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:09 AM   #524 (permalink)
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I hope the apology helps a little, but the whole thing is a shame.

I've been reading carefully through all this. Among other things, I'm a volunteer coordinator for a charity (RL), and the *most important thing* about volunteers is that anything a volunteer does is *voluntary*, by definition (big duh, there) and is greatly appreciated. Anything a volunteer doesn't do is not a negative! There are no plus and minus columns, no shame, no subtraction of appreciation. The point is for many people to help out a little, which adds up to a lot, not to rate, judge or value the contributions individually.

I'm glad you spoke up about it and I think you've been very graceful in your handling of it. Best of all, a lot of people had the opportunity to learn something from having this out in the open. Thank you.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:56 AM   #525 (permalink)
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I am an ass, I called someone out for a reason that wasn't true.

I am really upset over this.
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