ac14hutson

ok put copybut in viewer, users want it.

Sione

You know there are legitimate uses for copybot...

Inhandra

Isn't Phoenix the viewer of choice to put copybot in already? That clearly must indicate a desire by the community. The people want it bad enough to do it themselves!

__________________

Beezle Warburton

Snerk.

If that's true, then it's only because LL pulled the links to the source for "official" 1.x viewers Phoenix would be the next readily available source code for a 1.x ish viewer.

Haven't the script kiddies figured out how to make v2 copybots yet, though?

__________________

Sione

You could be on to something there. A lot of people do refuse to get off of it.

I ported the Imprudence import/export to Firestorm a while back so I didn't have to use v1 for OpenSim/SL transfers, maybe I should submit the patch and everyone will upgrade so they can make their own v3 copybot and be l337.

Sione

Nah, it's the viewer of choice because it already has the feature in it, obeying permissions is the only difference between import/export and copybot. Any script kiddie can make a copybot out of it in 5 mins.

That's the reason why you don't really hear about v2/v3 copybots. None of the TPV's have import/export in them yet.

Adeon Writer

I don't think it's fair to say that Phoenix or Imprudence have Copybot. Once you mod the code, it's not Phoenix viewer anymore and they can't be responsible for code modifications.

Marie Reynaud

How did you conduct this "survey"? Did you randomly contact SL users and ask them? or did you just put some questions on the Phoenix web site? Did you release the data? I'm interested in the methodology.

I'm not trying to be snarky, I just never knew you had conducted a scientific survey (or even any kind of survey) even though I used to use Phoenix before switching to Firestorm and then to Exodus. I just don't recall being asked or even made aware of any survey being conducted.

I'm all for SL users getting what they want, (And at this point I want to say thank you for all your hard work trying to make a better viewer that the stock LL viewer - I loved Phoenix in its day, and I love what you've tried to do with Firestorm) and I applaud you for your efforts in that area, you certainly are better in that regard than LL themselves, but I'm not sure you heard from the majority of SL users.

I get the feeling that you heard from a small minority of users, less representative of SL than even the number of people here, in this forum, being vocal about this issue.

but I don't have a scientific survey to back me up.

Sione

I agree. Nobody is saying that though :O

Kadah Coba

Even being offline doesn't help with those sorts of people since they will IM even when I'm offline and if my status is hidden, they will know the truth on the first message. DirectoryVisiablity only affects the status shown on your profile, it doesn't make you appear actually offline. Most idiots don't even look at profiles before IMing to ask for help, so nothing really makes a different in that case.


I'm assuming this is in reference to what I had said about a special new type of group. I meant no public membership list, ie members can't see who else is in it, just the owner and officers or whatever. Loading the member list on big group causes a lot of issues on a region, like killing group and profile look ups region wide for short while.


Indeed, but under the original analogy, using LSL to tell if they are in would either standing in front of the room and listening if they are in or hotel room door having a window and just looking in as you pass by.
Its hidden status is the equivalent of a receptionist sitting at her desk with a sign saying "out to lunch".
Its a pretty broken system.


There are still a lot of people on Emerald and that shit has been blocked by LL for about 2 years. Our half assed blocking mechanism doesn't work well at all, this was covered in the other thread already. My update notification system is only in 1591 and up and this WILL be used for any post 1600 updates, which there will be at least one in the near term.

Yeah, you can go ahead and tell them that. Can I give them your personal phone number too?

I've seen a couple, but I think the reason is more that it was the only actively developed v1.5 with extra features at the time. The other choices have been Incognito Viewer and its many forks.
The other reason why the copybotter use existing clients is that it makes it a lot easier to "blend in" and avoid detection by LL. That was the reason why Greenlife originally started.


I heard there are several and that all of the newly started ones have been forking from v2/3. I don't know if there are any forked from FS, but I wouldn't be surprised.

What might surprise some of you is that there have been viewers on the TPVD that had copybot functionality at least one point while on the TPVD. Self certification my ass, lol.


You put GPL code in an LGPL viewer and released it?

Also, you're starting to sound more like an Emerald developer.


When I last checked, which was over a year ago, there were about a dozen copybot viewers being development and several of them were forks from Viewer 2. Since then I've heard that V1 clients have died and that there are more being done with v2/3 ones. The sources on that last part aren't reliable, so it may just be a load of bollocks.

After a couple minutes with google, I was able to find a number of download links to a handful of new ones I've never heard of. These crazy bastards have been busy.

Sione

I haven't released anything.

Well, except for the Media Filter obviously.

Kadah Coba

Oh good, Imp would like throw a fit since they are GPL crazy.

bronxelf

And I go back to my original premise:

Wouldn't it behoove someone to find out WHY people want the feature?

If a group of people surveyed is asked if there should be door locks on cars, and they say no, don't you think someone should find out why, and if there's a higher instance of car vandals in the survey?

Sure, they could lie. The problem is in THIS instance theyre *too stupid to lie* convincingly. Ayesha's problem is something that takes *more* knowledge of SL to discuss, not less.

When the survey was done for firestorm, the text field answers of WHY were *very telling* as to *who those users are and why they want the feature*. Here's a spoiler: quite a lot of these people shouldn't be trusted with a houseplant.

Saying "well they want it, so fine" does NOT absolve the creators from the ethical questions that arise from it.

__________________
Looking for a summary to the JLU IP thread? BEHOLD, SUMMARY.

Argent Stonecutter

I don't get why. GPL and LGPL are compatible, the modified viewer would be GPL but the original would still be LGPL.

__________________
Argent Stonecutter -- Skyhook Station -- Coonspiracy Store

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."


The previous is a cybernetic datum published - in direct contravention of DoD Regulation #229RR3X3 - as being conducive to the physical, psychological and/or social well-being of the population.

Naiki

This line owes me one keyboard and monitor due to a 'coffee sprayed due to laughter' incident.

__________________

Andromeda Rage

I'm sorry, but this is just spineless horseshit. Take *some* kind of moral stand and sense of responsibility, will you?

Is there something wrong with listening to your users *within reason*? What happens if you say "Sorry, I know some of you want this feature, but out of respect for other residents of Second Life, we will not include it." Here's what happens: a few people whine and cry and stamp their feet and threaten to ragequit SL. A small percentage actually do, and a percentage of them will be right back on the grid in a week (because SL addiction is a bitch) to continue playing dress-up Barbie or Ken and boffing their cybersex buddies, and they will forget all about this grievous transgression against their self-entitled "rights" in a month or two. And the whining stalker-feature wanting drama-fucktards who ragequit and didn't come back? Gone.

Oh really. No loss there.

Kadah Coba

As long as the modified viewer is under GPL, maybe, but I know LL thinks otherwise on this point.

Casey Pelous

"Scientific survey."

It used to be my job to buy, design, implement and interpret user research. If Phoenix has the budget it would take to do it right, they're makin' BIG bucks and the volunteer developers are getting the hosing of their lives.

Total balderdash.

__________________
"I am not more than a lossy Human being, and think that we all are equals..." - Wasted Engineer

"Casey, I've already established that you have no idea what you are talking about." - Perphides

Andromeda Rage

Yes, a survey that a fraction of their userbase answered (Kadah said "The input recived on that poll represented less than a 1% of the total people using it at the time" near the bottom of this post: Online status JIRA- The Lab... agreed?), which I'm guessing mostly was a vocal bunch of drooling rabid fanboys flooding to the survey, wanting to keep their toys, and tempered somewhat by some more sensible users who were also aware of this survey and voted their concerns appropriately.

The vast remainder of the userbase either truly didn't give enough of a fig to vote, or weren't even aware of the poll in the first place (heck, a good chunk of SLers are blissfully ignorant when it comes to even Linden Lab announcing things. Every other resident was like "huh? what's mesh?" when mesh finally hit the grid.)

Trasee Darkwatch

Arguing with a developer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realize the pig likes it.

__________________
______________________________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination

Joshua Nightshade

And cue Tonya whining about how SLU is a hivemind bullypit in three, two, one....

__________________

Tonya Souther

We posted a link to this blog post in the Phoenix and Firestorm MOTD.

The dataset is available from this blog post.

Tonya Souther

The "silent majority" is a fiction used to back up an argument when you can't prove it.

Joshua Nightshade

Odd that you keep invoking it, then.

Ayesha Lytton

I think that the silent majority probably doesn't give a rat's ass about this issue either way. It's just a few strongly for or against arguing about it.

__________________
Solace Beach Estates: Beautiful Residential & Commercial Land for All Budgets!
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Solace%20Beach/193/48/23