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Old 09-01-2011, 01:09 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Eboni Khan View Post
There are ways to manage it, if you want to take on the responsibility of deeding group to land, understand what you are doing.
Yes, I tell people that too. REMOVE LIABILITIES ETC FROM "Everyone". But people are never told about this, and unless you have actually run into it you're unlikely to notice it by chance. I don't consider it at all unreasonable for someone to never have noticed it if they've never sold group land. Because it's completely counter-intuitive.

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When you sell the land, take the land back so you get all the money.
That's the wrong solution. If you used the group bonus, you can't take it back unless you raise your tier. The right solution is to adjust the group roles to the way they should have been in the first place. That's been the solution since the big group shakeup and that was when, 2007?
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:12 PM   #77 (permalink)
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So, looks like to me they forgot to didn't know they had to change the roles setup. Because why would anyone imagine that people outside the Owner role would get paid when the group land was sold? That's just nuts!

My vote: working as intended.
FTFY

My vote: nasty design flaw.
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:33 PM   #78 (permalink)
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FTFY

My vote: nasty design flaw.
Whatever, different strokes for different folks.

When its changed, people will pour out and claim how dare they make it harder to distribute group fees to the group. (even though I think its kinda a dick move, it's the most common use of the role) No pleasing everyone. Just learn how to use the group roles... end.
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:36 PM   #79 (permalink)
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There are ways to manage it, if you want to take on the responsibility of deeding group to land, understand what you are doing. When you sell the land, take the land back so you get all the money. That is not some great new revelation, it is old as the hills.
It's a problem on mainland when you were benefitting from the group tier bonus.

But there's no excuse these days, they only had to adjust the roles. Unless they had a problem with multiple owners of the group, as you can't get rid of other owners.
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Old 09-01-2011, 01:36 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I think having the default benefit normal honest people rather than people who prefer to trick people into subsidizing their search fees is entirely reasonable.

Bottom line: this should have been fixed in the big group shake-up. There's no excuse for the current behavior.
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:13 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Regarding the original issue, as sad as it is to see those beautiful regions go, I totally understand where it's coming from.

If any of you knew how many projects Caledon has had, that made it to about 50% or 80% and then died over some tech issue or change, or other timesucking reason that suddenly appeared, most of you would be stunned.


First example, the Caledon trains. I had coded up both the first and the second incarnations of those, only both were broken by changes. The first, devastatingly so, because servers used to allow a minute for a scripted object to cross a land parcel (circa 2006) before it would delete it. Long enough to get a train across a small patch. Barney Boomslang helped code up train code a bit later and the trains worked wonderfully for years... until a few months ago. Now I've got a few lines down. It's not Barney's fault, the code is just fine. The region crossing behaviour changed somehow.

The take~away here is that if you create something complex, be prepared to re~do it or fix it six, seven, eight times.

Downside: "What's wrong with your trains, I want trains naaaaaaoooo!" Upside: "Oh, trains." I'm blessed to have some local residents working on that, because, quite frankly, I'm overwhelmed with land issues.


Second thing. Not many of you know that Caledon teamed up with Grendels to allow the entire estate to become a sort of 'land' where you could find things, mine, harvest and so forth. The idea being, that once this worked out, we could share it with other estates and then each would have certain resources like gold or rare spices or whatnot. At one point I had several thousand prims devoted to this. It was all completely free.

Well, what happened to that... a few things.

"Cool stuff" *absolutely* relies on a healthy SL economy, and when a couple dozen openspace regions are jacked from 48 or 75 a month to 95, well, there went about 5000 dollars a year of personal income and a LOT of pissed off residents. Why would I bring that up *even now*, years later? Because in real time, it's been only a couple of years, and I'm still feeling the brutal effects of it. I can't just shed 2 dozen regions and have an intact estate. I built the place naively thinking there wouldn't be a massive clawback of my business model. It wasn't just that. It was the massive PR disaster of June 2010, the devaluation of the $L that summer, the collapse of land sales, and the inane persistence of keeping tier so damn high that growth is hard~stalled platformwide... while feeding a frenzy of offworld competitors. Add Linden Homes and an irresponsibly managed mainland just flooded with vacancies, and here we are.

Net result: 95% of my time is spent on busting my ass holding the land business model together, and 5% can go to stuff like supporting coolness like Grendel's stuff. I won't grow my income dependency on SL one penny until I see not an apology, not an opportunity, but an honest to god "unclawing back" in real dollars of the business model I'd first built in good faith. If that sounds like hardball tactics, they played hardball with me first: tier jacked up on regions I'd committed to.

Second thing, the support. Once you do anything cool, expect to be compared to Blizzard or Bethesda. Complaints pour in! Demands! And even if it was done pitch perfect, cries of more, More, MOAR!!! Few people realise that it can take a team of diversely talented people literally take 20 man years of work to create just one "level" of a popular, well polished game considered acceptable in 2011. The storytelling, the art, the coding, the cadence of it all and most of all: the validation, testing and making sure it's right, and 'fair' to all. Community service shut down more than one project, cold.

Finally, it's the "Oh, how dare you charge for anything!" syndrome. Many of you know about the dozens of varieties of Caledon mushrooms that can still be picked all over the estate for free. Does anyone realise that that people pick about 100,000 a year of those? I get a lot of questions about them. Yes, they *are* part of a much larger 'something' but I've been smart enough not to release *that* until I happen to have an extra 80 hours a month of free time to support it. Will it ever get released? Do the financial math on that one.
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:30 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Second thing. Not many of you know that Caledon teamed up with Grendels to allow the entire estate to become a sort of 'land' where you could find things, mine, harvest and so forth. The idea being, that once this worked out, we could share it with other estates and then each would have certain resources like gold or rare spices or whatnot. At one point I had several thousand prims devoted to this. It was all completely free.

This is why you asked about spare prims/tier, isn't it?
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:58 PM   #83 (permalink)
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This is why you asked about spare prims/tier, isn't it?
I'm not sure I understand the question.

The several thousand prims I was supporting for that (and a LOT more, including Caledon Oxbridge that has run me about 10,000 USD to date) ~ these I had no issue supporting myself so long as business was good and I wasn't fighting a losing battle, where I'd develop land business only to have my margin clawed back.

I've never asked anyone for spare prims or free tier.
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:09 PM   #84 (permalink)
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*gasp* Not the news I wanna wake up to! O.O

They said in chat that they aren't doing mesh, and NO IT WON'T FUCKING KILL THEM. They've got a niche that can't be easily filled. This doom and gloom stuff has GOT TO STOP.
Side note:

That strikes me as more than a little odd... as you'd think that non-human avatars, things such as trees, dragons, and the like would be one of the areas where it would excel.

Not only the obvious (rigged mesh) but the fact that it would let someone do everything they did in sculpts, but without the poly wastage, lod headache, and general fucking around you have to twiddle with.
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:10 PM   #85 (permalink)
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I'm not sure I understand the question.

The several thousand prims I was supporting for that (and a LOT more, including Caledon Oxbridge that has run me about 10,000 USD to date) ~ these I had no issue supporting myself so long as business was good and I wasn't fighting a losing battle, where I'd develop land business only to have my margin clawed back.

I've never asked anyone for spare prims or free tier.
nooooo. I was thinking of this thread.. How much empty land do you have that is likely to go unused for 90 days?

I forgot it was land, I thought it was prims/tier. From my memory of the thread, I thought you had a super secret plan thingy which seemed to fit in with what you alluded to above. (although reading the posts at the end that I didn't read at the time, apparently you were just being nosey).
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:17 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Grendel's doesn't use the marketplace.

Coupled with my previous post.... yeah.....

Hmmm......

I think I see a trend here... and 2 possible solutions if their problem is a dip in sales....
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:17 PM   #87 (permalink)
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nooooo. I was thinking of this thread.. How much empty land do you have that is likely to go unused for 90 days?

I forgot it was land, I thought it was prims/tier. From my memory of the thread, I thought you had a super secret plan thingy which seemed to fit in with what you alluded to above. (although reading the posts at the end that I didn't read at the time, apparently you were just being nosey).
Oh, that! I was sort of curious about it, really. I've found that people actually enjoy "just having land instantly available" regardless if they are likely to use it, or not. It actually stemmed from an odd feeling I'd had about renting land to one person for about four years, who logged in once every 3 months or so to pay tier and that was it. I was feeling bad about it ~ wasn't he enjoying it? Turns out, for him, he was perfectly happy. Just knowing it was there.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:00 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Coupled with my previous post.... yeah.....

Hmmm......

I think I see a trend here... and 2 possible solutions if their problem is a dip in sales....
I suspect the reason for not doing mesh is the issue of modding. You can't take apart a mesh and play with the pieces like you can with an object made from prims or even sculpts. Still, I agree, there's things Grendel makes where mesh would be the ideal format.

Regardless, I can't see why Grendel's wouldn't be eager to use the marketplace. It's a guaranteed sales boost.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:09 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I suspect the reason for not doing mesh is the issue of modding. You can't take apart a mesh and play with the pieces like you can with an object made from prims or even sculpts. Still, I agree, there's things Grendel makes where mesh would be the ideal format.

Regardless, I can't see why Grendel's wouldn't be eager to use the marketplace. It's a guaranteed sales boost.
Yeah, I said apart from the current rigged mesh bru-haha.
There's nothing to stop anyone making mesh pieces and still have better results in both building, look and poly count than a sculpt. While still retaining all the stretch, slide stuff that a prim or a sculpt has.

(I've been thinking that old 'man who has only a hammer sees the world as a nail saying ever since the great mesh debates started).
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:34 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Side note:

That strikes me as more than a little odd... as you'd think that non-human avatars, things such as trees, dragons, and the like would be one of the areas where it would excel.

Not only the obvious (rigged mesh) but the fact that it would let someone do everything they did in sculpts, but without the poly wastage, lod headache, and general fucking around you have to twiddle with.
Heh, I wrote that when I was half-asleep.

I found out the day before that they're holding out on mesh until EVERYBODY can see it. That's gonna take awhile.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:07 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Why can't the Lindens give people named contact people, or a small team of named contact people? And, as many companies do, have them check up on the customers? An IM once a month saying, "Hi - how's it going? Any problems? Anything we can help with?" would make people feel special and valued - not hung out to dry.
I was one of those people. We were the Community Team.

Were.
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