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Old 08-31-2011, 12:29 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Saffia Widdershins View Post
It can be difficult to go into details when the details are small things in themselves, adding up to a cummulative effect.

Let's take one example - Grendel's were in the Destination Guide, dropped out, were put back in - but with a photo they felt didn't reflect what they are about. They asked for it to be changed back in April (and I think they've asked a couple of times subsequently, but am not sure). Nothing has happened.

Let's take another - which I do give in the article. They took one problem to Rodvik Linden, and it was fixed for three days - but then it broke again, and no-one seemed willing to fix it this time. Should they go to Rodvik again? As Toady says, contacting the CEO every time your sim freezes is not really an option.

It's been a lot of little things rather than a huge dealbreaker. But detailing one or two makes it sound trivial (which it isn't) and listing all of them would take rather a long time.

Why can't the Lindens give people named contact people, or a small team of named contact people? And, as many companies do, have them check up on the customers? An IM once a month saying, "Hi - how's it going? Any problems? Anything we can help with?" would make people feel special and valued - not hung out to dry. And, in a lot of cases, those friendly queries would get the response, "Thanks, everything's fine."

Good estate owners do it. Melody Regent, of Regent Estates, for example, pops into group chat pretty regularly to let people know that if they have any problems, she and her staff are aound t help. It's simple, it's friendly ... and it works.

Think what a difference it could have made to Grendel's if there had been a proactive Linden (or small group of Lindens).
Gosh, I have to weep for people put in the Destination Guide, Saffia, getting all that traffic supplied for free by the Lindens. And geez, they couldn't get their picture changed pronto.

It sounds like whatever "solid profits" were made were *not enough* in fact to overcome the routine annoyances of SL and they couldn't cope.
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Old 08-31-2011, 12:41 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I'd just like to add that I've had contact with Flea and Toady, and been a fan of Grendel's for years. They do make money, but they only need one sim to do that. The other three (and the ground level of Tor) were used for a roleplay environment, and a host of games. The oldest one I know of was the Drakelet hunt, which was redone at least once, then two versions of the Avarian Expedition, which reminds me of a grittier version of Harvest Moon. Those haven't run in a long time, and without them there's not much point in having four full sims. I recall one of them saying that tons of people only using the sims (presumably without going to the shop) was annoying, so I'm not surprised they don't want to spend time and energy maintaining the games. Grendel's is extremely popular, and that kind of traffic is going to bring problems. If LL won't follow through on support tickets, then yeah I would shut down some sims too. Besides, they cost an arm and a leg now, and without dwell traffic has little meaning. Having a sprawling estate is only useful if you're renting land, which Grendel's never did. I imagine the only reason they're keeping both Avaria and Avaria Tor is so the various creators can have enough room to work on their large projects without using prims or script time from the store (which is massive and constantly growing, for those who have never been there.)

Also, I've never known Flea or Toady to engage in pointless LL bashing. Troll bashing though, I have seen that. I watched one hilarious interchange between Flea and a troll that swore he could sculpt better than Flea. Flea invited him to meet and have a sculpt-off. Flea created a humorous dog figure (Tankdawg, I have a copy of it!) in about five minutes, and the troll did nothing but complain and make excuses. Good times.
They evidently weren't making enough profits to justify hiring a manager to take care of their customers' play sims, which would involve interfacing with LL's customer service with all the routine annoyances.
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Old 08-31-2011, 12:43 PM   #53 (permalink)
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There has been an update on his stream:
After *seven years*, and this long-time Feted Inner Core member and former Linden didn't realize that group land sales distribute to members?!

I hope he has honest members.

The Lindens gave Cubey Terra a very long run with free advertising.

They used to allow him to send unmanned blimps into the welcome areas to pick up newbies for rides, which was a flying ad for his store.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:05 PM   #54 (permalink)
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@Saffia - I work daily on the Destination Guide for Linden Lab and would be happy to help Grendel's with any aspect of their listing, including a new image. I've looked through my email archive and have no record of any contact to editor@lindenlab.com re: this listing -- so please contact me directly by email or inworld so we can help! It may be that your request was not routed to me, so I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
Thanks Brett! I've passed that message on to Toady!

I wonder if she'd tried to make connection through the web interface - I've done that myself, and wondered if my message was vanishing iinto a void as I never heard anything again. So I was left not sure whether to persist or shrug.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:58 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I'm sure this decision made perfect sense in the Tuesday morning meeting over doughnuts and sake.

I wholly agree with you Argent. What I mean is that Linden Lab doesn't. It's not a defect to them; this is how they think; this is what we were working with when trying to improve Second Life and build a world that would attract mainstream users. My defect was wasting so much time and effort not realizing that this is how they think. Thank Heaven I finally understood.
This is probably the key issue Rodvik needs to tackle if he wants to make real progress at Linden Lab. There's a culture of "the software (mostly) works, we don't see the problem" when it comes to issues that aren't wholly software related, like ease of use, design/presentation, social networking (tho they finally seem to be working on improvements there for the first time), etcetera.

It's these things LL needs to completely change their attitude on if they want to make SL easier to get into, better looking, more engaging, a better environment for creating better content and, ultimately, more marketable.

Not saying every Linden is like that, just that it seems like the overriding attitude from key decision makers.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva View Post
After *seven years*, and this long-time Feted Inner Core member and former Linden didn't realize that group land sales distribute to members?!
Unless you are in the land business, why would you expect such an insanely counter-intuitive thing to happen?
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:29 PM   #57 (permalink)
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So ok I dont get out much anymore...what is the "fetid inner core" exactly?
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:21 PM   #58 (permalink)
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So ok I dont get out much anymore...what is the "fetid inner core" exactly?
Loony-speak for "people that LL likes better than a raving old bat"
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:23 PM   #59 (permalink)
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So ok I dont get out much anymore...what is the "fetid inner core" exactly?
It's a misspelling of "feted inner core," as in the inner group of people who are honored or celebrated by the Lab. A likely translation would be "the Lab's super-bestest buddies." They aren't people who are smelly (necessarily).
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:24 PM   #60 (permalink)
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There is no "FIC". There are a very few people that know how to twist LL into doing their bidding by using "Silicone Valley Latte Speak". But no "FIC".
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:27 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ann Otoole View Post
There is no "FIC". There are a very few people that know how to twist LL into doing their bidding by using "Silicone Valley Latte Speak". But no "FIC".
There's people who know Lindens IRL, and then there's the rest of us.

Oh, and I guess monied interests like the Amarettos and Bloodlines that make enough $$$/draw enough users that LL can't ignore them; but I don't know if they have any special influence beyond getting their products premium placement in Linden Lab emails/blogs/advertising(BE A VAMPIRE,etc)...
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:29 PM   #62 (permalink)
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The point is the hallucinations prok has about LL giving favors are bullshit.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:31 PM   #63 (permalink)
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The point is the hallucinations prok has about LL giving favors are bullshit.
in related news, water still wet, fire still hot.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:57 PM   #64 (permalink)
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So Cubey sold group land and the money distributed to the group? Isn't that working as intended?
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:22 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Never been, but still I see more and more new people every day and they have at least 150 day old accounts. SL is changing to cater towards to newer user mass.
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Old 09-01-2011, 05:17 AM   #66 (permalink)
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So Cubey sold group land and the money distributed to the group? Isn't that working as intended?
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-378
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Old 09-01-2011, 05:40 AM   #67 (permalink)
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And what support did they need exactly?
I'm curious about this too, the real reasons (if it's not about money but I'm inclined to think it's about money, it's always about money).

Money and time they need for update to mesh.
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:30 AM   #68 (permalink)
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That is what a group is for. You don't have to deed land to group, you can just set it to group.

This is really some noob shit. It hasn't changed in years, everyone, especially oldbies should understand how it works. The whole point of having groups like this was so we could share tier and land. I used to do it with my friends all the time. I like that function of groups. I realize now most people don't have mainland, but if you own main land the group capabilities are important to understand.

I still voting working as intended, and people need to stop noobing shit up. I can't believe people are blaming LL for user error or acting like it is some great revelation of a "flaw" in SL when this is exactly how groups are supposed to work. This is a pretty retro complaint.
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Old 09-01-2011, 08:56 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Beezle Warburton View Post
Loony-speak for "people that LL likes better than a raving old bat"
Wouldn't that mean everyone, with the exception of the raving old bat, was FIC?



I've always wanted to be FIC, and here I have been all along!!

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Old 09-01-2011, 09:04 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I've had zero issues with the destination guide. Gabrielle has been very helpful to me in the past, particularly when I want a hunt put in the featured events section.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:10 AM   #71 (permalink)
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That is what a group is for. You don't have to deed land to group, you can just set it to group.
Apart from the 10% tier bonus you get if you deed land to the group... if you're running a business with multiple managers, like Abbot's Airfield, you pretty much need to deed it to group to delegate roles properly. Then you remove liabilities from everyone but owners. This is standard for any kind of communal land - malls, clubs, sandboxes, and so on - just look around the mainland and see how many malls are simply "set to group". Especially since the great group makeover that gave you all kinds of fine-tuned access control for roles for group-owned land.

Linden Lab clearly intended that communal land be deeded to group, and that the groups would have non-owner members. Given that, having people who AREN'T owners treated as owners for group payments and liabilities is supremely counter-intuitive.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:56 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:07 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Eboni Khan View Post
I still voting working as intended, and people need to stop noobing shit up. I can't believe people are blaming LL for user error or acting like it is some great revelation of a "flaw" in SL when this is exactly how groups are supposed to work. This is a pretty retro complaint.
There are the roles, which when properly set up, you can limit the accounting (Pay group liabilities and receive group dividends) to only the owner role.

My group is set up that way for a long time, mainly because I have the parcel listed in search, and I saw it as unfair to make other people pay for the listing besides myself (as some are no payment info on file, and haven't got an income). On the other hand, a lot of groups actually want to spread out the fees that the group incurs (likely the reason for having it default)

So, looks like to me they forgot to change the roles setup.

My vote: working as intended.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:11 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Apart from the 10% tier bonus you get if you deed land to the group... if you're running a business with multiple managers, like Abbot's Airfield, you pretty much need to deed it to group to delegate roles properly. Then you remove liabilities from everyone but owners. This is standard for any kind of communal land - malls, clubs, sandboxes, and so on - just look around the mainland and see how many malls are simply "set to group". Especially since the great group makeover that gave you all kinds of fine-tuned access control for roles for group-owned land.

Linden Lab clearly intended that communal land be deeded to group, and that the groups would have non-owner members. Given that, having people who AREN'T owners treated as owners for group payments and liabilities is supremely counter-intuitive.
There are ways to manage it, if you want to take on the responsibility of deeding group to land, understand what you are doing. When you sell the land, take the land back so you get all the money. That is not some great new revelation, it is old as the hills.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:34 AM   #75 (permalink)
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There are ways to manage it, if you want to take on the responsibility of deeding group to land, understand what you are doing. When you sell the land, take the land back so you get all the money. That is not some great new revelation, it is old as the hills.
Ever done that particular move without bumping tier up because you are maxed? Ever?
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