Darnk Yun

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Ahaha, such a simpleton. It'z so much fun playing jokez on you. I waz only here to see how she waz doing, but I had fun while I waz at it. So long, Sere, au revoir, mon ami! Pleaze dream of moi every night! Oui! ~ Harle

http://leechmouth.deviantart.com/

Sid Nagy

49

Hitomi Tiponi

Is there a way to filter out of this thread all those who have posted less than 100 posts in this forum so we can get rid of the axe-grinders?

Naiki

Screw you SLU! You ignored my demands and even taunted me! Now I have 7 pages to read over coffee!!!! I quit this stupid forum!!!!... Again...

Anguissette

Hey! I'm offended!

(Goes back to sharpening up the axes.)

Velvet Bikcin

Allright, I've just read the damn thread from start to finish.

This whole thing is like the Cliff's notes version of Redzone.

My gods you even have the villains of the piece standing around talking about their plan AND keeping minutes!

Worst bond film ever.

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"Don't touch the things, this is a local shop for local people, there's nothing for you here."

Anguissette

If this is a Bond movie, which of us is Pussy Galore?

Naiki

By SLU standards, whoever posts the most LOLcats...

Ashiri

Ok, 95 LOLcats later I'll be safe?

GreenLantern Excelsior

I had a hard time convincing my company to order a free software product that seemed superior to other, very expensive applications. They were worried about getting support. When I showed them the active discussion forum that had plenty of support, they finally agreed to use the software. So "inexpensive" does not always mean "cheap."

Alt detection is useful to protect people whose sims are under constant attack from the same two or three people. The sim owners eject and ban the griefers, who instantly create new avatars and come roaring back. Same computer, same IP address, same evil intention, different avatar name. It would be nice if a sim owner could ban a griefer no matter what name he used while attacking. That was the idea behind alt detection. The concept didn't get very far, though, before Linden Lab decided to prohibit it. As Hewee said, there were too many false positives, so the system could identify the wrong person as a bad guy. The system never became reliable enough to be able to consistently ban a griefer from a sim no matter what name he used. It was still under evaluation when LL added alts to the disclosure rule. After that, it was abandoned.

One of the most interesting aspects of the alt detection discussion was watching how some people reacted so violently to the concept. To them, the concept was wrong for the simple reason that it was wrong, and if you asked for an explanation of why it was wrong, then there was something wrong with you, because obviously you didn't think it was wrong. It didn't matter if you pointed out to them that they were broadcasting their IP address everywhere they went on the Internet. They were right and you were wrong, wrong, wrong. A lady in one of my groups who was pretty much a basic Second Life user was absolutely terrified of alt detection. She had no concept of how it worked, and she didn't oppose it on the grounds that it was an invasion of privacy. She was unable to articulate why she thought it was wrong, but she absolutely did not want to be anywhere near anything that might identify any of her alts. It always intrigued me to wonder what she had going on that she was so afraid to have brought out into the open.

I could have said many things, but I didn't. Get over it and move along. If you don't like the way I post then I suggest you add me to your Ignore list.

Your "proof" and "evidence" is very suspect in this discussion. You guys have a long list of names and partial IP addresses, from a location that you won't (or can't) disclose, given to you by some guy named "Anon," that you call "proof." You have a partial page from the Brainiac wiki showing a conceptual discussion of how Phantom Zone might work some day, and omitting the rest of the discussion where the IP addresses were planned not to be visible, and you call that "proof." You have a whole flurry of irrelevant side discussions to divert the topic away from what you call "proof." What you are calling "proof" does not stand up to close examination.

Hewee created Phantom Zone, and came here on his own to explain how it worked and why JLU is not using alt detection. Obviously he went to a lot of effort that could have been spent far more enjoyably elsewhere. Plus, he's a nice guy who doesn't deserve to be spit on by you or anyone else.

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ZenMondo

It occurs to me that in a thread made up of accusations and very little evidence It may be enlightening to illustrate what it looks like when your IP has been detected by a second life device. It looks like this:



This is a packet of a redzone device I captured with wireshark. In it you can see the entire GET argument including all the information from the scripted devices using zfires simple substitution cipher as well as the working environment from which this packet was captured (the second life viewer)

How I obtained this was simply teleporting to a region (Triggerfish) that had a redzone device and allowed myself to be captured by that. But ladies and gents any connection he had with me, I had with him as well. The internet is as they say, a two-way street.

So here is a little Experiment. Get the Packet Sniffer of your choice, teleport to Second Life Maps | Taber Which is right next to an Enforcing Phantom Zone Device and share your work. That way you don't have to take mine or Aether's word for it (in fact Aether did not ask you to take him at his word but use reason). You can see for yourself. If anyone needs help working Wireshark, I am just an IM away.

Its my suspicion our detractors will be working with photoshop more than wireshark which is why I urge those reading to try it for yourself.

Sling Trebuchet

Pffffft!

I get paged to come to SLU for a thread. WHo by? Well it could have been you.

It's only just got past 666 posts ......... AMATEURS!

Listen up! 'p' is for P.a.g.e.s
I get paged for PAGES - not posts. Tut!

Besides - isn't this JLU stuff very old news?
Men in tights - impotent people fantasising about having powah.


If there is suspicion that appears well-founded, it is open to LL to examine the code of any objects in a sim that are communicating with a third-party server. Eliminate the well-known vendor systems, etc. and you're left with some questions that could be asked.
LL can take action against any in-world elements, even if publishing of data harvested happens entirely off-world.

If someone is divulging the non-public information of others, then the TOS now seems to explicitly cover alt identity.


This is a puny thread.
Do you not all realise that the new improved and repackaged Rapture avec Judgement Day is coming up on October 21st?
This is your target. 666 Pages by Judgement Day.

__________________
Violation of your Data Privacy via the SL viewer and in-world objects within LL's control.
Please READ on this issue - It's not over! https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746
Second Life - "Your World, Some Random Nutter's Database."
!quit

Anguissette

It's not the size of your thread, it's how you use it.

(Sorry I don't have any lolcat pictures to pad this out with.)

Cathiee McMillan

Ok I have No love for the JLU, I really believe they abuse their Power as a SL Police Force.
But I have a Question for TUX, you and your friends came to the scifi con held by IFT, And basically started up some trouble In the sims that the con was being held because the JLU was their. You and your friends ended up griefing and causing issues with other groups who have no Association with the JLU.
Please see your own BLOG
Tux is coming . . . | SL4.ME

I don't think you are any better than the JLU. Yes I read your post of the conversation with the IFT "security" at the Sim and i think both sides were at fault.
You Brought a Personal war to a place that others didn't want to be involved with it nor knew about it or even cared for the personal Battle.

I don't see you any better than the JLU.

Anguissette

If people are going to start a gang war between two rival factions in someone else's sim, at least choreograph it and set it to catchy music. It's more traditional.

Cathiee McMillan

GLE:
Explain how your IP alt detection avoids matching people up in Cities with the same IP, Colleges with the same IP, Or even my own Town In about a 5-10 Mile radius in my town my external IP is shared by everyone who has a cable Modem.
Guess why the Cable company does this?
1.) For my protection from people like you.
2.) cause its cheaper for the Cable companies.
IP alt detection is and never will be Accurate you will hit more False Positives than actual. I wish you people who made these things would actually learn how the Internet IP address's really work with most IP companies and Business's

Just because 1 sim may ban me, cause they don't like me doesn't make me a Griefer that needs to be banned across the board with your Phantom Zone device.

Wow I recall having an argument with you at one IFT con about "weapons" policy over a Prop gun with a Holster script in it. When i said your "Power Ring does more damage than the Prop gun with a Holster script"
Seriously you all need to stop pimping these ways to protect people when you can't

ZenMondo

I have said this. Aether has said this in detail. And this is why Phantom Zone never has and never will collect IP addresses or do alt-detection in any way.

Cathiee McMillan

So Zen HOW is detecting ALTS?
What are you using to detect ALTs besides yours and the JLUs judgment?

Per conversation:
Why is PZ trying to hide from other detectors if it isn't doing anything wrong why is it wanting to be hidden?

bronxelf

That's not what I said.

I'll try again. I didn't say it was cheap. I said it was a good way to establish plausible deniability. I stand by that- it's still true. When you are giving something away rather than selling it, you do not have an implied responsibility. If it's shady, then one can claim "well I didn't rip anyone off- I wasn't selling anything!" It's like stealing someone's intellectual property, but since you aren't reselling it to make a profit, you get to claim innocence. It's a skirt around stuff that could get you into *real* trouble, even if you're still doing the same crummy thing.
Oh I know what it's used for. I'll go back to what I said about RZ: That's not your job. That's the Lab's job. The fact of the matter is that anyone TRULY determined to get around a ban can and will. Period. The process of alt matching is (at best) flawed, and puts FAR more people at risk vis a vis their privacy than it catches the "same two or three people" who *can and will* find a way onto your sim no matter what creepy little device you have set up.*

I get what it's ostensibly designed to do. I say again, that's the Lab's job. Period. The issue is that even though I understand (I promise!) what it's designed to do- I still think it's wrong. You seem to think it's wrong because the Lab made a rule about it. That's my point. I (and many others here who are not do-gooding busybodies) understand that we are not employees of the Lab and that they, and only they are the people who should be handling these issues past the level of the sim owner themselves. That even though we are all intelligent people who completely understand the reason these sorts of systems were invented, we still say it's not okay to do that.

Further, please stop with that tired nonsense about broadcasting your IP everywhere. It's not applicable. No one ever argued the notion of IP recording being a problem in and of itself. They argued it once it was *tied to an account name* and used to tie it to *other account names* in order to establish potential alternate identities. That was the problem. The tired old "oh you leave your IP all over the internet" thing was debunked MANY months ago, and zFire himself tried the same tactic of clouding the issue and pooh poohing it. It didn't work for him and it's not going to work here, either.


Let me put it this way- there's an argument that religious folk like to use against atheists. There was a thread about it on SLU recently- about morals without gods. The fundamental premise was that there are some religious people who believe atheists are fundamentally immoral because they have no fear of an all powerful deity who will punish them for wrongdoing. The atheists counter that they don't need the fear of a powerful deity or punishment- they're capable of ascertaining the right thing to do without an authority figure making a rule about it.

That was what I was getting at- not the timeline of how this came down because you all are still arguing over what PZ does and does not do. My point was that you supported alt detection and it took the Lab(see: powerful deity in this case) to come down and decide against it. You didn't come to that conclusion on your own. You are obeying the rule- but a rule had to be made *first*. You don't support the actual premise- just the rule.

Again, that's a big deal.

ZenMondo

The Kind of alts that we do catch are pretty easy and don't require any technical acumen to figure it out.

The most recent case comes to mind is that a region called Bay City is having serial greifer attacks (replicating prims, sound and particle spam) the user keeps using variations on the same name VampireL0rd1, VampireL0rd2, and so on and so on.

Earlier this past evening there was a series of griefing attacks in Caledon Oxbridge University and its neighboring region Caledon Oxbridge Village. The attack was handled locally by those that had rights to return objects. There were three identical attacks (Same objects, same type of spam) by three different avatars. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce it was most likely the same person.

The other kind of alt account we would be interested in is the ban-evasion alt. But there are others in this thread that can speak better on that than I as they seem to be expert in rolling such avatars.

Ann Otoole

Griefer coalitions? Is that like Ahern? Each welcome area and info hub is a coalition now?

Anguissette

I agree that some alts are easy to spot. I once had a griefer who I banned, and their alt had the exact same illiteracy problems and spelling mistakes in local chat when they came back, so they were easy to spot. But that whole 'being easy to spot' thing negates the need for a security system...I mean, you just add the obvious alt to your sim ban list. No need to out them or share their information with anyone else. The tools Linden gives us are perfect for that situation, in my experience.

Anguissette

I must say, though, that Zen's explanation of alt detection methods above does seem to suggest that the alts are actually found by people looking out for alts and recording the information. This concerns me, because if people are collecting and sharing alt information with anyone else who is inworld, using any sort of system to share the information that others have access to...well, that's a total violation of the TOS. So could I get some clarification on that please?

Ashiri

Someone gone missing from SL now?

Cathiee McMillan

isn't it a TOS violation now to share Info on Alts?
You can not expose someones alt per the new TOS.
Correct me if i am wrong.

Yes the basic Griefer using the same name is easy to catch .
So why do you need PZ for this kinda of alt detection?