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Old 08-24-2011, 06:47 PM   #3901 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bronxelf View Post
I admit, though many people tell me I am a very patient person, I have very. little. patience for outright bullshit.

So may I cut to the chase here?

The issue overall is that none of these people are thinking for themselves. They are MINIONS. They may be intelligent people. They may be talented people. But in the context of this discussion, they. are. MINIONS. They are CANNON FODDER. They are no more than "9's" in a game of fucking Stratego. They will not act on their own. They will *barely* even THINK on their own.

The problem is KalEl.

Everything else is noise.
You got the cannon fodder part right. Why do you think they come out on forums like this and try to defend themselves? Because Kalel would never do that, if they say something that could put them at risk of a banning then that's to bad. He's the general and the troops are there to be spent. Sacrifices happen, we are seeing them. Kalel doesn't dare come out of his little hole and talk, he knows very well he would put himself at to much risk and the deck would not be stacked way into his favor.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:47 PM   #3902 (permalink)
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That's pretty much what it comes down to. I looked through more old meeting logs, and Kalel was almost always the one to first bring up gathering real life information. Then Maverick joins in with sadistic comments about getting people fired, and anyone who tries to claim it is wrong is met with the response that it is not cyberstalking because it is for "justice".
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:48 PM   #3903 (permalink)
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I have the highest regard for Hewee, back from when he was very patient and helpful getting me started scripting back in the old, old official forums.

If he doesn't know the answer to my question or chooses, for whatever reason, not to answer it, then I'm sure he'll say so, and I'll draw, or not, whatever conclusions seem appropriate.
Well, I'm not going to argue with that, but I still have a very hard time believing that an officer of JLU would not have more of an idea of what is going on, and there have been multiple chatlogs directly contradicting the things he's been saying here. Maybe he's really a decent guy deep down, I dunno. But he's covering for some atrocious behavior and I have a hard time believing that he's been as in the dark as he presents himself to be.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:48 PM   #3904 (permalink)
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I think the list you've shown is folks who have received a PZ kit from the JLU. Not deployed.

To my knowledge (and I explicitly checked this with Michi long before this brouhaha) Luskwood has never deployed Phantom Zone, or CDS, or RedZone, or any post-BanLink third party security system.

I'll see if I can drag Michi away from RL work commitments and make a more definitive statement.
I'm guessing this list is anyone who was given a login/account for PhantomZone, which I did get. However, we never actually used it.

Mid last year (May 2010?) I received a "Phantom Zone 0.50 BETA" distribution from JLU. And informed that an account had been created for Luskwood/me to test it out. I rezzed it in one of our other sims (NOT Lusk), and set it in 'non enforcing mode' for a few days

A few days in, it started screaming out "HTTP errors", so I got rid of it, and we haven't bothered with it since. It certainly was never deployed in any official, enforcing, or actual manner. We basically rezzed it in a far off corner to 'see what it did' (which was, apparently to us, nothing. Even in non-enforcing mode, it didn't give me any 'alerts' of any sort so the response was a big 'shrug'.).

I got sent some updated distributions after that (0.5.11 and 0.5.13 I want to say..) but never rezzed them. We certainly never issued any bans through it nor did we ever have it actually implement any.

So, did Luskwood receive a PhantomZone "kit"? Yeah, we did. But we don't run it, and haven't, except for poking at for a few days in 'neutered' mode until it spammed, and then putting it away. (I'm sure any other logs that have come, or will come to the surface would absolutely back that up.)

But, no. While I was given an 'account', that account remained dormant. We do not use PhantomZone.

(Nor have we used CDS or RedZone.)

Last edited by Michi Lumin; 08-24-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:49 PM   #3905 (permalink)
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Oh do tell. This may help us understand just what PZ does a bit more.
There was a location there I wondered why the JLU would have been called out to in the past. There is also a name there I recognise from a couple of groups I'm in.
That's all. I'm sure Immy will also note that person.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:52 PM   #3906 (permalink)
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:52 PM   #3907 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elysium Hynes View Post
Please share with us some of that research.
I don't have anything more revelatory than what has already been revealed here -- mostly I've just spent time (like I do after reading a Wikipedia article), reading primary sources, like Krypton Radio, as an example.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:54 PM   #3908 (permalink)
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A few days in, it started screaming out "HTTP errors"
Huh. I wonder why it would hit the HTTP cap... if that was indeed the error.
Sending more than it needs to perhaps?
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:58 PM   #3909 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Astolat Dufaux View Post
I don't have anything more revelatory than what has already been revealed here -- mostly I've just spent time (like I do after reading a Wikipedia article), reading primary sources, like Krypton Radio, as an example.
Poor you having to go into that place.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:58 PM   #3910 (permalink)
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The Wrong Hands was founded after one of your own members visited a sandbox that I used to love building in and gave me notecards that had information from people's brainiac entries. Caycee Uriah, one of your group's former members gave me these notecards freely after we started talking. There were four notecards given, one about an instance of me and a group of people posing as a news team and asking leading questions to a GLC member in sandbox cordova, the other was the entry on W-hat and one on Woodbury with the final one being the entry on Tizzers Foxchase.

After reading the disturbingly long entries on Tizzers and Woodbury. I found out that that the JLU have been using alts to spy and track our group members for YEARS. There were multiple instances of me ejecting your group's spies from my own groups, most of them belonging to two "female" (I use that term loosely because I think all of you are inhuman monsters) members of the JLU. The two members who defend the gathering of my IP on my talk page are Samantha Lowell and Kalel Venkman, I have talked to neither in any instance that didn't involve one of them lurking on an alt. Several days ago I ejected the alt of Emily Tomson (Jeenkins Leroy) from my fanclub. If your "female" members want to track me so badly that they make burnable alts to join my groups why don't they talk to me directly rather than just lurking in the shadows?

My discussion page also demonstrates that Kalel records the IPs and geolocates people who post on your blog in response to whatever bullshit "fact" he decides to troll about on his "heroic" whims.

I feel no qualms about tossing Caycee under the bus he/she/it was a Benedict Arnold, playing both sides to see which liked he/she/it more in the end. But under the circumstances I would like to thank them, as none of this would have been possible without him/her/it.

I would like to spell out a clear message to whatever sexually dysfunctional JLU member is reading this thread.



STOP STALKING ME!!!!!
I didn't really think about this before. This just goes to show their wiki was unsecured BEFORE the 2010 leak even happened (and helped lead up to it). I also remember Kalel saying his wiki was breached in 2007 by the PN as well.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:01 PM   #3911 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Michi Lumin View Post
I'm guessing this list is anyone who was given a login/account for PhantomZone, which I did get. However, we never actually used it.
Just a thought:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...isoned_chalice
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:01 PM   #3912 (permalink)
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I didn't really think about this before. This just goes to show their wiki was unsecured BEFORE the 2010 even happened. I also remember Kalel saying his wiki was breached in 2007 by the PN as well.
Not just his wiki in 07, but his sim and his group as well if I remember right. Apparently someone from the JLU tried to play double agent and the PN somehow came across one of his e-mail addresses explaining everything to LL so he wouldn't get banned.

I don't remember any more details than that though. I think they tried giving the person's money to Tizz but he refused and something to due with justice island.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:07 PM   #3913 (permalink)
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The behaviours of this group of individuals is abhorrent. I dont see where you get off thinking you guys (JLU) are above not only SL TOS, but the law itself. I'm sure it will be difficult to prosecute you gents, given different laws in different countries/states... but i think that you deserve whatever damages you might get sued for. your wiki is an identity theif's wet dream. That's nearly what youguys are. Posting VERY personal information on different people on a fucking unsecure wiki. I STILL dont see where you get off on being "above the law". You all deserve to be locked up and fined for the damages and potential damages your website contains.

And linden labs is no different. just wait until they become the target of lawsuits due to JLU. You guys will end up destroying the thing you wanted to protect. just like nearly every single super hero ive ever seen.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:12 PM   #3914 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elysium Hynes View Post
Poor you having to go into that place.

Just as an example, there's a recent article there on linkedprim.com (bylined "Krypton Radio Newswire")

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That said, it does appear that the operators of the site have at least given some thought to the notion of privacy, in that detailed real world contact information is not collected.
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The fact is that the servers are in the United States, and they are, in fact, subject to United States privacy laws as Linden Lab’s Second Life is. Still, there is a section in one’s personal profile setup where you are encouraged to enter vital statistics about yourself, such as your real life age, the city, state and country you live in, your current relationship status, and your real life web site. Granted, it does not actually ask for your name, but this information is often enough for the dedicated internet troll to use it for stalking purposes. Krypton Radio advises caution in the use of this feature.

Last edited by Astolat Dufaux; 08-24-2011 at 07:14 PM. Reason: formatting fix
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:13 PM   #3915 (permalink)
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Not just his wiki in 07, but his sim and his group as well if I remember right. Apparently someone from the JLU tried to play double agent and the PN somehow came across one of his e-mail addresses explaining everything to LL so he wouldn't get banned.

I don't remember any more details than that though. I think they tried giving the person's money to Tizz but he refused and something to due with justice island.
It was Carigorp, who had an account named Bima Escape in the PN. The backlash from that discovery was pretty intense.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:15 PM   #3916 (permalink)
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Just as an example, there's a recent article there on linkedprim.com.
Kalel Venkman: Just IM us all your personal information, we'll make sure it's safe.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:16 PM   #3917 (permalink)
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Just as an example, there's a recent article there on linkedprim.com (bylined "Krypton Radio Newswire")
I hope you used a proxy while visiting that Ast?
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:23 PM   #3918 (permalink)
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If linden labs wants to save their ass on this matter, they better own up to the bug and fix it and investigate this incident. But so far, this doesnt seem like the right course of action for them. If theyre pleading ignorance, then im SURE if they let the JLU continue, there WILL be lawsuits.

But all powerful companies have damn expensive lawyers. I dont want to see LL fall, but there is a possibility if they dont look into this matter, that they will lose a HUGE section of their userbase (regaining it after everyone who once knew is gone or some such) and if they have stock holders, this is certainly shitty PR.

My advice to LL is to investigate the matter, ban the main players, black list their scripts, IP's EVERYTHING, disband the group and FIX THE EXPLOIT.

My advice to Kalel is to stop brooding obsessively over people. it's not healthy. he probably has CSI-esq maps in his basement where he has a hitlist as well. I wouldnt be surprised. this ammount of stalking translates into a VERY psychotic obsession.

ANother thing. SL itself is virtual reality. it is not real. While some people choose to be temselves on SL, others decide to RP in different manners. EVERYONE (save for bots) is a HUMAN BEING BEHIND THE KEYBOARD. You have NO right to treat them like animals to be tracked. You have NO right to gather their information like youre going to make a National Geographic documentary on their lives.

Edited to point out that: Griefers act that way because theyre anon. Just because theyre disruptive in SL doesnt mean they are disruptive IRL. I dont see how you cant understand that. There is a difference between SL and RL. SL is PART of RL. and vice versa. But SL IS NOT RL.

WE ALL deserve the same rights. YOU ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:28 PM   #3919 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vergil Hellershanks View Post
If linden labs wants to save their ass on this matter, they better own up to the bug and fix it and investigate this incident. But so far, this doesnt seem like the right course of action for them. If theyre pleading ignorance, then im SURE if they let the JLU continue, there WILL be lawsuits.

But all powerful companies have damn expensive lawyers. I dont want to see LL fall, but there is a possibility if they dont look into this matter, that they will lose a HUGE section of their userbase (regaining it after everyone who once knew is gone or some such) and if they have stock holders, this is certainly shitty PR.

My advice to LL is to investigate the matter, ban the main players, black list their scripts, IP's EVERYTHING, disband the group and FIX THE EXPLOIT.

My advice to Kalel is to stop brooding obsessively over people. it's not healthy. he probably has CSI-esq maps in his basement where he has a hitlist as well. I wouldnt be surprised. this ammount of stalking translates into a VERY psychotic obsession.

ANother thing. SL itself is virtual reality. it is not real. While some people choose to be temselves on SL, others decide to RP in different manners. EVERYONE (save for bots) is a HUMAN BEING BEHIND THE KEYBOARD. You have NO right to treat them like animals to be tracked. You have NO right to gather their information like youre going to make a National Geographic documentary on their lives.

Edited to point out that: Griefers act that way because theyre anon. Just because theyre disruptive in SL doesnt mean they are disruptive IRL. I dont see how you cant understand that. There is a difference between SL and RL. SL is PART of RL. and vice versa. But SL IS NOT RL.

WE ALL deserve the same rights. YOU ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW.

This is one of those times that LL needs to use the "we will ban your account for any reason we want" clause.

The JLU have become a liability, collectively.
Cull the herd.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:30 PM   #3920 (permalink)
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This is one of those times that LL needs to use the "we will ban your account for any reason we want" clause.

The JLU have become a liability, collectively.
Cull the herd.
And then fix the exploit

(honestly i don´t want to have to go tru this twice a year.)

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:30 PM   #3921 (permalink)
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Huh. I wonder why it would hit the HTTP cap... if that was indeed the error.
Sending more than it needs to perhaps?
I don't know... I didn't really muck with it enough to find out. As far as I know it was because it couldn't find the server or something. But really that was enough for me to give it a raised eyebrow and not bother with it. In the area where I tested it, there weren't enough avatars around for it to be detecting anything worthwhile, so I doubt it was capacity or traffic - I think it was just a serverside screwup.

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Well, sure. Perhaps I should have never rezzed it at all, but hindsight is 20/20. However, that's precisely why I "poked at it with a stick" in a more faraway location and in non-enforcing mode. I expected the most it would do would be to IM me with stuff, which it never did.

The channel-0 error messages were enough to make me never consider putting it in the main social area.

Going forward I don't really see an overarching need for Luskwood to have a system like this anyhow. Our administration is currently done by 'live people', and the griefer front has been "less loud" in the past year or so than in the previous few years in Luskwood. Tengu and the admin crew he oversees handle what does come through on a personal (in other words, non-automated, as far as deciding who gets the boot) level.

If you get booted from Luskwood you can rest assured that at some point, (I say at some point, since some of our bans - but not all -are 'sticky' until manually removed) pissed off a living person with a pulse, and not a machine. And feel free to contact myself or Tengu if anyone feels that one was issued in error. (But keep in mind, we *are* people and not machines, so our opinions on what is a nuisance may differ )

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:31 PM   #3922 (permalink)
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Over 3 years ago I suggested LL implement a media proxy after I discovered I could detect IP's this way. The cost would be negligble and is a simple implementation. LL failed to respond. I have repeatedly suggested it through the years, again without response.

They wouldn't have had to do it themselves, simple buy a proxy license similar to how they use voice. Although IP's can also be grabbed from voice too.

Had they acted then, the issues wouldn't be present today (with the ip shit anyways).
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:31 PM   #3923 (permalink)
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BTW does the fact that i visited the krypton Radio site makes me an hacker or just dirty?

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:33 PM   #3924 (permalink)
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BTW does the fact that i visited the krypton Radio site makes me an hacker or just dirty?
DIRTY HACKER!
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:34 PM   #3925 (permalink)
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DIRTY HACKER!
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