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Economic Engineer · 08-24-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter

The term's gotten so diluted, man. In the old days, you had to actually write code that did something interesting to be considered a hacker. Now you don't even have to be a script kiddy... you just have to type a link into your browser window. Damn.

JLU Definitions

Stalking: Following a JLU member in a public sandbox and pasting their UUID.

Hacking: Looking for sub domains on their website in a broswer.

Argent Stonecutter · 08-24-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

if she were to contact me and inform me of any content she may have posted to the B-Wiki that was shared in violation of Joshua's confidence, I would be happy to look into it and remove any such material immediately.

The ethical thing to do would be to only put information in there when you had supporting documentation that it was both legal and relevant to the business of the JLU.

Tracer Graves · 08-24-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

Again I will not betray my group's confidence,

But you'll betray everyone they target. Aren't you the noble soul? What exactly does your JLU oath require of you?

Quote:

but I believe I may able to address this one sufficiently from Joshua's story alone and what has been posted here. He claimed that he had a private correspondence with Zatzai, and that she betrayed his confidence in sharing the information. That's really between him and Zatz, as I have no idea what confidentiality agreement there may have been between them. I trust Zatz, and my assumption based on her supposed behavior and based on what I have seen posted here about what is supposedly in the wiki would probably be that she may have thought Joshua's communication WAS meant for the League and not just her.

You are either an idiot or a liar, probably both.

Quote:

The kind of information he supposedly provided her--and if what is posted here IS accurate there is always the good chance it may not be nearly complete--would seem to be along the vein of helpful cooperation with the League. I could understand how she might think that even if it was not Joshua's implicit intent.

So why wasn't it taken down after it served its purpose? Quit it with your noble intentions bullshit. It's getting old. Only a sick individual would consider this to be an okay thing to do.

Quote:

It's easy to get angry about something and start changing your story or revising your own recollection, I suppose, too. But Joshua says he has satisfactorily resolved the matter with Zatz, so if she were to contact me and inform me of any content she may have posted to the B-Wiki that was shared in violation of Joshua's confidence, I would be happy to look into it and remove any such material immediately. I'll state again that I trust Zatz, and it sounds like Joshua does to some degree as well, so there should be an easy remedy for this one.

How about you take it down already, since Josh has repeatedly requested you do so? Ahh, but you trust zatz, and you've had private conversations into her rational, as you alluded to in previous posts. Honestly, you're just as bad here as Kalel, GLE and everyone else in your self-deluded spandex-wearing vigilante squad.

Mocksoup Graves · 08-24-2011, 05:56 PM

JLU
——
Founded by Kalel Venkman
Group Key: cc7d8ee6-cc07-8f11-193b-8544514143f3
Owners
===================
Kalel Venkman
Kara Timtam
J.L.U. – Officers
===================
Hewee Zetkin
Rodimal Axon
Fenix Harbinger
Maverick Grunfeld
KaraZorL Resident
Samantha Lowell
Melanippe Karas
GreenLantern Excelsior
Kalel Venkman
Kara Timtam
J.L.U. – Recruit
===================
Fierce Galewind
Sumalee capelo
Baht McMahon
Kaemilla Sutter
Elaine Fairport
Jetta Bentham
Razor Indigo
Dezdemona Xenno
Tensai Hilra
J.L.U. Full Members
===================
Gawyn Philbin
Jaedeen Niles
Phillip Beeswing
Dawg Shatzkin
Kara Timtam
Hewee Zetkin
Cdurd770 Halfpint
Walden Mannonen
Eugenia Burton
MartianManhunter Resident
Emiley Tomsen
Rodimal Axon
Vagabond Carter
Sam Brautigan
Bobkoe Nirvana
Glitch Braess
Elaine Fairport
Fenix Harbinger
Piper Craven
Maverick Grunfeld
Jetta Bentham
KaraZorL Resident
Siobhan McCallen
Razor Indigo
Ookamisuke Babenco
Searra Weatherwax
Dash Curry
Kohaku Owatatsumi
Ginrai Yamabushi
Heidi Stiglitz
Samantha Lowell
Melanippe Karas
Tsu Goodliffe
Zania Turner
Jewelsy Walsh
Ta Moxie
Kalel Venkman
ZenMondo Wormser
GreenLantern Excelsior
Selene Hudson
J.L.U. Mentor
===================
Emiley Tomsen
Fenix Harbinger
GreenLantern Excelsior
J.L.U. Green Lantern
===================
Jeadeen Niles
Phillip Beeswing
KaraZorL Resident
GreenLantern Excelsior
J.L.U. Lantern
===================
Jeadeen Niles
Emiley Tomsen
Glitch Braess
KaraZorL Resident
Siobhan McCallen
Melanippe Karas
GreenLantern Excelsior
J.L.U (Zarathustra)
===================
Hewee Zetkin
Vagabond Carter
Glitch Braess
Carigorp Matzerath
Kalel Venkman

Oh crap, did I accidentally on purpose post that?

Vanish · 08-24-2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

...private, confidential medium.

Okay, just because this has been brought up several times now, and because you seem to be the coder of the lot: Who was/is responsible for the security of that "private, confidential medium"? You?

And: Why?

Innula Zenovka · 08-24-2011, 05:57 PM

/me waves to Hewee ..

You seem to have missed my earlier question, which was:

Quote:

Back in March, your friend Kalel was saying:

Quote:

Of course I know using IP addresses alone is not a reliable technique for identifying alts. There are other means for doing that. Don't presume I have the same or fewer resouces than you do.

What "other means" does he have at his disposal for identifying alts, do you know, and is he using them at the moment? Did he ever use them, do you know and, if so, when did he stop?

If you don't know, or if you don't want to answer the question, either in whole or in part, that's fine. Just so long as I know it didn't get lost in the general hubbub.

Kiddoh · 08-24-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

May I point out something here?

If you start a group inworld, and establish an inworld presence, then clearly you must abide by the inworld TOS. This is clear.

When you do that, and already have linked to a particular goal or aim outside of the confines of SL, those two things become linked. That gets VERY messy very quickly. In fact it's what happened to the JLU *right here in this thread* only worse- they at least can claim, perhaps reasonably, that they started out with no intention of sharing info, etc.

In short:

This is not a good idea. *shakes head slowly*

Now, you're *totally* free to ignore that assessment. But I wanted to state it here because from where I sit, this will not end well.

If there is going to be an inworld protest, I request that no-one from The Wrong Hands or who has been banned take part in that group. LL will perma-ban using guilt by association. I have experienced this first hand--twice.

Let's keep the innocent out of the cross-fire. Economic Engineer, try to get your friend to pass ownership to someone from SLU and get our doods out of that group.

Tux · 08-24-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

Using a URL which was originally obtained dishonestly and was always kept quite private and confidential

It was open in Second Life, you know where you seem to fail to vet the people you give access to residents real life information and actively encourage them to troll families to check someone is actually dead!

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

and similarly for the API queries attempted? Attempting numerous variations including obviously human misspellings when denied? What exactly WOULD you consider hacking of a web interface?

Brilliant I mistype a few URL's and I am hacking an API? Again please prove your accusations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

What information you normally send via your browser and the fact of your connection? Yes, that data you willingly provide when you access a webserver, and it is no longer private. If that is a problem for you, you should probably make an effort to be careful of what domains you access.

The problem arises is when you in turn use the data meant for statistics to stalk people in real life.

Tracer Graves · 08-24-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka

/me waves to Hewee ..

You seem to have missed my earlier question, which was:
If you don't know, or if you don't want to answer the question, either in whole or in part, that's fine. Just so long as I know it didn't get lost in the general hubbub.

Hewee is an oath-sworn liar and he is here as a handler for JLU. I don't buy his bullshit at all and don't expect him to answer ANY of your serious questions adequately.

Menchor Barbosa · 08-24-2011, 05:59 PM

I made a couple of posts early on, and have been reading ever since, and I can see the JLU members need to be reminded of a few things.

1. SL is ultimately a form of game, it is NOT RL and taking things unilaterally to RL for any reason other than economic damage by an individual is a form of stalking. (The way to do this is the way Stroker does this, hint hint)

2. You are not the Lindens. They run SL and assume the liability for actions that may cause problems.

3. I have run into griefers, they are usually a nuisance and I AR them, they are not criminals.

4. Copy botters are criminals, but you don't seem to spend much time chasing them.

5. An AR "party" is an abuse of the AR system and fabricating information for an AR is both immoral and abusive.

Kara Spengler · 08-24-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter

The term's gotten so diluted, man. In the old days, you had to actually write code that did something interesting to be considered a hacker. Now you don't even have to be a script kiddy... you just have to type a link into your browser window. Damn.

One of my pet peeves. I am sure I annoy a lot of people by sticking to the old definition vs the new one though.

Plus there is my "cracker != hacker" button.

Ann Otoole · 08-24-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocksoup Graves

JLU
——
Founded by Kalel Venkman
Group Key: cc7d8ee6-cc07-8f11-193b-8544514143f3
... J.L.U. Full Members
===================
...Cdurd770 Halfpint
...

Hey turns out that police department IP address tracking system belongs to the JLU after all!

**bronxelf** · 08-24-2011, 06:01 PM

Just a note for those following the summary- it will be up LATE tonight. Wednesdays are difficult for me time wise as I have 2 dj sets. Thanks much.

Kate M. · 08-24-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter

The term's gotten so diluted, man. In the old days, you had to actually write code that did something interesting to be considered a hacker. Now you don't even have to be a script kiddy... you just have to type a link into your browser window. Damn.

I wrote a bash script that flips my screen upside down on my notebook. Does that count?!?!?!

**Trasee Darkwatch** · 08-24-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker Serpentine

You're asking for an onslaught of unadulterated dramas. I won't let you

You have better things to do with your SL!

Um, yeah. That would cause a bit of drama wouldn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashiri

There are several groups dedicated to helping new residents. Information on keeping safe in SL from stalking could be made available by these groups... don't know how well it's covered though. I'll check with the groups I'm in.

Yeah, I was thinking more of a specialized group, as opposed to the more generalized one. For people who were interested in knowing and keeping informed of how to stay safe. Including it in the new members groups, though, would certainly be a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

That's actually an excellent idea Trasee. In fact, this is a large part of what the JLU does, especially through our involvement with groups like Proactive Security and GridWatch. We've even given a few presentations on effective estate security and such. This kind of involvement was what brought to our attention the gap that the Phantom Zone is intended to fill. But I fully encourage you to start your own constructive-minded security awareness group. The more the merrier.

Um, I'm sorry, but while you might think that's what they do, I think history has shown us that they are doing the complete opposite. The wiki is living proof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkady Arkright

Let the fact that someone with such a complete lack of judgement thinks it's a good idea put you off it for life, Trasee.

I feel dirty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tux

Personally I would avoid any group in SL. The simple reason is this: It is against TOS to incite hatred etc etc . . . The JLU will AR anyone speaking out against them. They have already been proven to infiltrate groups with the intent of destroying them.

There is no need for an in world group for this. A known independent forum is fine. The JLU has zero authority over external media. Do not let them have the opportunity to have any of you added to their trophy room!

Well, it wasn't about a hate group. It was a group about how to keep yourself secure. Things to avoid, things to do. It wasn't a grandstanding group, anti- anything. It was a teaching group only. If I want to speak out against something, I'd do it here, like I have been in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stroker Serpentine

I have often wondered (stop me now Trasee) if some form of resident arbitration commitee integrated with the G-Team couldn't be implemented. Possibly even a fledgling form of self governance. I know that was always one of Philip's idealistic quests.

/me grabs Stroker and shakes him to his senses.

Don't do it Stroker! You saved me from the jaws of drama, don't let the drama drag you down now!

TL;DR: Lots of good points against starting the group. Was just a passing idea, that looks better as an idea than actual implementation. So I'll pass.

Ryokashi · 08-24-2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

Using a URL which was originally obtained dishonestly and was always kept quite private and confidential, and similarly for the API queries attempted? Attempting numerous variations including obviously human misspellings when denied? What exactly WOULD you consider hacking of a web interface?

You cannot claim a subdomain is private just because you do not give the URL out the URL. The existence of subdomains is not private and you and Kalel are insane for thinking that visiting a publicly accessible page and then leaving without gaining access equates to hacking. Even more so with what Kalel told Cummere about him trying to contact the FBI, Scotland Yard, and the CIA. He is completely delusional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AEther

What information you normally send via your browser and the fact of your connection? Yes, that data you willingly provide when you access a webserver, and it is no longer private. If that is a problem for you, you should probably make an effort to be careful of what domains you access.

You are insane if you think visiting your website gives you the right to compile personal information on anyone you do not like. The IP is one thing, gathering real names and tracking people down is another. It is deranged and you are a terrible person for thinking that counting the death of a human being as beneficial to you, and going as far as to stalk their family members to confirm the death.

Micaela Darkwatch · 08-24-2011, 06:05 PM

Hewee,

Do you believe that the private information such as,medical data, number of children in household, workplace information, real name, spouse name, and yes, IP address, etc. is pertinent to the JLU's stated mission?

Potosi · 08-24-2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mocksoup Graves

JLU
——
Founded by Kalel Venkman
Group Key: cc7d8ee6-cc07-8f11-193b-8544514143f3
Owners
===================
Kalel Venkman
Kara Timtam
J.L.U. – Officers
===================
Hewee Zetkin
Rodimal Axon

snip snip snip

Glitch Braess
Carigorp Matzerath
Kalel Venkman

Oh crap, did I accidentally on purpose post that?

Oops and I accidently copy pasted that to my blog. I'm such a butter fingers.

Kiddoh · 08-24-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potosi

Oops and I accidently copy pasted that to my blog. I'm such a butter fingers.

Shit, I just quoted your post that links to the post you quoted and posted on your blog.

**Misty Harley** · 08-24-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiddoh

If there is going to be an inworld protest, I request that no-one from The Wrong Hands or who has been banned take part in that group. LL will perma-ban using guilt by association. I have experienced this first hand--twice.

Let's keep the innocent out of the cross-fire. Economic Engineer, try to get your friend to pass ownership to someone from SLU and get our doods out of that group.

Aww crap....I just said they were my heros. Fucking hero's no less.

My inventory...

Screw it..they still are right now. (because regardless of their own personal reasons for doing this....this all came to light because of them.)

Rez a prim penis near me and I'll think twice about that status

TheListSL · 08-24-2011, 06:07 PM

PhantomZone users and installations

JLU Leaks - The List: PhantomZone Users

Please keep in mind these are owners who may or may not have them out now!

Quote:

Avi Arrow/Ivory Tower
Avi Arrow/Tumble Arrow
Mechagliel Gears/Ambrosia
Kara Foley/TARDIS Security
Aizur Zessinthal/AZREtest
Smitty Boyau/Dublin
Theo Adonide/Metazone
Oronde Glass/Sailor Senshi
Hewee Zetkin/testing1
Cdurd770 Halfpint/PD
victoria paule/Happy Hippo
David1 Broadmoor/Aftershock
Thomas Shikami/Surreal
DBDigital Epsilon/SS Galaxy
Michi Lumin/Luskwood
B0bby Baxton/D2A
LaraCroft Akula/VBucharest
Emiley Tomsen/Phantom Zone
Emiley Tomsen/ThisIslandEarth
Vagabond Carter/StarkReality
Melody Regent/Regent Estates
Glitch Braess/Gotham City
Boyd Doghouse/Parktown
Trevor Capelo/Capelot
Ntanel Swordthain/IFT
Phoenixflames Kukulcan/pknet
Mahala Bing/Overcomers
Atlwolf Blabbermouth/BadWolf
Jack Abraham/Atlantis
Rhialto Tereshchenko/Bespin
Gillian Snowbear/Happy Hippos
Tensai Hilra/Steelhead
BamBam Rockin/Beautiful Sin
hujack Dastardly/My Lair
Zania Turner/UFS
Mal Goldfarb/Rock A Bye
KaneHusky Landar/Husky Inc
Kalel Venkman/HumbleBeginnings
Kalel Venkman/League of Heroes
GreenLantern Excelsior/Dark City
SteelCobra Calamari/Steeltopia
Theopneustos Silverweb/GenesisZone
any1 Gynoid/Any1
Jacon Cortes/Antiquity

Sione · 08-24-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracer Graves

But you'll betray everyone they target. Aren't you the noble soul? What exactly does your JLU oath require of you?

I am starting to think it involves a crossroads.

Ann Otoole · 08-24-2011, 06:09 PM

This needs to be dealt with in civil court and each person in JLU and on LL's governance team be named as defendants along with the LL CEO. If he doesn't like being accountable for his staff then he can replace them with people that are not on psychogenic therapy.

In fact LL needs to review medical records and lay off anyone on psychogenic therapy medications to get rid of the liabilities.

Kate M. · 08-24-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

...replace them with people that need to be on psychogenic therapy.

FIXED :V

NotoriousD · 08-24-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Code Slacker

Why does she have to tell you to remove it? It should've been removed long ago.

This, times numbers I couldn't even begin to comprehend without saying "infinity".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Economic Engineer

JLU Definitions

Stalking: Following a JLU member in a public sandbox and pasting their UUID.

Hacking: Looking for sub domains on their website in a broswer.

meanwhile they try to justify or sidestep their own actions.

Aether
First off, any attempts to claim that the information serves a purpose are by default bullshit, as GLE and ZenMondo have both stated that they disagree with the information added to the wiki and that it serves no real purpose in your general actions and goals.

Granted, they don't do shit to stop it, but still. Two JLU members have already stated that medical history and much of that RL info serves no purpose in the group's main goals. Therefore, coming here and trying to justify what it serves will just create some form of hypocrisy and controversy with what your group is trying to tell us. Another reason why your mere word isn't exactly trustworthy.

Secondly, and I have stated this before elsewhere:

General JLU method and tactic since the 2010 wiki leak has involved the following two things:

1. Shift as much focus and blame on TWH, WU, and griefers, saying that they are to blame for the info being public. As much as possible, all the time. I've seen the JLU focus more on the fact that TWH leaked the wiki than the fact that it contained RL info, and even then the focus was on the fact that thanks to them, that info is public. Completely avoiding the fact that you lot had the info in the first place, and even when regarding that subject, trying to justify it.

2. Claim that it was your private and confidential property, even though it contained information rightfully owned by other people. You can't lay claim to copyright on someone's RL name, medical conditions, children, etc.

Sorry, but your shit doesn't fly as good as monkey's.

08-24-2011, 05:59 PM	#3860 (permalink)
Menchor Barbosa I like Mainland Mostly Harmless Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mainland Posts: 1,624 My Mood: SL Join Date: March 4, 2007 Client: Firestorm	I made a couple of posts early on, and have been reading ever since, and I can see the JLU members need to be reminded of a few things. 1. SL is ultimately a form of game, it is NOT RL and taking things unilaterally to RL for any reason other than economic damage by an individual is a form of stalking. (The way to do this is the way Stroker does this, hint hint) 2. You are not the Lindens. They run SL and assume the liability for actions that may cause problems. 3. I have run into griefers, they are usually a nuisance and I AR them, they are not criminals. 4. Copy botters are criminals, but you don't seem to spend much time chasing them. 5. An AR "party" is an abuse of the AR system and fabricating information for an AR is both immoral and abusive. __________________ Baroness Menchor, the Deadly, of the Great Army of the Invincible Infidel, Whose Great Swarms of Evil and Horror Laid Waste to the Souls of a Million True Believers and Left Their Souls Rotting in the Summer Sun for the Buzzards to to Ravish as Their Souls Sunk to the Depths of Torment and Hopelessness, Abandoned by Their Gods. Youth and strength can almost always be overcome by old age and treachery

08-24-2011, 06:01 PM	#3863 (permalink)
bronxelf GAF *SLU Supporter* Goth when goth was. Also, socially unacceptable. Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New York City Posts: 5,300 My Mood: SL Join Date: May 13, 2008 Business: Beautiful Freak/Club Gothika/Damned Good Design SL/House of Rain/Pale Empress Client: Firestorm.	Just a note for those following the summary- it will be up LATE tonight. Wednesdays are difficult for me time wise as I have 2 dj sets. Thanks much. __________________

08-24-2011, 06:05 PM	#3867 (permalink)
Micaela Darkwatch Wanderer and Lurker Here, there, and nowhere Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a desert Posts: 311 My Mood: SL Join Date: Original September 2006 Client: Firestorm and Phoenix	Hewee, Do you believe that the private information such as,medical data, number of children in household, workplace information, real name, spouse name, and yes, IP address, etc. is pertinent to the JLU's stated mission? __________________ ~ I mean, who am I? That's the real question, isn't it? Who am I? Who are you? What other questions are there? What other questions are there, really? If you want to understand the universe, embrace the universe, the door to the universe is you!~

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08-24-2011, 05:56 PM	#3854 (permalink)
Mocksoup Graves Senior Member *SLU Supporter* Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,786 My Mood: Blog Entries: 1	JLU —— Founded by Kalel Venkman Group Key: cc7d8ee6-cc07-8f11-193b-8544514143f3 Owners =================== Kalel Venkman Kara Timtam J.L.U. – Officers =================== Hewee Zetkin Rodimal Axon Fenix Harbinger Maverick Grunfeld KaraZorL Resident Samantha Lowell Melanippe Karas GreenLantern Excelsior Kalel Venkman Kara Timtam J.L.U. – Recruit =================== Fierce Galewind Sumalee capelo Baht McMahon Kaemilla Sutter Elaine Fairport Jetta Bentham Razor Indigo Dezdemona Xenno Tensai Hilra J.L.U. Full Members =================== Gawyn Philbin Jaedeen Niles Phillip Beeswing Dawg Shatzkin Kara Timtam Hewee Zetkin Cdurd770 Halfpint Walden Mannonen Eugenia Burton MartianManhunter Resident Emiley Tomsen Rodimal Axon Vagabond Carter Sam Brautigan Bobkoe Nirvana Glitch Braess Elaine Fairport Fenix Harbinger Piper Craven Maverick Grunfeld Jetta Bentham KaraZorL Resident Siobhan McCallen Razor Indigo Ookamisuke Babenco Searra Weatherwax Dash Curry Kohaku Owatatsumi Ginrai Yamabushi Heidi Stiglitz Samantha Lowell Melanippe Karas Tsu Goodliffe Zania Turner Jewelsy Walsh Ta Moxie Kalel Venkman ZenMondo Wormser GreenLantern Excelsior Selene Hudson J.L.U. Mentor =================== Emiley Tomsen Fenix Harbinger GreenLantern Excelsior J.L.U. Green Lantern =================== Jeadeen Niles Phillip Beeswing KaraZorL Resident GreenLantern Excelsior J.L.U. Lantern =================== Jeadeen Niles Emiley Tomsen Glitch Braess KaraZorL Resident Siobhan McCallen Melanippe Karas GreenLantern Excelsior J.L.U (Zarathustra) =================== Hewee Zetkin Vagabond Carter Glitch Braess Carigorp Matzerath Kalel Venkman Oh crap, did I accidentally on purpose post that?

08-24-2011, 06:09 PM	#3873 (permalink)
Ann Otoole Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 16,374	This needs to be dealt with in civil court and each person in JLU and on LL's governance team be named as defendants along with the LL CEO. If he doesn't like being accountable for his staff then he can replace them with people that are not on psychogenic therapy. In fact LL needs to review medical records and lay off anyone on psychogenic therapy medications to get rid of the liabilities.

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