Joshua Nightshade

Jopsy, who cares? I'm not talking about you, or discussing the finer nuances of what an identity is. The difference is quite apparent, and the whining over this issue is obnoxious.

Stop trying to emulate Argent on the Hair-Split Express.

Joshua Nightshade

It likely came down to whether or not someone got reported. It doesn't look like Facebook went about investigating.

Jopsy Pendragon

Thank you, that really made me chuckle!

And meh, who cares about anyone else, I'm just trying to make sure my own ass is covered... not left hanging out in the breeze by providing too much RL data and not left vulnerable for NOT providing too much RL data.

Most people complaining probably have duplicate FB accounts anyway, one for the SL avatar one for their RL stuff. If they're doing that and get caught, well, it's unfortunate but expected.

Anya Ristow

If you host-file block google's ad services and usage tracking, search in Viewer 2 is even less useful than it otherwise is. The buttons don't work, so you are limited to ALL search, and you can't click on teleport or profile. You can kinda get around the former by typing coords into the map, but I haven't found a way to get a profile out of the fucking thing.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2465?

Joshua Nightshade

The majority of people storming Facebook's gates over this are not fringe cases like you where their SL name is a variation of their real life one — though I doubt Pendragon is, so you're probably still running afoul of the clause anyway, but that's between you and Facebook.

The point I am making, however, is that it's not a SL social network — there are a bunch that are, with much better reputations around SL avatars in the first place. I don't go to Facebook because I want SL interactions. I have a handful of SL people on my friends list and all of them are people I know in real life. I have gotten requests from others that I politely declined because I didn't want SL avatars in my friends list; this inevitably gets tremendously pissy remarks from the people in question.

I don't care what name someone wants to go by in SL or whether or not they want to firewall their SL identity from their RL one. I respect that. I don't feel the same way, personally, and I find the firewalling tremendously strange, but I don't really give a shit as long as someone isn't being deceptive. It's incredibly infuriating that this respect is not given back to people like me who don't separate the two and don't want virtual identities in their real life spaces. There's a place for that, and it's not Facebook. I'm not going to go invade 2nd Place or whatever it is and demand that people post their RL photos and addresses, but that's essentially what the flip side is demanding. "Reconfigure the purpose of this site for my wants or I will throw a tantrum."

It's just bullying.

Velvet Bikcin

I'm with Joshua on this. I keep FB very real. It's where I talk about human rights, it's where I interact with my nephews and nieces. It's where I keep up with my co-worker's kids. I follow my local candidates and share local news with my friends.

SL for me is an escape from that. I don't go into SL to talk about human rights, I go into SL to buzz my neighbours with one of Cubey's planes.

Facebook's business model revolves around selling real people's data to marketters. If you don't like that, don't sign up. Being clever with fake names and mixed up spelling is great but Facebook has the right under their TOS to yank the service from you if your behaviour is diminishing their business model.

__________________
"Don't touch the things, this is a local shop for local people, there's nothing for you here."

Mabb Dilweg

That argument would hold water if facebook was the *only* place you could do that, but it's not. Let's use a little perspective here people.

Abdul is far safer using Twitter, which by the way is really not that small. Plus, last time I looked, it wasn't flooded with ads and games.

__________________

The Roar of the Lions' Coming Together will echo around the World.
The Glory of Their Union will Light up the Firmament;
And as the Faithful rejoice, those who did not Believe shall be stricken, and burn in the Fires of Envy.
The Book of Awesome, Revelations 7:18

Ciaran Laval

Only if people know you really are the RL geek with 25+ years experience, but Facebook comments also make RL geeks with 25+ years experience not comment because of the links that can be made, it's quite the double edged sword.

Ciaran Laval

Right, that's how I've used Facebook too, keeping in touch with RL friends and family.

I have very little sympathy with those who were caught in the purge.

However Facebook is going beyond its own borders and that's what I don't like about it, Facebook comments are one example, Hamlet's talk about Facebook intergration is another, when Facebook crosses over people get less choice not more.

Ryanna Enfield

What I kept thinking about when reading this from you is how much Linden Lab throws around Facebook as the place to go for Second Life related things though. I think that is just as much trying to throw that fake aspect into a space that Facebook, you, and many others want to keep as a place for real life identities.

So do you feel that Linden Lab, and even Hamlet are encouraging bullying with regards to this issue? I really am curious about that. Because in my opinion, I think it is disrespectful of LL to keep suggesting Facebook as a valid place for avatars, and even make it so that certain Second Life events and promotions require FB accounts. Hamlet's ideas around it to me are even more in your face type bullying to both sides of the issue.

I agree with you that it is silly to be ticked that FB deleted your SL avatar FB account, when the FB TOS and Zuckerberg's stance on it are very clear. Admittedly, it did take me some time not being a very technical person myself, to really understand the implications of just signing up for a Facebook account after my family and friends had been begging me to do so. I have since cancelled my Facebook account, but it is too late and the information is out there.

Joshua Nightshade

But do you understand that LL does that on their own, without any input or involvement from Facebook in the first place?

Yes, it is asinine, but as I said before, LL is probably doing that because Facebook is The Hip New Thing and they probably aren't even paying attention to the fact that it's a violation of their terms of service. Yes, I absolutely believe the managers in charge of that Facebook push are that out of touch with everything.

Absolutely. And, Hamlet is an idiot. News at 11.

Ciaran Laval

To be fair to LL, I have never seen them suggest that people should create avatar profiles on Facebook. People have done that of their own accord.

LL have been silly with their Facebook push and that may have made some people think it was ok to create SL profiles on Facebook, especially when they read the SL Facebook page and see what appear to be avatar profiles commenting on the wall, but LL have never directly said it's ok to create such profiles.

Brenda Archer

Due to the privacy problems with Facebook I am even uncomfortable using it for my "real life," whatever that is. The only reason I haven't deleted my account yet is because I share it with co-workers. That also means I don't say anything in there I wouldn't broadcast in the company break room.

It means I can't use my Facebook account for things like blog commenting except rarely, since I am trying to not spam my co-workers.

What I don't get are the people in this thread - where we are not novices to online issues - insisting I should want to combine this part of my "real life" with other parts of it, such as my personal friends and family, or my political or religious networks. Because I do not want to do that. I have the most liberal boss you could have and still be working for a U.S. corporation, but because not everyone is like that, I'm not going to have my work and political identities too much mixed up in Facebook.

And that doesn't even account for my more off-the-wall activities such as WoW gaming or what kinds of art I like to look at.

The idea of appropriateness goes out the window when you mix together your work and social life in the public square in a way people have never done before. I can't understand why people get all pissy when other people want some privacy from them. Yes, just because you are my co-worker on Facebook does not mean you get to know who the people in my social life are.

It's this collapsing of one's social circles into a homogeneous blob that makes Facebook unusable for me. I want a section of my real life to be off-limits to potential employers - and we have laws to protect that. Zuckerberg doesn't get to take that away from us, but people are so naive online.

But the thing I worry about more is - identity theft. Not for myself, it's a manageable risk, but for the many (often older) people coming online for the first time who have NO idea what they are doing.

We can get smug and say users should educate themselves but that assumes a user who is already savvy enough to ask the question. The whole situation is quite predatory. The common mindset that assumes suits with money get to become self-styled authority figures, would hand to anyone with cash the kind of powers that should only belong to individuals and, sometimes, to governments. It's an unfortunate mix when people with this mentality come online and are naive about predation.

Our little walled garden of SL isn't much in the larger scheme of things, but the idea that you should post your whole real life in a public space is so naive I don't know where to start. I have seen someone get fired for Facebook remarks, which I have not seen before in any other context. Am I nervous about the whole thing, absolutely!

Joshua Nightshade

Who has said this?

Joshua Nightshade

Actually, who has said anything about any of this stuff either?

I think you've grossly misunderstood my position on this issue. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything. If you don't want to connect your RL identity to your SL one, you don't have to. Nobody is forcing you to do that.

But if you choose to register for Facebook under an identity that is in violation of their Terms of Service, you have made that choice. You're not obligated to use your RL name — you're not obligated to make an account at all. But if you choose to make one, you have to follow the rules. I really don't understand where people keep missing this.

It's as if I went to a social function which told people to show up in costumes from the 1920s, and I was dressed as a space alien because I don't like the 1920s. It makes you a bit of an asshole.

Otherwise, I don't disagree with you, but then again nobody's brought up anything along those lines in the first place either so I don't know why you're defending. People overshare too much as it is, but that's a totally separate issue to someone wilfully registering for a site with a specific focus and disregarding said focus because they don't want to be a part of it. Don't use the site then; much simpler.

Siggy

hahah some drama is just as good the second time around.

In another two to three years when they do the third sweep through, I wonder if we'll have the same arguments and indignation AGAIN.

That would rock.

__________________
And as it was in the beginning, so too shall it be in the end. That bullshit is bullshit, it just goes by different names.

Joshua Nightshade

I wasn't here the first time.

Brenda Archer

Not saying you did, for whatever that's worth.

But I do want to ask you, does it bother you that Facebook has a model where your boss, your parents, your dates, and your religious network are all mixed together in one amorphous blob?

The concept bothers me totally separately from any particular implementation, whether it's Facebook or any other. If I wanted to live in a village where my whole life consisted of the same fifty people, all of whom knew each other at the intimacy level of first cousins, I would do that. Most of us choose on purpose NOT to do that.

But that's Zuckerberg's model of human relations. And I see people just accepting this as a definition of a "real life presence" as if that was just a given. It's not a given. It's unusual for modern people and has been since the Victorian era at least.

So what I'm trying to say, and I apologize for being clumsy about it - there's a social model here, quite apart from any particular company or its technology, that I find really noxious. A lot of the limited social progress we have today pretty much depends on being able to compartmentalize the parts of our lives where we have connections to people who don't have to like each other, even they both like us.

I'm not going to put my intolerant evangelical co-worker and my pagan artist friend together in the same room. I have to relate to both of them, but on Facebook having them show up in the same comments thread is just a flamewar. How awkward. Not having a way to compartmentalize people by itself can be "chilling," to borrow that useful word. People need walls around social spaces.

And also, being targeted for hate because of one's religious identity is in the near memory of many people, including myself. Intolerant people are much more likely to go on the attack if something they don't like to see is put directly in front of them. Sometimes this is a good thing, but I'd rather pick my battles.

Brenda Archer

I'm sorry you thought I was reacting to you particularly, because I was not.

Brenda Archer

I haven't set up an account on Facebook for my avatar, anyway. But I have to turn down most people with avatar accounts who would like to friend me, which is not a situation I like to be put into.

Ciaran Laval

You can relive the moment here:

New World Notes: Gone Sideways: Facebook Bans Second Life Avatar

Joshua Nightshade

Well, at some point some common sense has to come into play. People are responsible for themselves and if you decide to add your boss to Facebook then complain about work, or demonstrate that you're slacking off while you're supposed to be working, that will resolve itself on its own really.

I avoid adding certain people (friends, family, coworkers) or I add them and restrict what on my profile they have access to. I don't mind my mother seeing photos I've added of a vacation, but I don't want her leaving comments where people from work or SL are going to go "um your mom is on Facebook dude." You can still set up those walls and place people into groups and restrict what they can see and comment on, although most people don't care and leave on the defaults until they realise why that's not a brilliant idea.

I don't disagree with you here, but I also don't see what this has to do with this issue.

Okay. I was confused because I didn't see anyone arguing against the points you were making at all, and as I'm really the only person here defending Facebook disabling SL accounts I didn't know who you were referring to.

Sione

LL jumped on Facebook and Twitter because that is where the cool kids hang, they are potential new customers. SL's Facebook presence is not really intended for existing users, we have the website/blogs, it's a front to get existing users to spread the word and do free advertising. LL do not care what kind of Facebook account you have as long as you are out there talking about Second Life.

Brenda Archer

Thanks. Well, the problem with using the Facebook settings to try to divide people up is that then Facebook goes and changes them - which they did shortly after I signed up, and now I totally distrust them to not do it again. So I limit who I can friend, but that's NOT how Facebook was designed to be used.

Brenda Archer

The deliberate naivete of certain Lindens about how online communities work continues to astonish me.

LL and every other company with an interest in the social game should be trying every moment to have a replacement for Facebook, one THEY can monetize, instead of trying to attach themselves to its glamour.

I also realize that the older people in decision making positions in most companies are more naive about the interwebs than younger people can even fathom. Yes, I am even including people who are technically competent in this criticism, if they have not been participating in online communities, they know nothing about it. Facebook's draw, for these naive decision makers, is its celebrity status as a marketing tool, which will promptly go away for anyone who is not actually paying them for advertising and getting measurable results. I give it no more than a year.