Lady Sakai

Can I ad something?
"Further more any and all such devices must seek explicit concent to optain information and rights to be stored in any database. Appeals must be provided inworld. Any information and appelas must be provided in all major languages to ensure the users understands the implications thereoff"

(Personally Id prefer it not to be used at all )

DanielRavenNest

And you wonder why they won't let you connect on Twitter?

Sling Trebuchet

Ever since I heard about RZ and then naturally thought of variants, I've been saying "Nuke the in-world elements".
All the talk of RL laws is irrelevant. Ad-Farms..... What law was that?

The place to start is with a general statement about responsible behavior when presented with a platform for the imagination.
From 2008 until mid-February, my forum sig was Maggi Linden
There should be a privacy policy that gives privacy to individual avatars. It goes beyond privacy for natural persons - 'personal' = 'avatar'.
Something along the lines of European-standard privacy laws should be in force. There are standards that data controllers have to conform to.

Any device in SL that logs information about avatars should register and conform to the privacy standard for avatars.
The purpose for which that data is being collected should be known. Use for any other purpose not allowed.

There is an enforcement issue in the LL's jurisdiction ends where its network meets the Internet.
That is balanced to a huge extent by the fact that inside that cloud, LL have absolute power.

People are going to try any trick in the book. They are going to write new books. New books are part of what SL is about.
Any new privacy invasion has to have a breadth of coverage across the grid. It's hard to keep that a secret - particularly if it's to be revenue earning.

If any system is found, nuke the in-world elements.

If an abusive third-party server is identified, block it from the SL net.





Well THIS, THAT, THESE and throw in a THOSE for good measure.

Asking us to AR some blatant abuse is insane.
They should be proactively heading this sort of thing off.

They should get the policy together before anybody ARs prims.
They should be nuking any Marketplace listings.
They should be opening the objects and looking at scripts. They should be nuking the scripts via the asset servers.

When I saw Soft in the JIRA saying ....
....... I thought "WTF"
No. I tell a lie. My thought was more like:

The moment I heard about RZ, all the alarms went off.
What sort of morons are Lindens that they are incapable of recognising the abuse and the obvious fallouts?

That JIRA is insane.
When that rubbish about Watching v. Voting came out, I actually changed my sig to say "watch" for a few days.
Then I had an attack of sanity, and changed it back to Vote.



And now... Ta Daaaaa! Time for me to mention the other form of privacy invasion that I've been banging on about.
Location tracking and history.
It's obvious that there is a huge demand for systems that allow people to poke their noses into the business of others. Take all the alt-matching out of the known products and you still have a tracking system. All it takes is a network of scanners and/or cheap bots roaming the grid.

What's the bets that this will be the trigger for yet another drama in the future and a whole bunch of people getting dis-enamoured with SL?



I'm pretty sick of SL right now. It's poisoned.

__________________
Violation of your Data Privacy via the SL viewer and in-world objects within LL's control.
Please READ on this issue - It's not over! https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746
Second Life - "Your World, Some Random Nutter's Database."
!quit

Erie

What is this forum about again?

I have lost track.

Puitia

Anybody got a gif of a Troll with his pants down? Jiras are becoming quite the spectator sport :-)

Sid Nagy

One question I would like to have answered:
WTF is that Redzone?
A fashionista thingy?

Sling Trebuchet

It is about the soul of SL.

It's about cheesy behaviour as well as cheesy beacons.

Sextan Shepherd

not a fashionista thing.. just a fashion thread! some of us don't like the red color, that's all we are talking about

__________________
I sit here in the thunder
The green on the grey
I feel it all around me

Sextan Shepherd

Sling you perfectly know that LL consider themself more as a Judge than a police squad, so yes just like a judge, they wait for us to bring proof that a crime was commited (spelling?)

It has always been that way in SL, people are in need of Drama, they feel "alive" thanks to the drama. I makes me think of those TV Reality programms, poeple are watching that on tv just and only for the dramas. It's the human nature. We are more focusing on what the others do than on our own acts, it's a way to minimise our responsabilities.. you know "Yes I did this but look at what he did!!

So don't be sick of SL because someone brought a tool for Drama-Lamas, don't be sick of SL because people are in demand for spy device, it's not the fault of SL if it's filled with humans.

Sling Trebuchet

[quote=Sextan Shepherd;1180620]Sling you perfectly know that LL consider themself more as a Judge than a police squad, so yes just like a judge, they wait for us to bring proof that a crime was commited (spelling?)

LL are the policy makers and the law makers.
A judge is constrained by the letter of the law, with armies of lawyers to nit-pick over every word.
In the case of something like RedZone and its cousins, this should have been an immediate policy response.



Its not the people in SL who make me sick. Nothing has changed there. They are human and SL amplifies that.

It's the people in LL that are the big disappointment for me. It's been a few things..

• The state that Ad-Farming had to get to
• The blatant traffic-botting
• The Zindra mess
• The muppetry about communicating and listening
• What I found when the Teen Grid was opened
• and now their silence on privacy issues.

I'm sick of them.

Eva Ryan

This is gonna be sorta of long, as it's 3am and I can't sleep.

I too feel that my SecondLife has been thrown to the trash heap because we are fighting a virtual war in SL. But, it's not only SL; it's also across the internet. The internet has brought out the sort of lawlessness that normal society generally inhibits through social norms and laws. The internet has given us anonymity and it's through this anonymity that the face of men and women really shows their true colors. People that are nice and cuddly in real life can be total assholes and bitches when given anonymity and no repercussions for their actions. Anonymity has empowered people like zFire and CrackerJack to go ahead and be as they truly are. They were given the tools and the motivation to create something that we, those that have decent standards, norms, and morals wouldn't dream of doing because we know better in our hearts and minds that this is wrong and that just because something can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it should be done.

But, is it really their fault? Well, yes, it is their fault. The fault; however, is shared with Linden Lab. LL has for too long taken a lax view of account security as a whole. They created the perfect storm for residents that would take advantage of a system for their own ends. It's always been an axiom that if an exploit exists, it will be exploited. You can't leave the door unlocked and expect burgerlers not to come in and take all your stuff just because the law says you can't. That; however, seems be the stance that LL has taken because locking the door isn't a priority. LL has created this wonderful world of SecondLife; but, it seems they don't want to take responsibility to actually run it.

But, is it really their fault? Well, yes, it is their fault. It's their fault because the capitalist system says the bottom line is what's most important, not the customers. They have a responsibility to the venture capitalists that pumps money into the system and lines the pockets of the top executives and everyone knows that it's a dog-eat-dog world out there and they'll only look out for themselves. Greed works and the customers are nothing but peasants.

And now, I actually do feel like a peasant. Cast away through lack of attention on this one issue. LL leaves the door open and zFire and his ilk ransacking the place for all of our private information.

I'm not normally one to pick up on a crusade. I was perfectly fine in SL going out clubbing, socializing, having fun, building things as well as most of all you have. But, it's disconcerting to know that where ever you go to club, socialize with, have fun with or just being alone in a sandbox to build things, there's someone out there pickpocketing your information. Information that we did not consent to give... no, just taken, because it can be taken.

When copybotting came out, I took to stop producing things. I used to be a damned good builder. I used to own two sims, and had a wonderful place to role play. But, now I can't really make things anymore for fear that someone's going to come along and copy what I've made and sell it as made by themselves. Okay, got it, it's a digital world out there, and anything digital can be copied. But, why waste my time on a slow and agonizing process when it saves so much more time to not bother anymore? I still stuck around, though. I like SL. I like most of the people in SL, and that's what I'm really there for.

I've become dispondant with Second Life though. It used to be an actual fun place to be; but, no longer. I've tiered down my land holdings, as I'm not gonna give LL more money than necessary. Until LL changes their policy of "Meh", I'm not going to anymore. They don't deserve it.

For things to change, we have to wage the battle on two fronts. LL from the top down, and us from the bottom up. At least we can say that we won't tolerate behavior that zFire and co. seem to be perfectly okay with. We have mostly the knowledge and skill needed to take back our Second Life for what it was meant to be. We don't own the platform.. so, it has to be a two way street. Come on, Linden Lab, help us out here, will you. We're doing our part.

__________________

ElyHynes Elysium

@EvaRyanSL is so FIC Humble follows her

Erie

I promise I *WILL* protect my privacy,
turn off media, turn off music, turn off cookies,
and turn off all SL Viewers.

Someone said this process is resulting in knowing more about SL ppl and not in a good way. I second that thought. There is apparently no actual true fact that cannot be twisted and dismissed, and get you abused. I know actual facts used to matter.

Oh and I am not a creator or seller of anything, am I not allowed here? I am not allowed to object to spying and other problems in SL? I cannot be in the club?

The death of SL will be slow, caused by new virtual worlds that are not walled off and locked down and manipulated by a single organization.

Sling Trebuchet

If I were to sum up LL, then it would be lack of respect for the residents.

Even if they recognise that there is an issue, they are trying to sweep it under the carpet.
Nothing in Blogs. No agreement to new TOS/CS on login. Forums sanitised. JIRA left open as a place for people to vent, but knowing that an insignificant number of residents ever heard of a JIRA - never mind the forums.

LL wouldn't recognise an ethic if it bit them.



I wrote in You are being tracked in SL by third parties and t... - Page 3 - Second Life
........

Kara Spengler

I suspect even if the TOS had a clause that said "Any product that has any involvement of zFire Xue, xis alts, or anyone who has ever now or in the future even talked with xir is hereby prohibited." zFire would *STILL* think there was wiggle room to produce a product be compliant.

Tonya Souther

Argh. Why the fuck am I still reading this crap?

*plonk*

Kara Spengler

Great!

I saw the entries at phoenix-firestorm-lgpl: shortlog last night and cheered when I did. One thing I was curious about though ... now there are no entries between last night and 2 weeks ago but earlier yesterday there had been changes in that window? Am I looking at the wrong URL?

To compile myself or wait and test the same thing everyone else does? Hmm ...

Tonya Souther

The media patch shows you what the URL is. It doesn't actually let your viewer connect and play the media unless you allow it to.

That's been fixed in Phoenix versions with the media filter. If you turn "let scripts control my play button" off now, then a script cannot cause media to play, period.

I'm not. Different emphases, different functions. That could even be good if they were having the people actually provide customer service. Of course, we all know the reality there...

This is a result of how Mercurial does merging of a long series of changes from other repositories. Scroll down past the long series of Liny's entries. You'll see what happened.

Argent Stonecutter

No thanks. The only entity that would have a chance of actually being able to tell who's really an alt of someone else is Linden Lab, and even they've been wrong on occasion.

__________________
Argent Stonecutter -- Skyhook Station -- Coonspiracy Store

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."


The previous is a cybernetic datum published - in direct contravention of DoD Regulation #229RR3X3 - as being conducive to the physical, psychological and/or social well-being of the population.

Melodie Darwin

My SL used to involve lots of random exploring, people watching, music and voice. I enjoyed passing by a place and hearing 2 avatars talking in another language in open chat. It was a sensory part of just how global SL is. I kept music on to broaden my musical tastes that I might not encounter otherwise. (The only ones I generally turned off were the chock full o' ads.)

Now... meh. I listen to the same internet radio station outside of SL and forget that I am logged in, or to even log in at all. I generally have a lot of other windows open as well and the music change was one of the indicators I used that a TP completed or not. The lack of trust in what I might connect to has made the world very one dimensional to me.

The RL equivalent of what SL is now for me is a restaurant where the admission is pretty steep. After putting my phone in a locker I have the rest of my belongings scanned. I then pass through a metal detector and try to smile innocently at the 3 no-neck armed sheriff deputies standing guard. The difference is that its in a courthouse.

SL is whatever you make it. Above all else, its an escape. Or it was. There is nothing in the Rz places that make me willing to open myself, or more importantly anyone else to that type of invasion. There's enough of that in RL.

__________________

Lady Sakai

Fixed that for you

Kara Spengler

What really gets me frustrated is that they refer to themselves as hackers. Then other people support that delusion by calling them that.

Meanwhile I stick to the old school definition of hacker. Basically, someone who is a skilled/creative programmer (and a few other social traits) and wants to explore beyond the box. They would never even *think* of breaking something.

So even though the following applies:

* I was programming before HS and bought my own computer with paper route money when a kid doing so was unheard of.
* Have 20 years of experience since the first job I was paid to program for.
* Have been in trouble a few times in college just because I knew about a security hole others wanted people not to see (have to love security through hoping nobody knows something).
* Long ago stopped counting how many languages I knew --- and if I don't know it I can bluff it.
* Have been the senior programmer on a top secret cleared job that was the subject of a few conspiracy theories.
* No need to list more, you get the general idea.

I am still loathe to refer to myself as a hacker. That script kiddies/crackers would assume the term, and be supported in such by almost everyone, is so offensive it is hard to even describe.

Qie Niangao

A few things, as I was catching up.

Some posts from people who are tired or disheartened. It's a natural response, but we've seen some Linden action, and reasonable hope for more. Probably not that many posters here were much involved in the long war of attrition against the adfarmers, but that took much longer to get even the first Linden acknowledgement of the problem, and literally years to begin making actual progress. Sling, for one, surely remembers. I won't bore everyone (just yet) with what was learned from all that, except to say: It's not about which side is loudest (tonight, Ash Qin will be playing the part of Ancient Shriner), but about which side never gives up the fight.

I had a somewhat similar thought when looking at the Sparrow Industries gizmo: How many units could one sell of a device that was advertised to do exactly the same thing, but in fact only detected and reported alts of the owner? It would of course be useless--except as a means of finding dipshit drahma-mongers and "security" addicts with more L$s than sense. Fraudulent, sure, but if fools are eager to part with their money, shouldn't someone oblige?

Well... I'm still not so sure about that.

Here's how I suppose LL's magic alt-banning toolkit works: Using all automated detection methods combined, they outdo Redzone by some margin... say, 30% fewer misses and 80% fewer false alarms. For every additional man-hour they invest in finding one account's alts, they can reduce remaining errors by half (say), asymptotically approaching accuracy.

Now suppose they give landowners the magic automated methods. Some "alts" will get banned who shouldn't, and some will be missed. Suddenly all those errors are the Lab's problem. Obviously there's no way they can afford to allow Support to handle any of those errors, so instead they have to provide the service "as is".

"As is" is fine for shadow rendering, Windlight, and most everything else in SL, but whenever god forbid LL for any reason bans anybody they shouldn't, the aggrieved party squeals like a stuck pig. Is it really wise to equip every SL landowner with automatic stuck pig generators?

Kara Spengler

Doh! Thanks!

Argent Stonecutter

Yah, LL doesn't have infinite resources and they have already spent a lot of time and effort over the period I've been involved in SL adding new options for landowners to deal with the roaming griffer, and since 2006 that's become less and less of an issue. It's a redzone red herring.

Meanwhile, they haven't done anything to implement any kind of parcel privacy despite having promised over and over again to look into it and encouraging suggestions, and they haven't provided many options for dealing with abusive landowners other than putting up big walls that don't work very well.

Lady Sakai

Yea I know that, I was merely trying to ad that bit to the TOS suggestions stated earlier.
Thing is that if LL do not plug the holes that can be used for these devices and have them run pampant all over the grid they will continue to spring up even if LL removes RZ entirely from the grid and hardware bans Zfire and his croonies. I know that, you know that and heck even LL knows that.

I would love for them to plug the damn holes and force remove all these devices from the grid. Hardware ban their creators and issue stern warnings to those that has been using it. Then use the RL law to get those DBs detroyed.