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Old 01-18-2011, 12:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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RL Proportion in SL - for the lulz

It was a quiet laggy day, so I decided to conduct an experiment. I wanted to see how it would be if I were to take my own RL proportions and height, and match an avatar in SL to them, and then take my avatar out and about to see how he sizes up.

So I started with my RL proportions - I took my photo - and not wanting to import a photo of myself in my undies to SL - I made a silhouette.



Now, be nice, this is my RL sihouette!

Then I used the Student Male avatar as a starter (the Zuck). And I shrunk him considerably so that he would equal the height of a prim that matches my RL height - which is 5'8" (inch shorter than US average).

I pasted my silhouette on a prim, and wore the semitransparent prim on my spine, and using a posing stand, adjusted all the parts of the body to be the same size as my RL parts.

The sad thing for me was that if I sized my legs to be like the thickness of my RL legs, I was only given the option of having no muscularity - they started to approach emaciation features - with knobby knees and sunken calves. Similarly, my "muscularity" slider had to go waaaaaaay down. Ouch! for a guy that has worked out for 20 years that really hurts. SL, you hate my body!

Then I went out. It was a laggy day, and the people were gray - but you can still see how tall I am. Here I am at Ahern, next to a female starter avatar.



People completely ignored me there. I had to derender a guy with a dong that was as large as I was.

And this is me at Insilico close to another female avatar and roleplayer. This is where I RP.



And then I went to the gay beach.



Boy did I feel tiny there. This is when people started suggesting that I should unhobbit myself. The nerve! I thought I was cute. Besides, it's kind of a convenient height in some ways

It might not be so bad if everybody was teeny tiny - oops sorry - accurate height like me. I would look normal, just like RL.

Hey! Don't think like that, I do look normal in RL!

Anyway, I decided this would all go better if I chose as my starting model someone who is actually hot (it pains me to say that). Someone with bettter than normal proportions. So I chose this guy by random off the internet who's kinda cute.



Then I posted his pic on a prim and again - did the adjustments to my avatar to make it the same size as this guy - who is named Hugh of all things. Hugh is 6'-2" about (as far as I can sort reality from press release) and so I made the figure that tall by comparing to a prim height.



So then I had an avatar that is Hugh's exact height, and relative proportions (although truthfully it was not possible to make the head big and long enough. That Hugh has quite a noggin.)

Here is Huey when I took him out to visit Ahern and other chat spots.





Well, I guess he turns out to be no big stud either.

Here is a photo showing comparative heights of the SL Student Male, the shape based on Hugh, and the shape based on me.

And yes, it is true, if I stood next to Hugh I would be that little. I don't think I'd mind however, cause I'd be standing next to Hugh.



And so ends my experiment. I will stick with my big 7'-2" behemoth of an avatar that is dwarfed by guys all over the grid.

I'm sure you will come to your own conclusions. I hope you enjoyed my experiment. Try it on your own, and post your process and results.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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That's really interesting. Thanks for doing all that and posting it.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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People debating from the position that only real life size/proportion is acceptable need to watch this program:

How Art Made the World . Episodes . More Human than Human | PBS

excerpts:



Please educate yourself before trying to force a clearly uneducated opinion on the world.

Have a nice day.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have to say that I did my shape over the first week I was in SL, alongside my RL wife. We had to ignore the real size of our avatars and base height on the "feel" in a crowd...at 5'7", I am a little shorter than average, but I think that standing in a group in SL, I fall into the same range of people taller and shorter than I am. And when standing next to my wife, our relative sizes look right.

Maybe instead of trying to make people resize their avatars, we need to devalue the Linden Meter, which is probably trading at 1.25 RL Meters. Then we will all match our stated heights.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It depends on where you go.

Scaled avatars are not the norm by any stretch, but in many places they are started to pop up here and there.

Less desirable types will tend to ignore you when you're on a scaled AV, but the better crowd won't care - whether they themselves are giants or scaled.
- So it can have that benefit.

If you're hanging out in infohubs and hunky gay beaches... and you're not on an AV designed to 'ham it up' of course you're going to get ignored.
- And frankly, at least in the infohub; is that a bad thing? At the beach I dunno - it depends on why you're there. If you were there to get macked on, then yeah you'd probably want an AV that would appeal to a gay guy's sex fantasy. Which is not exactly going to be Joe Average anymore than being Jane average is going to get a straight guy's attention when she's next to Ms. Anti-Gravity Super Boobs.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It depends on where you go.

Scaled avatars are not the norm by any stretch, but in many places they are started to pop up here and there.

Less desirable types will tend to ignore you when you're on a scaled AV, but the better crowd won't care - whether they themselves are giants or scaled.
- So it can have that benefit.

If you're hanging out in infohubs and hunky gay beaches... and you're not on an AV designed to 'ham it up' of course you're going to get ignored.
- And frankly, at least in the infohub; is that a bad thing? At the beach I dunno - it depends on why you're there. If you were there to get macked on, then yeah you'd probably want an AV that would appeal to a gay guy's sex fantasy. Which is not exactly going to be Joe Average anymore than being Jane average is going to get a straight guy's attention when she's next to Ms. Anti-Gravity Super Boobs.
At infohubs. Yes, was really just an aside that I was ignored - I wasn't talking or trying to draw attention in any way. I'm sure if I was scintillating it wouldn't have mattered what height I was. There were some tiny folks there - a few women my height, although not generally very realistic looking at my height - mostly very stylized AVs. Wasn't meant to say, you will be ignored if you are short.

In some ways it was better that I was ignored - I really ended the day happy that I'd not been sim-banned or accused of trying to look like a child.

Here's an irony - I have a fairy avatar that I wear sometimes - and it is very short - He is minimum height on the male slider, and then proportioned appropriately. Sometimes it's not so noticeable how little he is because he is proportionate and muscular, but then when I stand next to anyone it is super noticeable. I have worn it sometimes for mentoring and things because it is less threatening to some newcomers than my tall mohawked self, that some n00bs have told me looks mean. I guess I think differently of that AV cause he's not supposed to be a regular human, but is supposed to be small. I also RP a scientist character who is quite small. But he is supposed to be a short "normal person" amongst the more heroic people in the story.

So yes, I agree - different AV heights can have different purposes - whether human or otherwise.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Please educate yourself before trying to force a clearly uneducated opinion on the world.

Have a nice day.
Pshaw. Sharing an opinion is not 'forcing'... chill out, Ann.

I've done the same experiment. Being nearly 6'2" in RL and something of an optical illusion... (people never really seem to realize how tall I am because my proportions, posture and social distance tend to hiding it).

And yes, I was usually the shortest person anywhere I went in SL even with a 6'2" avatar.

Honestly, I kind of like being in the company of tall people, and adjusted my SL proportions so that I looked less 'hobbit' or 'kid' like at that height and pretty much stick to it.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hulk Manchunk there can't reach his wang to jerk off. You really want to consider him the better of the two in that image? =^-^=

And, really? Ahern? Moose Beach? Do you seriously want to level with that crowd? (O.o)

As for my own experience... =^-^=

Here's myself among a litter of maid at Doll Works. (^_^)


Here's my friends and I, shoe shopping. (^_^)


Here's me dancing after a performance of The Wall by CARP. (^_^)


Here's me partying with a tall friend at a futanari joint. (^_^)


Here's me hanging out with my best friend. (^_^)


Here's me standing next to Eloh Elliot... Maker of the PSD files I mod to make my own skins. (^_^)


What is it with Doll Works and maids? (O.o)


Here's me and Jumpeh razz'n Jack over display names. (^_^)


Oh~! A non-maid Doll Works shot! =^-^=


.... And looking back in my collection shows me I've been in that shape for forever by now. I'm all DANG!! Some of these are old pictures. (O.o)
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I find it really annoying that the prevailing world setup is so giant and disproportionate.

Sure, I get that fantasy characters (like say, anime characters) may have radically different proportions.

But I don't like being forced to be a disproportionate character because it takes just stupid amounts of user education and social baloney (why are you small?) to be normal.

The disproportionate scale has ruined all sorts of things, from realistic depiction of architecture (totally unusable) to literally shrinking the landscape. Being 25% too big means that your land parcel is that much smaller... doh!

Personally I think it's too late and we are all stuck with it. Which really sucks.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
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FYI, for those that think avatars should reflect a person's rl self, go to twinity (your avatar twin place). or 3dchat.com (requires rl identity and gender verification). Those worlds are set up that way for you.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I love this post.

A year or so I did something similar, making an avatar that looks as close to my real self as possible. Short (5'6"), a bit chubby in the middle. In the end it wasn't a bad likeness but I hated being waist-high to everyone else and I hated looking like my RL self, so I never used the avatar at all, except for the purposes of getting kitted out with skin, hair and clothes.

So finally I figured that since in RL I am about 4" shorter than the average guy, I just make my main avatar a few inches shorter than the SL average. This makes me 6'4": still shorter than the majority, but now proportionate to my RL experience, and much more comfortable for me.

Now what you want to do is make an avatar 7'2" who looks like Hugh Jackman, and you'll be the most popular guy on that beach...
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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FYI, for those that think avatars should reflect a person's rl self
I don't. And I don't think Zipper was trying force anything on anyone. It is just an interesting experiment, and, as Zipper said, everyone can reach their own conclusions. My conclusion is that SL shapes are even farther from RL than I thought, and that's ok (again, ignoring the scaling issue with tall avs).
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I've been doing this "experiment" since around 2009 . I gradually shrunk down Ingrid until she arrived at my RL height - 163 cm.

I don't even really notice that most people are towering above me anymore.


For this experiment, Ingrid went to an infohub. Can you find her?

I have also found that the only group of people that is consistently a similar size to me has been furries. I think as a rule furries both pay more attention to their avatar being the right size (Imagine if you were a mouse towering over a fox! The scandal!) and they usually get an average-sized shape when they buy their av. My own furry av is fun sized herself, being a fennec. Body Height Zero 4 lyfe awwww yeah.


Height comparison: Fennecself is size 0, Faunself is Size 17, and they have slightly different body types. Pretend this photo actually shows their bodytypes and not just their skirts.

Eh, to each his own. Really couldn't care less that most people don't conform to some arbitrary height standard. What fucks me off though is none of my alts can really wear prim shoes. Foot size 0 for shoes is GREAT for small avatars, but many prim shoes are much bigger. I can resize them, but then whatever goes around the ankle to make the prim-body transition look less weird goes into my ankle. It all goes into my ankle. Fucking prim shoes are the bane of my existence.

Anyway. I think the hairly legs are a bigger turnoff to most guys than my diminuitive size, though . That and the breast slider size of 32.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:48 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Anyway, I decided this would all go better if I chose as my starting model someone who is actually hot (it pains me to say that). Someone with bettter than normal proportions. So I chose this guy by random off the internet who's kinda cute.

...

Then I posted his pic on a prim and again - did the adjustments to my avatar to make it the same size as this guy - who is named Hugh of all things. Hugh is 6'-2" about (as far as I can sort reality from press release) and so I made the figure that tall by comparing to a prim height.
This is pretty much what I did last year, except it wasn't a random guy. I found some side and front pics from a David Beckham underwear campaign that I figured would be a good guide for front and side proportions. I didn't want my av to look like Beckham at all (didn't even want him to be the same race), but just figured it was a good physique to aim for. My prim height tends to max out at 6ft 4in (depending on shoes and hair), and I consider that a good compromise between realistic height avs and SL's Amazonian Discodancing world. I still feel extremely undersized when on my travels though (particularly when at clubs and big name clothing stores, and I even occasionally come across things like belts which I can't shrink down far enough. Amazing.

I haven't taken many pics recently, and don't have any which are a good indicator of proportions, but ho hum, this is the end result:

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Old 01-18-2011, 02:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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So finally I figured that since in RL I am about 4" shorter than the average guy, I just make my main avatar a few inches shorter than the SL average. This makes me 6'4": still shorter than the majority, but now proportionate to my RL experience, and much more comfortable for me.


I've given up trying to use a RL accurate height for my avatar or for the shapes I sell. Instead, I settled on a compromise of around 6' (agent height) for myself, and I offer two height versions of my shapes, usually in the range of 5'10" and 6'2" so people can choose. This offers me the most social versatility while still avoiding the extremely high end. Fortunately, my own social circles tends strongly toward a more humanly realistic avatar height which means I don't look like a midget dancing with the women at the Duchess.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:51 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I don't know about you but I find the wrists and hands on male avatars to be a complete pain. It is really hard to have realistic sized hands and wrists unless you have a superskinny avatar. I wish my wrists could be much thinner than they are but it seems impossible.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Even just by looking at your silhouette vs the avatar picture below, the avatar proportions seem off. Pose, posture, camera angle and overlaying clothing on the base model can all play a significant factor in judging proportions. Proper proportional measurement and a good eye go a long way towards successful replication.

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Try it on your own, and post your process and results.
I did!: Creating a well proportioned shape.

My Second Life shape is based off of my first life one, I measured and eyed myself very well in front of a full sized mirror while standing up straight in various poses, taking note of different body parts and their relative position to each other. I usually had on underwear or less for this process.

Then, using self made tools (available in the linked thread), I checked those proportional measurements and made the necessary adjustments to get things as close as I could. Even if a measurement looks right using one's eyes, it can still be off when one actually measures and compares it with the source one is attempting to replicate.

I have many years of familiarity with the human form, my own body, formal educations in art (life drawing classes, for example, as both student and model) and human anatomy (which is actually less useful than the former). So I'm pretty sure my eye for this sort of thing is at least half decent .

While my Second Life shape cannot ever be absolutely perfect, it is as close of an approximation as I can get given my knowledge, tools used and limitations of the Second Life avatar mesh.

While definitely shorter than the norm, I usually receive quite a bit of attention when I'm out and about.

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Maybe instead of trying to make people resize their avatars, we need to devalue the Linden Meter, which is probably trading at 1.25 RL Meters. Then we will all match our stated heights.
This makes absolutely no sense, the Linden meter works very well as is if used properly. If shapes (and objects, for that matter) are done correctly, with a properly measured source, they will fine. Fact.

The shape sliders actually favor the realistic average height range for well proportioned shapes. This range also offers the most diversity in overall body shapes (realistic or not) since you do not have nearly as many limitations as an extremely small or extremely tall avatar would have.

Consistent scale is one of, if not the single most important factors for creating a professional looking, immersive world.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:52 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Foot size 0 for shoes is GREAT for small avatars, but many prim shoes are much bigger. I can resize them, but then whatever goes around the ankle to make the prim-body transition look less weird goes into my ankle. It all goes into my ankle. Fucking prim shoes are the bane of my existence.
For some reason I keep imagining my poor av limping to the virtual podiatrist after two years of prim shoes so I generally don't use them.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think it's awesum that you went to the effort to do this... it's a really interesting study. Might be an interesting followup to see if reaction was the same if you didn't wear the noob avi but maintained the shapes.

Personally, I'm not hung up on RL heights because the scale is messed up all over SL (chairs, doorways, etc), and I doubt it can be fixed, and a few (relatively) people trying to do something about it won't do any more than it does in the real world when a few people try to change something and the rest of the world doesn't care. I just wish, as I'm sure many have said before, the shape sliders were totally redone. I'm sure people would come closer to RL heights if the slider went from 3ft to 7ft (erm, .9144m to 2.13m) instead of 0-100.

I personally don't really care if everyone is giant, the biggest argument for me and RL heights is that it makes so much more room on a sim - this makes total sense, as it's potentially a money saver.

Oh, and I am heterosexual, but even I can admit Hugh Jackman is hot. Total man crush.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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...

Consistent scale is one of, if not the single most important factors for creating a professional looking, immersive world.
If that is your goal. Like I mentioned there are other worlds for realism. SL is an art place. Which is why I tried to point people to a documentary that explores the why behind our exaggerated shapes in art.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:03 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Which is not exactly going to be Joe Average anymore than being Jane average is going to get a straight guy's attention when she's next to Ms. Anti-Gravity Super Boobs.
Dunno, I kinda prefer Jane Average, although at least part of that may be specifically because "average-looking" avatars are rarer in SL, but also partly because an "average-looking" avatar might be more self-confident than Ms Anti-Gravity Super Boobs, who likely has more issues than Newsweek.

My ex based her av on her RL height, which was 5'10". It was funny because in SL she looked a good bit shorter than me (I'll admit, my av is I think 7'6"), even though she was only a few inches shorter than me in RL...unless she was wearing her favorite heels that put her at exactly my height, one of the few times I've looked a woman straight in the eyes.

Then again, she had more issues than an entire newstand, so maybe my initial point doesn't hold up.

I don't have a problem with the fact that avatars have to be in the 7' range to look "normal" since the LL meter is just a unit of measurement. The one problem is just that it detracts from "unreal" avatars like monsters, demons, etc who max out the height sliders for good reasons. Those usually have to be full prim (and often deformed) to get the proper effect as a result.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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There are also strong psychological factors associated wanting to be 'tall'.... though perhaps not as fetishistic as having massively endowed sexual traits. It's the whole 'some' is great, 'more' must be better problem.

The silver lining, (if it can be counted as one), is that with a scale 25% larger than 'normal' it works favorably with prim quotas. If we were smaller and building at half scale on smaller parcels, we'd have fewer prims available to use.
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