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Old 01-10-2011, 08:53 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Libelling bastard.
You didn't listen to him, or you paid him, or both?
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:13 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rock Chick View Post
Look I wasn't getting into criticizing how parents teach their children, all I meant was my own feeling is in RL when it comes to kids and bulling like the example given ignoring it just doesn't often work, as a kid I was a target of bullies and I was lame and didn't stand up for myself, then again they were also usually more powerful than me or there was more than 1, anyway not doing anything didn't stop them but if I'd fought back I doubt they'd have seen me as such a push over.
Sorry, I didnt mean to imply you were criticising, or wrong! I was just giving my 2c based on how I addressed the issue of attention-seekers. Each to their own.
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:47 AM   #103 (permalink)
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The whole web has it's equivalent to Griefers, however the ones in SL are way more visual.
SL is also filled with some evil brainless teens and odd organizations that like to cause fear or something, when In reality it's just some annoyance you remove from your land in a few seconds.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:49 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chalice Yao View Post
The potential for powertripping and abuse is just too high if your job isn't on the line due to it. Instead of any voluntary/resident group, people should be rooting for LL to enlarge their GTeam again.
There's that "potential for abuse" again. The potential for abuse exists in every endeavor. It is not a reason to prohibit something from happening. As for the GTeam, I wish they would come back again, and I agree that LL needs to hire more Lindens. Maybe the new Grand Poobah will take care of that. In the meantime, they laid off all the great GTeam responders and hired minimum wage contractors to deal with griefing. The few that we've met have been somewhat lacking in expertise, to put it mildly. If LL is really interested in saving money, they would ditch the contractors and use volunteer residents.

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About every griefer who floods sandboxes and welcome areas with noise, cubes and images couldn't care less about ARs. Actually they potentially root for them as it gives them the reactions they want.
The reactions they want is for people to get angry and run around trying to avoid their objects. As I guy I know put it once, "their tears are so delicious." The only people who get angry at griefers any more are newbies. People who write ARs usually don't even speak to the griefers, so there are no lulz to be had there.
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
It's amazing how you guys profess to "fight griefing" yet you don't understand at all why people grief, nor do you understand that the JLU only makes it worse.
We don't understand why people grief? Here's something I wrote for a blog:
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WHY DO GRIEFERS GRIEF?

The Exploration of Griefer Play document lists several categories of "griefer motivations' that may explain many of the reasons that griefers engage in griefing.

Category – Game influenced
Motivations – Anonymity, Boredom, Greed, Protest, Testing, Game premise

Category – Player influenced
Motivations – Spite, Victim vulnerability, Revenge

Category – Griefer influenced
Motivations – Ritualization and group identity, Reputation

Category – Self
Motivations – Bad mood, Wanting to feel powerful, Attention, Enjoyment, Role-playing

Many of these motivations have been seen in Second Life. One griefer told me that Linden Lab had permanently banned his friend, which was the motivation (Revenge) for his griefing. Another griefer came back time after time, attacked once or twice, then quit for the evening. He said that he wanted to develop the most efficient way to crash a sim in the smallest amount of time using simple objects (Testing). Members of the PN said their participation in raids built esteem within the PN organization and elevated the PN’s standing within the Internet community (Reputation).
Peacekeeper groups don't make griefing worse. We stop griefing, at least for the moment. We don't give griefers any attention or recognition at all. They're not coming back because of us. They're coming back because of one or more of the motivations listed above.
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Karuna View Post
Anytime the JLU comes up, it's almost universally with negative connotations, and I'd kind of like to know why. I find it hard to believe that they gained such a negative rep simply for coordinated AR'ing of jerks, when ANN and GridWatch do basically the same thing, minus the angst.
The idea that JLU is universally hated is simply not true. If any group were hated by everyone on the grid because of continuing bad actions, the group members would be banned and the group would be removed.
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
A lot of it is centered around their "Brainiac Wiki", which only JLU members have access to, and stores information about residents, not just griefers, but also a number of people who simply criticized the JLU.
Ah yes, the wiki, that evil badnasty wiki, in which a handful of residents are listed by their real life names, and that information is used for...nothing. Ever. The only reason it's in there is in case a report ever needed to be made to the authorities in real life. As far as I know, such a report has never been made, so that information is only useful theoretically. Is it ever used for stalking? Nope. That's against the law.
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
The Wiki was leaked, which is the only reason you can look through it now (though that's not the entirety of it), and when it was reported on by SL news blogs, the JLU tried to shut down investigations by abusing DMCAs claiming copyright to the information, since this information was mostly chat logs (some they had obtained through spying), and people's personal information, claiming copyright to it was an absurd claim, and it was clear they were trying to shut down information by exploiting DMCA laws to bully. The Herald counter-filed, and the JLU dropped the claim entirely, proving it was a completely trumped up DMCA claim.
The Herald published not small excerpts, but entire sections of the wiki. Much of the information was not chat logs but original content written by JLU members. Other websites just dumped everything they had from the wiki without caring who wrote it. DMCA takedown requests were written, pointing out the original work and that the folks who posted it weren't the owners. In most cases, including the Herald, the information was removed. That's how the DMCA works. After what seemed like a long time, the Herald filed a DMCA response, and the wiki information was put back on their pages. That is also how the DMCA works. At that point, the next step was taking the charges to court, which gets expensive. Dropping the claim was not an admission that it was "trumped up," just an admission that it would cost too much to pursue further.
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
They've been trying to gather power any way they can (through control of resident ban systems, recruiting members across groups, and finding sympathetic Lindens), and have abused it to try and get critics of their group suspended or banned. They found that they can use multiple groups and have multiple people file abuse reports across a certain amount of time to make it look like unrelated multiple abuse reports, which gets the Lindens to react without looking too hard into what it is they're investigating.
JLU members played a big part in the old Banlink system that worked in private sims to ban one griefer from multiple locations. It worked well until it was hacked into. JLU then created an entirely new system called Phantom Zone which works in essentially the same way but with much more versatility. As for writing multiple Abuse Reports, check the Second Life wiki for the official "How to write an Abuse Report" page. LL says that if multiple residents are affected by an attack, they want to see multiple ARs. More ARs does raise the importance of the event, but the Lindens look at it just as hard as they would an event with a single AR.
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
Furnation had a similar problem with the JLU, where they flooded the sims trying to police them and got to the point that they mass-ARed one of the Furnation sim admin. After the JLU was banned from Furnation, they showed up on secret alts in order to continue policing the sim.
The Furnation claim is just silly. JLU hasn't been in Furnation in a long time. All these "JLU sightings" are most likely random superhero folks who happened by and got caught in the web of paranoia.
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Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
JLU has too little power and only does more to influence most griefers in some ways. Most of the time I would have gotten bored and logged off if I didn't have some men in spandex to play with. I remember dropping party hard cubes over Green Lantern (sorry) back in the day and laughing. It took four hours to get banned. The JLU doesn't really do much, and without return powers or whatever it will stay that way. I do not see much harm in giving some residents (maybe not the jlu) return powers over public linden owned sandboxes. I would love return powers for my account I promise to not abuse them
Nebula! Buddy! Haven't talked to you in forever, how are things? Nebula was the "Testing" griefer I described above. I never get angry when you or anyone drops stuff on me. Life is too short for that. As for the upcoming powers, I think you should have them, and also Lestat Demain, Twisted Laws, Phantom Ninetails, and all the other dedicated sandbox rats who clean up the sandboxes day after day on their own without wearing spandex. Oh, and me too.
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Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye View Post
The JLU, by contrast, present a far greater threat. Compiling RL information, especially in a database that is distributed amongst their entire group, is simply unacceptable and presents an actual real-world danger.
It's not compiling the information that's a problem, it's what it's used for that can be problematic. The day the JLU shows up at your door in RL is the day that hell freezes over. Also, check your definition of "danger."
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Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye View Post
Honestly, if I'd found myself in that JLU database, I might have given serious consideration to leaving SL entirely.
Why would you be in the database? Are you a griefer? :lol:
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Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye View Post
I understand completely why LL does not consider it essential to have someone on-call 24/7 to deal with these sorts of things, but the only acceptable method for dealing with griefing like this on public LL land is to ask LL to do more about it.
I disagree. Right now we have people calling 911 and no one is answering the phone. Residents aren't going to continue to be griefed all the time without shooting back at the griefers. We don't need anarchy; we need more enforcement. If LL won't or can't do it, then they need to designate someone who can.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:51 AM   #105 (permalink)
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W-haaaat
WALL O FUCKIN TEXT >:|
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:54 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Why would you be in the database? Are you a griefer? :lol:
Since we all know that database listed more than just "griefers", you may want to rethink your question.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:08 PM   #107 (permalink)
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What does "Hazardous Liaison" mean? (^_^)

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Old 01-12-2011, 12:42 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern Excelsior View Post
We don't understand why people grief? Here's something I wrote for a blog:

Peacekeeper groups don't make griefing worse. We stop griefing, at least for the moment. We don't give griefers any attention or recognition at all. They're not coming back because of us. They're coming back because of one or more of the motivations listed above.
Uh yeah, just cause you wrote something on a blog once, doesn't mean you're an expert. Why do you think they infiltrate the groups, attack any location of yours you can find, etc? I bet you think it's because they fear you or some ego-driven nonsense; sorry no, it's because they think you're a hilarious griefer target good for all kinds of drama.

Maybe other peacekeeping groups don't make things worse, since most of them don't get lost in having an egotistical superhero identity, and don't jump into the sim with that "Look at me! Please god look at me!" attitude.

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Originally Posted by GreenLantern Excelsior View Post
Ah yes, the wiki, that evil badnasty wiki, in which a handful of residents are listed by their real life names, and that information is used for...nothing. Ever. The only reason it's in there is in case a report ever needed to be made to the authorities in real life. As far as I know, such a report has never been made, so that information is only useful theoretically. Is it ever used for stalking? Nope. That's against the law.
Okay, first off, if it's used for nothing, why are you collecting it? Especially since people obviously do not want you collecting this information, why doesn't the JLU simply remove it if they never intend to use it, if only for PR purposes? And how do you know it could never be used for stalking? Can you vouch for the moral fortitude of every single member invited to the JLU (before you answer that, let me remind you that the JLU's "screening process" has already been infiltrated at least once and another member "went rogue", leading to two different leaks of this information).

Second, collecting the information in case you need to report to authorities? You do realize that the cops are going to want to do their own investigations, not accept evidence based on conjecture by a bunch of make belief superheroes.

Would you mind if I posted all the information I could find about you?

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Originally Posted by GreenLantern Excelsior View Post
The Herald published not small excerpts, but entire sections of the wiki. Much of the information was not chat logs but original content written by JLU members. Other websites just dumped everything they had from the wiki without caring who wrote it. DMCA takedown requests were written, pointing out the original work and that the folks who posted it weren't the owners. In most cases, including the Herald, the information was removed. That's how the DMCA works. After what seemed like a long time, the Herald filed a DMCA response, and the wiki information was put back on their pages. That is also how the DMCA works. At that point, the next step was taking the charges to court, which gets expensive. Dropping the claim was not an admission that it was "trumped up," just an admission that it would cost too much to pursue further.
In the case of the Herald, one of the items specifically removed was a chat log, that no JLU members were a part of, Kalel claimed copyright to this. You guys aren't the owners, nor was the Herald but you had no more right to DMCA any of it than anyone else.

The DMCA works by requiring the content host to take down the content when they receive the DMCA, without any actual investigation into whether the person filing the DMCA actually owns the content. This is a part of the American DMCA laws only and has been used numerous times to bully people (even in SL there's an example of it just recently with Amaretto and Ozimals). Often times they're used to get someone to remove content, and if they counterfile they drop the claim, in other countries you'd get penalized for a false claim or get forced into pursuing it. If you didn't intend to pursue it fully, then don't file the DMCA.

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Originally Posted by GreenLantern Excelsior View Post
JLU members played a big part in the old Banlink system that worked in private sims to ban one griefer from multiple locations. It worked well until it was hacked into. JLU then created an entirely new system called Phantom Zone which works in essentially the same way but with much more versatility. As for writing multiple Abuse Reports, check the Second Life wiki for the official "How to write an Abuse Report" page. LL says that if multiple residents are affected by an attack, they want to see multiple ARs. More ARs does raise the importance of the event, but the Lindens look at it just as hard as they would an event with a single AR.
When they say every person effected by it should AR it, they mean every person who was effected by it, not every person in your group you tell about it and TP in over a period of hours, even after it's long over.

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The Furnation claim is just silly. JLU hasn't been in Furnation in a long time. All these "JLU sightings" are most likely random superhero folks who happened by and got caught in the web of paranoia.
I didn't say it was recent, I am saying that's what happened though.

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Originally Posted by GreenLantern Excelsior View Post
Why would you be in the database? Are you a griefer? :lol:
Are you saying you only collect information on griefers? I notice you have an entry on one of the SLU members, Joshua Nightshade, who apparently had the lapse in judgement of helping you guys at one point. Apparently, in respect, you decided that it was necessary to scrounge up his real life name and city of residence for his entry. He doesn't exactly hide this information, but why exactly are you collecting it at all? In case you need to "give that information to authorities"?
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:33 PM   #109 (permalink)
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In one of their meeting for November they were discussing my RL information and going to give it to RL authorities. Later after I quit no one besides GL thought it was true. I may not care for many of the JLU or think some of them do indeed abuse power. However, GL has proven to me personally to be trust worthy and the wiki leak of their little secret database has backed up that he indeed has defended me and other greifers on occasion in their meetings. Though it is freaking spooky when you search your name and your in like 20 meetings. I feel kinda bad for Tizzers in that respect.

Anyway in responce to GL's comment about giving some sandbox residents return powers, would be great but there is still that tempting potentail for abuse that would be very bad. The only people who need grid god powers are the lindens. As much as I would love to be able to clean up spam without the use of having to write an AR and wait for lindens to show up in my fave sand box in game (it is constantly griefed so I don't even bother writing an AR I just log off play killing floor then come back at this point. Anyway the odd twisted point I am trying to make here is that a few bad apples in JLU did spoil the bunch and if they had managed to really keep to the mission they set out for then I really wouldn't have much of an issue with them.

Being one of those evil griffer people who has a bunch of entries about them and not carign still doesn't make it ok, one of my good friends was branded a maker of a pn avatar package, and really he didn't even make it or do anything with it they jsut took his freebies and made them ugly. So after the wiki was leaked he got his account supsended for awhile and lost signifigant rl income and money he was using for food. After I quit griefing they didn't cosey up to me like the did Fred(rob/n3x15) instead they ar partied my account Stipe Stipe and for doing nothing (wasn't even ban evading after my public apology to linden labs I have had free access to the grid) so its why I am too scared to share my current account name with anyone on sl or any where and am limited to what I do in sl, becuase if my account goes down for acouple weeks I loose out on al the money I get from sl which I use for food and to help pay bills. Sl is pretty much my third job which makes me spare income, I allready work 12 hour days with my two jobs as is day in day out and go to school full time to where I barley sleep during the school year. So the last thing I need is anyone griefer/jlu/flamer calling my products stupid, to try and stop my progress because they find it morally right. That is my rl bread and butter they were fucking with and its why I don't feel anyone who took part in the ar party deserves my respect or time of day.

My two cents and how things like the JLU can personally effect your life. I know if I didn't do anything wrong in the first place I wouldn't be writing this, but linden labs gave me a second chance, shouldn't be up to the JLU. And GL nothing personal to you at all or some of the JLU who have the good attitude and faith that you do. But like I said a few bad apples....
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:36 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:46 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Artemis Fate View Post
Uh yeah, just cause you wrote something on a blog once, doesn't mean you're an expert. Why do you think they infiltrate the groups, attack any location of yours you can find, etc? I bet you think it's because they fear you or some ego-driven nonsense; sorry no, it's because they think you're a hilarious griefer target good for all kinds of drama.
Whence cometh all this stuff about ego? You sure seem to be an expert on the mental state of others.

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Maybe other peacekeeping groups don't make things worse, since most of them don't get lost in having an egotistical superhero identity, and don't jump into the sim with that "Look at me! Please god look at me!" attitude.
And there it is again. You're still wrong about the griefers. I'll say it again: I practically live in the sandboxes. I hang out there more than any other place in Second Life. 99.9% of griefer attacks are hit and run. That's not a number I just pulled out of my ass, that's an absolute fact. Just because a JLU or a GW or an ANN member is there doesn't make them stay around. The attacks are sophisticated enough (the last few going through various phases, so once you think you have it cleaned up and contained, they start doing other stuff) that hanging around is meaningless. It's much easier to trash a sim than to untrash it. Rez object, done, move on to the next target.

I don't particularly like the JLU's information gathering techniques either (there's real life laws about collecting personally identifying information, guys), but it seems that you're kind of reaching. Bear in mind that I have no affiliation with them.

Quote:
In the case of the Herald, one of the items specifically removed was a chat log, that no JLU members were a part of, Kalel claimed copyright to this. You guys aren't the owners, nor was the Herald but you had no more right to DMCA any of it than anyone else.
And that's another thing I don't like about the JLU. Chat logs are not copyrighted - that's a BS claim, and Kalel could very well have been sued for filing a knowingly false DMCA request. At the very least, he should take up legal counsel before doing something like that again. People who abuse a broken law piss me right the fuck off.

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When they say every person effected by it should AR it, they mean every person who was effected by it, not every person in your group you tell about it and TP in over a period of hours, even after it's long over.
For one, new resi's don't know how to file AR's. Why should you have to be affected by abuse directly in order to report it? Do you only report crime that you see when it affects you? On top of that, it greatly expedites the cleanup process. That's basically what ANN and GW do. Someone says "XXX is doing YYY at ZZZ", someone comes by to check it out, grab a screenshot, and then the rest of the group file reports as appropriate.

This is conjecture, but it seems there's a hard limit in LL's system that after so many abuse reports for the same thing, action of some kind is automatically taken. Whether that be the reported objects being returned to user gridwide or a temp ban issued, I am not sure. I do know that coordinated abuse reporting is about the only weapon that can be used against griefers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLanter Excelsior
Ah yes, the wiki, that evil badnasty wiki, in which a handful of residents are listed by their real life names, and that information is used for...nothing. Ever. The only reason it's in there is in case a report ever needed to be made to the authorities in real life. As far as I know, such a report has never been made, so that information is only useful theoretically. Is it ever used for stalking? Nope. That's against the law.
According to laws, you're not allowed to collect personally identifying information on people without their consent. LL has such disclaimers and protections in place because residents have a business relationship with them. With the JLU? Notsomuch.

If I were you, I'd get that information removed pronto. You could be falling afoul of some very serious laws, by your own admission the information is never used, and your recruiting process has been penetrated by a rogue agent more that once (who could very well misuse it), and on top of all of that, it gives the group negative publicity. It seems the possible benefit you gain by having it there is greatly, greatly outweighed by the negatives.

If you insist on collecting that information, at least stick it in a text file on one member's machine where it won't get distributed or something. Linking RL info to avatars where it can be abused is just plain irresponsible.

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The Furnation claim is just silly. JLU hasn't been in Furnation in a long time. All these "JLU sightings" are most likely random superhero folks who happened by and got caught in the web of paranoia.
This was quite a while ago, but it's an absolute fact that the JLU was banned from Furnation for idiocy. The GLC is allowed, but only without the group tag up.

Quote:
Why would you be in the database? Are you a griefer? :lol:
That's a bad attitude to have. I know for a fact that griefing or no, I don't want my character's name anywhere near that wiki. Where's the "opt out" button?
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:02 PM   #112 (permalink)
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99.9% of griefer attacks are hit, run, return as someone else and watch.
Fixed.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:05 PM   #113 (permalink)
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LL should appoint people to do this kind of stuff. However LL hardly cares about anything.. its difficult to get LL to actually think something important enough to deal with it.. I speak with experience LL don't care.. They do nothing about anything.. It is really annoying because for the money they make with this game they SHOULD care..
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:09 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Masami Kuramoto View Post
Fixed.
Which has what effect on anything? If the "someone else" isn't actually doing any griefing, it's pointless.

I've never in my time in sandbox cleaning, finished dispersing an attack only to have someone come along and restart it. Surprising, but true.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:13 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Since when is collecting Rl info on anyone aceptable? It΄s simply shocking that anyone would ever refer to it so lightly.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:18 PM   #116 (permalink)
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I see griefing as a purely technical problem. The platform allows griefing because it is broken. For example, why isn't there a watchdog process in every sim that returns all physical objects when the total physics load exceeds a critical threshold?
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:21 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Masami Kuramoto View Post
I see griefing as a purely technical problem. The platform allows griefing because it is broken. For example, why isn't there a watchdog process in every sim that returns all physical objects when the total physics load exceeds a critical threshold?
Because it would allow people to return any physical objects they don't own from any sim. Limit it to physical objects that are not owned by the land owner/group and are not sat on (to protect vehicles) and it sounds like a good deal :3 Well. One that will probably never happen.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:25 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Masami Kuramoto View Post
I see griefing as a purely technical problem. The platform allows griefing because it is broken. For example, why isn't there a watchdog process in every sim that returns all physical objects when the total physics load exceeds a critical threshold?
Great idea, but then you've also got particle spam, sound spam, and script load. And then all you'd do is change their tactics to not make a sim completely unusable, only mostly.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:39 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Great idea, but then you've also got particle spam, sound spam, and script load. And then all you'd do is change their tactics to not make a sim completely unusable, only mostly.
Particle and sound spam never bothered me. They can be turned off in the viewer.

Script load is similar to physics load. It should be watched by the sim as well.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:43 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Masami Kuramoto View Post
Particle and sound spam never bothered me. They can be turned off in the viewer.
Newbies don't know that.

Also, add text spam - though that's a mute command away.

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Script load is similar to physics load. It should be watched by the sim as well.
Where would you draw the line between "heavy usage" and "likely abuse, pull the trigger" ?
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:57 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Well, as I said in another thread recently, I'm all for introducing features that make muting easier and more effective. Especially "peer-reviewed" muting where you can set a threshold for yourself. If a resident or his objects have been muted multiple times, they should automatically be de-rendered/ejected/etc. for anyone whose threshold is exceeded. This would burn throw-away alts very quickly, I guess.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:01 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Especially "peer-reviewed" muting where you can set a threshold for yourself.
And speaking of likely abuse..

A lot of these problems (both with griefing, and with the solutions) would be solved if LL would provide a reliable way to tie alt accounts to the same person. Fuck up on one, the others are gone too.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:04 PM   #123 (permalink)
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And speaking of likely abuse..
I asked for an example of how that feature could possibly be abused, and no one came up with anything. I consider it safe until proven otherwise.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:10 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I asked for an example of how that feature could possibly be abused, and no one came up with anything. I consider it safe until proven otherwise.
Banlink comes to mind. Having a trust system is utterly irrelevant when that trust can be overridden by an army of alts. Want to grief the hell out of someone? Mass mute them - the system handles the grief for you!
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:18 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Banlink comes to mind. Having a trust system is utterly irrelevant when that trust can be overridden by an army of alts. Want to grief the hell out of someone? Mass mute them - the system handles the grief for you!
I already explained why that wouldn't work.
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