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Old 09-05-2010, 12:49 PM   #976 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nika Talaj View Post
If you create a viewer that your users will use to connect to Opensim, and you want to use KDU, you need to BUY YOUR OWN KDU LICENSE!! You cannot steal a library that is licensed to LL for use in LL products and use it elsewhere. I don't need to read the text of KDU's commercial license to know that.
As I said, these are particular license issues any developer can and has to fix themselves. It still does not give LL any right to put any restrictions on what that viewer developer does.
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:50 PM   #977 (permalink)
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Thanks for that information Boy
Yes it's clear she has some Emerald past, but funnily enough that doesn't make her believable, for me (I know you weren't implying that it does). Quite the opposite actually, her Emerald past make makes me think she has an agenda, not just warning all the other TPVs about a real danger.

Her mission seems to be to recruit devs and supporters of all other TPVs to join with Emergence against LL, the common enemy we are told, who have surrounded the forest with bulldozers, LOL.
Innocent, you make me LOL lots. Not only have you been the only one in this exchange to actually make personal attacks, but they don't even make logical sense. My blog details precisely what my "Emerald past" is (gosh that makes me giggle even repeating it), and all I ask people to do is to ask questions and get answers, which I'm happy to see many doing here. This "Mindy Spiritor" has been a resident of Second Life for a year come Tuesday in fact, and if you're so interested in who I am, I can assure you it's easy enough to ask around. I do appreciate the paranoia, but that you think I've spent the last year concocting some master plan, creating the life I have in SL and what I've done (and not done) there just to serve as some front for my master "get LL" plan only to then write what would have to be the most genius blog ever to be written to achieve those ends, well....you've really bought the farm entirely LOL. Yeah, sorry, that whole surgeon bit can't even save you at this point *dies laughing.*

If you believed, as I do, that LL is laying the foundation for weakening all TPVs and that most are not "seeing" this issue or asking the right questions, it would be a crying shame not to take upon oneself to at least get people looking at it.

But again, I'm flattered that despite knowing me not at all, you so easily credit me with such genius, even if it's of the evil variety *wanders off laughing loudly, personally knowing how very preposterous that is.*

For those who have no idea what we're talking about and don't feel like scrolling back through pages upon pages: http://krisykabellic.blogspot.com/20...-spiritor.html
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:56 PM   #978 (permalink)
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As I said, these are particular license issues any developer can and has to fix themselves. It still does not give LL any right to put any restrictions on what that viewer developer does.
The GPL gives them that right. The GPL prohibits you from distributing a viewer linked with KDU (or any other library that isn't GPL+FOSS-compatible). LL, as the copyright owner, can waive that restriction, if they choose. Apparently they do not so choose.
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:59 PM   #979 (permalink)
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LL provides the SL source as GPL 2.0. GPL is governed by rights that do not allow additional restrictions to be put on developers. Hereby it does not matter if we talk about a 3rd party license like KDU. It's a general right any developer has, to contribute to development by adding or removing what she/he seems to be fit, in the context of particular licensing.

If LL now would indeed disallow linking to any library of any kind, it would automatically represent such restriction, and therbey violate GPL per se.
The viewer code license does not pertain to what viewers LL permits to access their grid. Yes, you can take LL's viewer code and augment it in any GPL-compliant way you please, and use it to connect to any other grid you want.

But there is nothing in GPL that states that LL has to grant the resulting product access to their grid. GPL has no bearing on that.

So, perhaps you're requesting clarification in LL's language? Like: "You are free to make use of any proprietary libraries you wish in creating your client, so long as you do so in a GPL-compliant way. Be aware, however, that any TPV that uses proprietary code that you have modified, e.g. emkdu, may not be allowed to access the SL grid."
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:00 PM   #980 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nika Talaj View Post
The viewer code license does not pertain to what viewers LL permits to access their grid. Yes, you can take LL's viewer code and augment it in any GPL-compliant way you please, and use it to connect to any other grid you want.

But there is nothing in GPL that states that LL has to grant the resulting product access to their grid. GPL has no bearing on that.

So, perhaps you're requesting clarification in LL's language? Like: "You are free to make use of any proprietary libraries you wish in creating your client, so long as you do so in a GPL-compliant way. Be aware, however, that any TPV that uses proprietary code that you have modified, e.g. emkdu, may not be allowed to access the SL grid."
Different things here, viewer development and access to the grid. Again, all has been said in the threads in March/April. Search is your friend
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:05 PM   #981 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
The GPL gives them that right. The GPL prohibits you from distributing a viewer linked with KDU (or any other library that isn't GPL+FOSS-compatible). LL, as the copyright owner, can waive that restriction, if they choose. Apparently they do not so choose.
No 3rd party viewer, other than Emerald (oh well, and Kirsten's ) distributed that library. Leaving a potential linkage, that is even a contrary subject with FSF. It can use llkdu, but it works without. So again this is nothing more than a legal licensing option a developer has to take up. It's nothing to decide for LL.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:10 PM   #982 (permalink)
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LL worded it this way because they didn't know what they are allowed to do yet.

During the past week, LL (Merov in particular) has been working on getting an updated llkdu whipped into shape for Snowstorm. The new llkdu uses Kadaku 6.4. Part of that work was to get a license upgrade from Kadaku secured.

As of Friday, LL was still awaiting the completion of the license upgrade. Part of this process is to get clarification from Kadaku on what they want to allow. LL's future policy on llkdu will depend on what Kadaku has to say.
Hm. Interesting facts, if true. That said, it really doesn't explain why LL claims they "misinterpreted" their license thus forcing the change onto Phoenix code with respect to the llkdu that IS out there and being used by everyone else. Time will tell on all of this, of course.

Also, for purposes of general clarification with respect to the licensing issues. 1) The license that Frac had for emkdu is a different license than LL has for llkdu. As it's been explained to me (take it for what it's worth), although the emkdu license was for personal use, the terms were negotiated specifically for Emerald to use emkdu in the manner they did; 2) the emkdu licensing issues are really irrelevant now given the Emerald project is dead; 3) the llkdu license is a commercial license, which under normal circumstances does permit FREE distribution, which is the basis upon which LL has permitted TPVs to include the call in code so that users could utilize the file in the manner that they have to date.

Are most here so jaded at this point with respect to "evil" devs as to not deem LL's sudden change of licensing interpretation suspect? Let's try really hard to take Emerald off the table for just a moment, leaving only the serious user privacy and security concerns it raised ok? When one looks at LL's requirements as now applied to Phoenix, all of them make absolute sense with respect to user/grid security and trust in TPVs. All of them, except this removal of the call in code for llkdu. Now, if someone can demonstrate a rational relationship between that requirement and user security, please do. I've been begging people to do that for a week now and have yet to receive a logical and satisfactory answer. That is the whole reason for my blog and for the discussion here.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:12 PM   #983 (permalink)
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No 3rd party viewer, other than Emerald (oh well, and Kirsten's ) distributed that library.
They don't need to distribute the library. Just distributing binaries linked against it is a GPL violation. That's straight from the FSF, and they've gone after companies using the GNU MPL and GNU Readline libraries that way. That's why the BSD MPL library exists.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:15 PM   #984 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
They don't need to distribute the library. Just distributing binaries linked against it is a GPL violation. That's straight from the FSF, and they've gone after companies using the GNU MPL and GNU Readline libraries that way.
Yes Sir, we've been there . And you know what I'm trying to say. May there be the holy wrapper that has no function other than making lawyers happy ,

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LL, as the copyright owner, can waive that restriction, if they choose. Apparently they do not so choose.
As I look at the source code I used, and also the sources that Emerald used, there are given licensing terms that grant free usage of the published code under GPL. If LL now decides to amend such licensing, which is their right, it does not affect our status quo.

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Old 09-05-2010, 01:22 PM   #985 (permalink)
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Different things here, viewer development and access to the grid. Again, all has been said in the threads in March/April. Search is your friend
Well, I keep dinging at this because I respect you, but I didn't understand your position then, and I still don't.

The TPV policy is already quite explicit that it does not regulate what modifications you can make to the code, just whether they will permit the result to connect to their grid. Do you agree that they are within their rights to create such a policy, or not?

If you do agree, are you simply saying that you don't agree with their criteria to connect to their grid?

It's just that you keep mentioning GPL when you talk about them not allowing use of modified proprietary libraries when connecting to their grid. And truly I do not see the connection.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:23 PM   #986 (permalink)
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Hm. Interesting facts, if true.
They're true and verifiable, it's all documented in their Snowstorm daily scrum archives, posted to opensource-dev and on the SL wiki.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:25 PM   #987 (permalink)
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They don't need to distribute the library. Just distributing binaries linked against it is a GPL violation. That's straight from the FSF, and they've gone after companies using the GNU MPL and GNU Readline libraries that way. That's why the BSD MPL library exists.
Since, I'm still learning about all of this and have seen many reasonable minds and otherwise knowledgeable people vehemently disagree as to what's a GPL violation and what isn't in the respect, perhaps I can ask you a question. How do those violations you just mentioned relate to simply having a call in code that utilizes the library if present on the user's system from a legitimate distribution (the LLKDU contained in LL viewers)? In other words, no one is distributing the KDU but LL themselves.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:28 PM   #988 (permalink)
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They're true and verifiable, it's all documented in their Snowstorm daily scrum archives, posted to opensource-dev and on the SL wiki.
Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain the relationship between what they're doing with the new library that has not yet been determined vs. what can be done with the LLKDU that has been out there and utilized in this fashion all along. Unless, of course, the only purpose of your first post was to explain why LL responded in the manner it did and nothing else relative to this discussion.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:32 PM   #989 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nika Talaj View Post
Well, I keep dinging at this because I respect you, but I didn't understand your position then, and I still don't.

The TPV policy is already quite explicit that it does not regulate what modifications you can make to the code, just whether they will permit the result to connect to their grid. Do you agree that they are within their rights to create such a policy, or not?

If you do agree, are you simply saying that you don't agree with their criteria to connect to their grid?

It's just that you keep mentioning GPL when you talk about them not allowing use of modified proprietary libraries when connecting to their grid. And truly I do not see the connection.
Simple. In my opinion TPV is in direct violation of GPL, as it does in fact put restrictions on developers which GPL prohibits. I can not make a viewer that is GPL compliant and the same time follows TPV. That was the reason I stopped making Rainbow. I maybe stubborn, but I'm trying to stay clear of legal implications. And I don't have e-peen problems .

Regarding the question about connecting to their playground, certainly it's theirs and they have to control access. But then they should not call it Opensource and GPL, because it is incompatible with that.

Last edited by Boy Lane; 09-05-2010 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:32 PM   #990 (permalink)
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Dude. Emerlad is already dead. You need a new target.
Dudette, Emerald aint dead, it just smells funny
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:34 PM   #991 (permalink)
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:35 PM   #992 (permalink)
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:37 PM   #993 (permalink)
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Can that count as an indirect Godwin?
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:39 PM   #994 (permalink)
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Fair enough, but that still doesn't explain the relationship between what they're doing with the new library that has not yet been determined vs. what can be done with the LLKDU that has been out there and utilized in this fashion all along. Unless, of course, the only purpose of your first post was to explain why LL responded in the manner it did and nothing else relative to this discussion.
Why LL gave a noncommital response is exactly what I was responding to, and that's exactly what I quoted. LL's uncertainties about the license interpretation came about as a part of this same process, they are relevant because that, and not Emeraldgate alone, is what made this an issue.

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Originally Posted by Merov's notes August 24
LLKDU in viewer-development: Read install.py in details to understand why those are not installed as requested...: The problem comes from kdu-binaries not being asked by anyone... It's unclear though if we can really continue to provide that lib to download willy nilly. Need a license check here.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:40 PM   #995 (permalink)
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:58 PM   #996 (permalink)
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This thread has been indirectly Godwined and Bonoed.
All is lost
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:27 PM   #997 (permalink)
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As I said, these are particular license issues any developer can and has to fix themselves. It still does not give LL any right to put any restrictions on what that viewer developer does.
But LL has the right, quite apart from any licences, to restrict the viewer developer from accessing the grid using a particular viewer, and LL also has the right to restrict anyone to whom the developer gives a copy of the viewer from accessing the grid.

It may very well be that LL has no right to stop someone from making a viewer out of LL's code and sticking a copy of llkdu into it and logging onto InWorldz with it -- I don't know -- but that's irrelevant to issue of immediate concern to most of us, which is, will we be able to log into SL with TPVs that use llkdu.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:31 PM   #998 (permalink)
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I wonder what the issue is with emkdu and llkdu. I thought that the licence needed for jpg was the creation of said images not the decoding of (which is what the client does)
so why cannot someone write an open source jpg decoder for use with sl clients....
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:38 PM   #999 (permalink)
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Sunday, Bloody Sunday
I prefer the Cranberries. It sorta describes this thread too.

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Old 09-05-2010, 02:45 PM   #1000 (permalink)
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