Sugar

LOL!!!!!
I've been Banned!!!!!!!!
a few RZ sims has taken it upon themself to ban lil ol innocent...
I am a vocal protester to RZ but i think anyone that has seen my posts.. know i am not not confrontational.. maybe a lil sarcastic at times. but... i dont know... I like to think im a sweety...thats just trying to inform the general populous of SL..

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[18:51] PhantomZoneNode v0.5.14 BETA: Sorry, 'Bake me Brownies Bitch!!!!' is not a valid Phantom Zone command.

Don't make me dress up like a ponygirl to kick you!! Didn't you know Ponys kick really really hard.

Misty Harley

you need to go back, click the link that I posted to Argents Post that states very clearly that if they don't display the signs that Elysium created as a means for education....then shop elsewhere.

That is a witch hunt because there are too many creators in SL that have not a clue what RZ is let alone what these signs are all about. Which was to educate people and nothing more.

It's a shame Argent did that to her idea since that was not her intention for these signs.

She never intended, that I read anyway....to use these as a litmus test to find out who is safe to shop and who isn't based on who does or does not have RZ.

Eclectic Wingtips

The only use as a witch hunt ive seen has come from humps in all honesty. Everyone else has stated they dont want to mass boycott anything and sam who wrote the notecard has stated she thinks it should be edited and was merely a draft.

Humps has a serious issue with this topic and thus is bias and has only been able to see the negativity in this poster.

The fact is it is an easy and simple way to educate people. If OTHERS use it for a witch hunt that automatically makes it a bad thing? come onnnnn thats friggen ridiculous. Yes it could be abused, nearly anything can be, but its intent is to actually help and do something positive.

Mosty peopel are shocked and horrified when they find out about these systems and the fact they are on it, if we can prevent that its a good thing. If we can make these systems less effective thats a good thing, because they dont stop copybot they just increase privacy issues.,

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Eclectic Wingtips

Of FFS argent explained 3 or 4 times now what he meant.. he was talking about the ptoential for it to be seen that way... not that he thought it SHOULD be.

Elysium Hynes

I undertsand Humps is upset, i do, i still hope he reads my whole posts at some point and realizes i speak only for myself as for witch Hunts i don´t see any.

edited to add: Damn start calling me Ely already people, everyone else does inworld, everytime i see this Elysium mentioned i stop and think who the hell is that?

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I have a blog with stuffs in it Sium
You can also check my Flickr or my Pinterest for event covering.

Psyke Phaeton

We can get ourselves in a knot about what is the right path to take about this but we should remember that those with the power to resolve this have chosen to ignore it. When this happens then a mob is the only solution. Humps, I can see you are against mob mentality but when those in power ignore the people a mob is the only choice left. Hence people equating this to Egypt. Sure it is not Egypt but the same underlying situation has occurred, we have been abused, we have had enough, we have no legitimate path to achieve a solution, so we will choose a less savoury path.

While I am bitching, it took you guys almost 1 fucking year to get worked up!! At least it finally happened

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bronxelf

But in Samantha's original text, and even her revised text(that she handed me last night), it does *not* say anything about *the sign* being the metric by which one should make their choices. It is the use of RZ itself.

If Argent changed that on his own, I understand what you're saying- but Samantha's text refers to RZ itself, and not the sign.

Jahar Aabye

My main concern about putting up those signs is that they're kinda scary, and scared customers aren't as free-spending as happy customers. Plus I could imagine someone misreading it as a disclaimer that you are being monitored at the store, especially if the sign texture hasn't completely loaded yet.

I almost always run with media off, I was that way long before the issues of collecting IPs and alt-logging came up, simply because I wanted to avoid surprise media like strobing video or certain types of techno music, since those make my brain go

Also, it is not surprising that the Redzone HTTPRequest code was so easily hacked, and it is not surprising that people were able to use that information to screw with the system. I'd said before that most programmers don't pull this shit because there are moral and ethical rules, stuff that's not necessarily written down, you just know that it's the sort of thing that is Simply Not Done.

Hence, when this sort of thing occurs, it's not surprising that the person doing it has no fucking clue. He's sitting there thinking that he's soooo clever, because nobody else is doing this, so clearly he's got some mad skills. Now, if he'd stopped to think about why nobody else was doing this, it would be obvous. However, that would require things like basic reasoning and critical thinking, which are other mad skills that he lacks.

While I don't normally approve of hacking someone's database, I do think that if it is true that people were adding all kinds of false entries to the database, then this has the potential to make the entire system unusable. Once the signal-to-noise ratio falls past a certain point, there is no use for the system. There is no way to know if a given data point in the set is accurate or not.

Samantha Poindexter

Just to be clear, lest this somehow spiral into a new round of drama... the "revised text" just refers to tightening some of the wording in one paragraph. The meaning was unaltered. I applied those edits to my post here about a minute after I handed it to bronxelf inworld. There was never a finished version, from my standpoint.

At any rate, I would agree that not one of the actual proponents of these signs has come close to suggesting avoiding places that don't display such signs.

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Philip 3:16
For Rosedale so loved the grid, that he rezzed his only begotten Avatar, that whosoever believeth in him shall not crash, but have eternal Second Life.

bronxelf

I had walked away from my desk to go back to work on painting a bookcase, and something occurred to me. It's all about the assumption of intent.

People who use RZ are making the assumption that people who land at this sims may be guilty before doing anything.

People who are upset about the sign campaign are making the assumption that the merchants who choose to "protect" themselves by means of this product are doing so out of fear and ignorance, and should in turn be given sympathy- the assumption that basically they're too stupid? lazy? ignorant? to have educated themselves on what this product is and what it does, and as such should have no pressure or economic consequences associated with doing so.

People who are displaying the signs are assuming that a) people who land on their sims are not considered to be criminals by default, and b) that the people who have chosen to use this product are not stupid, are not lazy and are not ignorant. We assume they are independent, smart people who have made a choice that they feel is best for them. They're allowed to do that. It does not, by default shield them from the consequences of that choice.

However, CONSUMERS of all kinds, *should* know what this thing does and that many locations are gathering this kind of information about them (and their alts, etc.) They then get to make an informed choice rather than be kept in the dark about all of this.

Psyke Phaeton

It is completely appropriate for the people to achieve justice if the justice makers will not do it for them. And yes it will be uglier, so the justice makers should not let that become the final option in the first place. Listening LL?? You guys at LL made this situation.

bronxelf

I am sorry if i was unclear. The only thing Samantha did was tighten a few words in paragraph 3. There were no substantive changes.

I apologize for any confusion.

Elysium Hynes

Yes it is scary, it´s scary that i have to put up sign informing people on this is just as scary as what these systems do.

and anything can be misread Jahar, i have way of stoping that really.

And yes i agree with you completly on anything else, but honestly keeping our mouths shut and pretending security is not an issue is way more scary.

Edited to had i´ve had this sign at my place for ages

Attached Thumbnails

 

Whazoo Jigsaw

The problem here is, you seem to have left off the most important detail
in this whole thing:
Copybot viewers detected: %002

Lil Hapmouche

I bet Ely and I will end up as the only ones not getting banned, even if the whole grid gets blacklisted to whatever leaks of the tool exploiting security leaks.

Umm. I repeatedly tried to receive reasons and explanations from people who ran such tools, first CDS, now Redzone. But sadly, it always seems more worthwhile and more productive to have an in-depth discussion with your office wall.
Best you'd get was (and obviously is) other store owners who claim not to use such products, but who get up in arms in favour of those who use them.

It's rare to see someone speaking for themselves.

Argent Stonecutter

That's not what I wrote. What I wrote is: "Displaying those signs is encouraging people to avoid shops that don't display them."

That isn't me saying "only shop at these places".

That is me saying "this is how this kind of sign works".

It doesn't matter what the signs say. That's how people react to them, for better or worse.

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Argent Stonecutter -- Skyhook Station -- Coonspiracy Store

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."


The previous is a cybernetic datum published - in direct contravention of DoD Regulation #229RR3X3 - as being conducive to the physical, psychological and/or social well-being of the population.

Misty Harley

1. I never said Ely's idea was a bad one. In fact, I actually said that education....her intention....was a good thing.

2. I said the reason I felt it all went to hell in a hand basket is because of Ely's intentions being misconstrued and being handled as a form of a litmus test. (and pardon, I didn't see where Argent tried to clarify, so if he did...as I stated in the other posts...unless I misunderstood him--this is how I read it and other posts that followed when he was called on it.

3. I now know what Humps feels like *nod nod nod*

If I say that I think her idea was taken or could be taken out of context then it must mean I'm against the idea completely. I'm actually not. I'm against the idea of it being used as a litmus test by anyone who thinks her EDUCATIONAL sign means "safe to shop" (fo many reasons, it would not mean that at all; RZ off property creator placing it so they get the sales, a creator not even knowing about RZ or the educational signs)

And as the past has shown me...that is generally what ends up happening. Someone tries to educate and another takes it ten steps ahead of the game and unfortunately the person who came up with the idea gets the blame.

I am against GZ because the stores do not need to have RZ on property for the owner to use the device...it gives a person a secure feeling and makes them think they are shopping some place safe when in all reality...they may be supporting the very creators that they are trying to avoid. It does what RZ does...gives a false sense of security when none exists.

I'm against RZ because it's just ass-hattery at it's finest.

I'm not overly fond of signs such as this because it ends up going south fast. That doesn't mean I wouldn't put one up if I were still creating in SL...it just means I'm not fond of them and would do whatever I could to not only educate but also stop people from using it as some sort 'safe shopping litmus test'

Lil Hapmouche

Ah, right, the sign discussion / mob mentality / boycott / whatever you choose to call it... thanks, forgot to add witchhunt and bullying

If a sign says "Keep media turned off", is this equal to saying "Don't you dare to ever listen to any music!"?
According to the reasoning displayed in several posts, it has to.

Mocksoup Graves

My sign is a 'click me for more information' notecard dispenser. The notecard sends people to these threads and the JIRA and I believe RedZone's own forums...so people can decide for themselves.

I don't think that's a witchhunt, you guys. Really, not.a.witchhunt.... That would be letting people read and decide for themselves what they want to do with the information. That's not bullying, that's not a witchhunt.


Perhaps I should be reading that you are warning us not to become what we hate?

Argent Stonecutter

I rarely if ever listen to music streams in SL. I let iTunes provide my music when I'm at a party, or (for the times when there's actually a good DJ spinning tunes) I get the media URL and stream it independently of where I am, so my own stream connection doesn't start and stop when SL crashes... or when I arrive and depart. If it's good music, why shouldn't I keep listening anyway?

Misty Harley

Out of all the ideas...and hopefully Ely doesn't take offense..but this is the best one yet. It gets the person to read, to investigate and to educate and would be very hard for anyone to start trying to use it as a litmus test going "SHOP HERE" or DON"T SHOP THERE"

and yes, I do get concerned about that. I saw what the whole thing did with the copybot/content theft signs...people who were just breaking into the fashion industry suddenly being shunned because someone on the feeds decided 'sign means green light shop!" If someone disagreed with the sign..they were piranha's.

Maybe I'm having flashbacks and this will not turn out that way and all will be well.

Lil Hapmouche

Gah! Don't ruin my rhetorical attempt to mock the quite over the top interpretations of "you put up warning signs = you must be bullying / mobbing / boycotting, sucker!".

Elysium Hynes

My partner spent hours installing sounds around the sim so people with media off could enjoy the mood, because the number of people keeping it off grew a lot since these systems showed up, and this is just my own perception i doubt there are any numbers on that.
I myself only use media at our place.

Lil Hapmouche

I didn't because I'm usually too lazy to switch it on. But your teleporter voice announcements are way cool.

Ann Otoole

and LL recently made it difficult to obtain stream urls by trying to hide admin menu enabled in a debug setting.

more and more it looks like LL is part of this problem intentionally. They try to prevent people from using a stream url in winamp or whatever, they try to squash public dissent against these things etc.

I now doubt Humble can do anything and is just a PR sock puppet with no power at all.