bronxelf

Granted Ive been awake all of two seconds but there's something I'm fundamentally not understanding in your position.

The people using RZ are, by default creating/adding to a database of people, and their alts (correct or not.) and banning at will.

The people who have signs explaining the issue aren't collecting *anything* or banning anyone. There's no bullying there. None. Displaying a sign is not the same as adding people to a database without their consent. They are not banning anyone from their land for continuing to go to stores that use RZ. First of all there's no way for them to know, and second, truly there's no reason for them to *care*. Their purpose is not to force people to do anything but to explain what they perceive as a problem. The RZ people however ban whomever they want with their "security measure" even though it has little to do with actual copybot, and everything to do with outing alts- for good or bad.

I fail to see how these two things are equivalent, at all. Not by goal, not by means, and not by methods.

I don't give the remotest tin damn if people want to risk their privacy on sims that use RZ. That's their *choice*. They get to have one. But they should know that not only do we not use it, we find it abhorrent, and explain *why* so that the choice they make may be an informed one.

Masami Kuramoto

When I pointed out that RedZone is a scam because copybotters can easily bypass it by disabling media playback, I received this PM:



And of course he added me to his global ban list. He couldn't ban my alt because I keep media playback disabled all the time, but now I get labeled a copybotter and teleported home every time I enter a RedZone area with this avatar. This is zFire's way to handle dissent.

zFire's intentions are the same as Ash Qin's and Skills Hak's: assume authority by creating information asymmetry. The scam is successful because there are a lot of merchants in SL with an IQ below room temperature. They pay money for the privilege of deploying someone else's griefer tool on their land while the copybotters are having a field day robbing them blind.

Joshua Nightshade

I wouldn't expect anything else.

Look at the implied threat at the top of his forums, for example:

Mocksoup Graves

I am not sure how to do strikeout in my posts, so could you all just replace "had the best of intentions" with "is a complete and utter asshat". Thanks.

Walker

I've been unable to reach some destinations for the past couple of days (like the Drowsy sim) and wondered if it's because he's identified me as a copybotter for opposing his system and methods... and maybe for outing his little website project on the side.

ETA: Of course, it's quite possible the Drowsy people don't even use this system and have closed their sim for some reason.

Elysium Hynes

I agreed with most of what you said and again i apreciate your colaboration to the thread and i would like to add that personally like i said before I don“t have any sign mentioning any systems or oposite systems and i certainly mention no other merchants in anywhere, i don“t belive boycott lists or white lists work much either.

There are so many systems like this on the market and more will come if LL doesn“t do something about it. Until then i will have the sign with info because this is a social matter to me and i belive it to be important, the same way i have other signs with other info.

I don“t think i“ve seen any mob beahviour around here really or disrespect for any merchant, i“ve stated several times i“m mostly a custumer more than a merchant really.

I remenber when i mentioned early the silence from merchants was deafening for me as a consumer, and how many times i understand why someone would put something like this in their stores, i remenber even Free mentioning they would not post in fear of a lynching mob. And i told her something in the lines of i want to shop at stores i really do but i need to know i am safe while doing it. And while merchants shouldn“t live in fear so shouldn“t we.

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Circle Widdershins

THE DEJA VU IS STRONG IN THIS THREAD

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Cristiano We need to make 'endless celestial sex' into a thing.

Elysium Hynes

Damn you give me your banning foo so i can be on their list already. Sucks staying at home building all the time

Candace Morgwain

Elysium most merchants, especially clothing designers that I know of, are hermits. We are like wild animals...more scared of you than you are of us sort of thing.

Many don't post because they are busy working. Many don't post because they are allergic to drama. As for me, I would never use one of these systems but I don't post a lot here. I've been burned on another forum from sharing too much of myself with people I thought dear friends and being rejected for what and who I am/was. My state of emotional being is fragile and I always weigh my participation in a thread with what might come of it as a result, and if I can deal with that.

Anyway, I'm just saying there are many reasons that people don't post their support. Don't think we aren't listening though. I like to show my support and participation in my agrees and likes and yays for others' posts. I guess I'm participating in that mob mentality or sumptin...

Oh and I don't use redzone or anything like it and never will!

Oh and double edit...i've seen quite a few people get accused of self promotion for speaking up and saying they do/don't something. That's another reason not to post.

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Erich Templar

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Erich Templar
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Elysium Hynes

I know Candance i“m slacking on work myself atm while keeping an eye on soup, i try not to be too emotional in public even if sometimes is hard. We gotta keep a clear head in the end.

Mocksoup Graves

I am behaving!


wait...

Circle Widdershins

.....why?

Lil Hapmouche

Manually add See?

A3on Flux

Banned just for having media off, lets see how long that lasts...when creators are being banned also on each others sims LOL

This is so ridiculous, why do people even fall into buying crap like this.
It's more about money than security seems with anyone selling similar systems obviously since over 9000 alike scripts have been passed, posted, and told around the internet to do such things. Same crap all over again

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Walker

Hehe! I just logged in and tried a few known RZ locations and didn't have a problem. RZ is down right now of course due to being hacked and maybe these sims require me to visit just once when it *is* working in order to detect and ban me. We'll see. Regardless, I've just IMd the owner of the sim I mentioned earlier to ask why I can't access it. There's no indication anywhere in the place profile that it's down for redesign or anything.

Nikita Weymann

Naw, Drowsy's closed till March for springtime redecorating.

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Humps

I shall try to say again as reasonably as I can that in my opinion encouraging your customers to boycott another merchant in order to impose your will upon those merchants is not an effective way to change peoples minds or to educate them. It is the use of economic sanctions, forcing people to comply which WILL change behaviour so in that regard you win. However it won't resolve the underlying issue in that people want or even need to feel protected however illusory that protection might be. In that regard you fail and fail miserably. These merchants will feel resentful of the fact that they were forced into a corner and they will be less rather than more likely to listen to your justifications. You will entrench any preconceptions they may have and they will feel that it is they that get the short end of the stick yet again.

To get what you want by forcing anothers will is bullying. Like it or not that is the most polite way I can term it. To get what you want by persuasion and education is far more effective in the long term. What I am hearing in this thread is little more that the end justifies the means. That is terribly short sighted.

There has been little empathy shown here for those who feel they need to protect their stuff by using these systems. Understanding why they do so and offering alternative support if not solutions (because even I admit that would be difficult) would have been a good place to start a respectful, civil dialogue. Maybe that is not as motivational as placards and boycotts but it would have been a hell of a lot more substantial.

Maybe you don't care as long as you protect your right to privacy. Maybe the end really does justify the means. I don't know....I am hardly the authority.

What I do expect is that the next time someone posts here that their stock was ripped and being enjoyed by all and sundry full perms that instead of just posting the usual obligatory "I am so sorry this happened to you" You show the same compassion in organising to fight what after all should be a common injustice as you have shown fervour for protecting yourselves.

Yes I always let this issue get to me. Joshua is right. This and censorship are about the two things guaranteed to whip me into a frenzy. If I have been OTT I apologise but I honestly believe that someone needed to dampen the ardour of some in this thread who were getting just a tad too enthusiastic. That more constructive posts like Orin, Mockies and Erichs are now appearing is no bad thing and very much needed.

You can think I am wrong. You can accuse me of being ill informed. You can even consider me too liberal or passive....(or even hyperbolic). I don't really care. Rather that than be accused of kicking the middle man because I feel powerless against those who cause the real problems.

That is me done for this thread now. My posistion could not be clearer. I will do myself no favours by telling you stuff you don't want to hear. I won't display any sign because I think you are fighting the wrong enemy.

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Walker

Hahaha. Turns out I may not have the ban-fu after all.

Innula Zenovka

I think that was personal; zFire being snotty with Masami. In his forum, he advises people not to block folks who've got media off because that would apparently catch at least half of SL.

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Mocksoup Graves

My soundcard has this weird glitch in SL, audio is all choppy and muddled. I have updated my soundcard drivers but it's still weird. It works fine on external links. So I keep media off for that reason and just listen to whatever Tracer had tuned into.

Oh, god. AM I TRACER'S ALT?!

Joshua Nightshade

I have always demonstrated empathy for content creators who have their shit taken. I have been screaming for years, years, about how badly LL handles DMCA claims. I created a whole campaign about freebie reselling long before copybot was even around. I have empathy for content creators and I understand this is a sucky situation.

Where you lose me

is the presumption that because it's a sucky situation, content creators are allowed to do whatever they want to safeguard their content, even when those methods either don't work or are ridiculously abusive to customers.

No one is entitled to that.

Argent Stonecutter

Have you an actual proposal for how that fight should be organized? That's the problem, there's an asymmetry in the two situations... there are techniques one can use against people who promote worthless nostrums, but there isn't anything that can be done to fight economics. It works whether you approve of it or not.

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bronxelf

Suggestion and explaining is *not* force. I'm entirely lost as to how you make this comparison. Force requires there be a consequence to not doing so. There isn't one. I would agree with you if there were consequences on our sims (for example) for going to and buying stuff from people who use RZ. RZ *is* using force, via technical means. There is no force in that sign. There are no consequences to ignoring it and going where you want. There is no force here. There really isn't. But that's how change in the marketplace occurs. It's gradual. I could point to many examples- that's one of the reasons that we have hybrid cars today. The first people who came out and advocated for that were laughed at- but we have them now. The first people who advocated for regulation on what could be considered to be organic foods were laughed at also. No one *forces* people to buy hybrid cars, or organic oranges. But more do now- because they have more information than they did before.

By the way, ironically, I don't care who knows who my alt is- she isn't the slightest secret in any way. So I'm not protecting my privacy- hell my RL ID is not a secret either. But I understand that not everyone is in a position to be able to not worry about that kind of thing.

It's not protecting me. It's not protecting our stuff either, since copybotters don't *care* about RZ and walk around it like it were tissue paper. The only thing we're protecting are the identities of the people who visit our sims. People get to decide for *themselves* if privacy control is an issue for them on our sims. They don't get to decide that for themselves on sims that use RZ. That's the difference. We actually give people a choice. There is no force. For force, you have to look to RZ.

Joshua Nightshade

If you are, how big is your penis? He won't tell me.