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Old 02-27-2011, 07:43 PM   #4851 (permalink)
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As far as I know, the intent of visitor counters is not to amass personal information about people, but the intent of redzone is (i.e. establishing connections between user accounts/alts). So, it's really an incorrect comparison on his part I think.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Zfire made an incorrect assumption?
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:46 PM   #4852 (permalink)
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This is going to sound a little crazy but I kind of feel sorry for crackerjack and people like him. I just read that post he made, the one he edited 6 times. Poor guy has absolutely no knowledge of the things about which he speaks. He is so angry he can't see the forest for the trees. His accusations and claims are so far off they have gone well beyond left field. They are out there somewhere beyond even the known universe (pun not intended). It makes me wonder what sort of miserable life he has led that makes him so bitter and so bent out of shape that he can't think rationally or logically.

There are so many things I wish I could say. But in doing so I would only end up outing myself and causing more grief for myself than what I am already dealing with...

*sighs, wiping the tears away and tries to get a grip*


Edit: This is not a joke. I am dead fucking serious.
Did you feel sorry for Arabella when Emerald was going down in flames? I certainly didn't. Crackerjack, like Arabella, has chosen his own camp.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:46 PM   #4853 (permalink)
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I don't think it is lack of skills, I think it's a sub-cultural scorn for language-as-an-authority-figure. Put more simply, "I don't like it because teacher said I had to."
Which is silly.

Anymore, using the language properly is what sets one apart from the "normies."
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:58 PM   #4854 (permalink)
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Zfire made an incorrect assumption?
No. He's kissing the baby to cover stealing its lollypop. It's not an incorrect assumption, it's blatant misdirection, and it frankly annoys the floo-flab out of me.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:58 PM   #4855 (permalink)
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Eh, people like crackerjack will get burned, one way or the other. You can't go through life too long with that sort of mentality and not face a consequence or two eventually.

I'm still quite reasonably minded about a lot of RZ's users. I honestly believe a lot of people were duped or at least led into temptation--I mean, some guy offers a product that will supposedly solve all your griffer problems, and it's going be hard to resist, even when that little voice is telling you this might be a load of crap. I can't condone taking that path, but I understand it. Plenty of us have been tempted into doing bad things.

But again...consequences. Live in denial long enough, and yeah, you'll face them.

Right now, RZ's users, especially the ones hiding it and using it for evil, need to ask themselves whether this battle is worth their account. If I were using a product that wound up being a ToS violator and causing all this trouble, I'd get rid of it. I've put too much into Relm--and spent too much on Relm--to risk her over some stupid product I'd bought. But the longer these users cling to RZ, the more risk their accounts are in.

Edit: I have a visitor thingy at my store--her name's Ellyn. She's really there to give out notecards, but she does tell me the last 100 visitors. She doesn't, however, tell me those visitors' alts. And frankly, I find the information quite useless, anyway. Maybe some people use it to compile lists for spamming? I don't know. I figure you were either there and bought something or you were there and didn't...maybe you just crossed the parcel boundary while terraforming, hell. It means nothing.


So true. We each make our own decisions and then we have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

The greeter I use does nothing more than send a local chat message that was typed into the description field, remembers the visitor names and the total number of visitors until it is reset. Nothing is saved unless I save my local chat. That is all it does. It doesn't connect to anything outside of SL. If I forget to check it and you return to the sim it doesn't greet you again. It only does when I reset it. Which I sometimes forget to do. I installed it because I felt it would be better to have some sort of an acknowledgement that you were there rather than nothing at all. Most people seem to prefer having thier presence acknowledged rather than ignored.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:00 PM   #4856 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Bikcin View Post
I've been going through the blogs concerning redzone, IsellSl is particularily enlightening when it comes to the attitudes of the redzoneistas.

I'll put my caveats out there before I continue. I have no alts, I'm not a creator (I made a wood cube once), I don't own greenzone and while I've been single handedly running a business for an absent owner, I don't own a business. I've been griefed twice in 4 years, and I've seen the effects of griefing maybe 5 times.

Now, that being said, why am I so adamantly opposed to Redzone? My RL job requires me to spend 1-2 hours a day on privacy issues. Identity theft is a very real problem, and it's one that involves puzzle building, with the victim being the puzzle.

So, Zfire has built a database with the names of avatars attached to IP addresses. With that information, he knows the approximate geographic location of the avatar. So far no big deal, all of us at times say in conversation where we're from, I always tell people I'm from Vancouver, Canada. However, I'm making a judgement call based on the people around me and it's my choice if I want to say that or not. Zfire has taken from me my right to choose whether I want to share that information or not.

Okay, so we know my approximate location, and my avatar name. From looking at my profile, we can tell whether I've got payment info on file. Now he knows 3 things-My avatar name, my approximate location, and whether I have sufficient credit to have a credit card. The puzzle is coming together. He notices an IP that comes from his town. He notices the person describes living in a neighbourhood that he recognizes. At one point in the conversation, the avatar he is watching describes a great greek restaurant across the street. So now he's narrowed the information down, he knows what apartment building this avatar lives in. One night this avatar talks about her new puppy, he now has a marker to describe this person.

So, we've now gotten from a tool that will supposedly stop people from copybotting, to a valuable tool for someone wanting to stalk an individual in Real Life. Where I stopped the paragraph above, the user with access to Zfire's database is able to cause great personal damage to the real person behind the avatar.

With the great huffing and puffing of people who own Redzone saying "I would never do that" there is simply far too great a risk for someone unhinged to do the above. This is why people like me are upset about Redzone. It's far too powerful a tool to be allowed to be used without any sort of supervision.

I've said it before- you are a smart cookie. Now here's the perfect storm scenario:

Youre 16 years old. You have payment info on file because mom and dad allowed you to use a prepaid card in order to get it.

How long does it take for a stalker to find a kid?

I wonder, how many of the people defending this nightmare have kids of their own and can connect those dots- what happens when they turn *on each other* and have access to that database?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:04 PM   #4857 (permalink)
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Which is silly.

Anymore, using the language properly is what sets one apart from the "normies."

I consider that, apart from an occasional typo, using "the" language (whichever it may be for an individual...) is what sets adults apart from children, and professionals from amateurs.

There's really no excuse for such disjointed, incoherent posts.

zFire, crackerjack et alia are rhetorically functioning on about a 3rd grade level. They couldn't frame an argument they bought at an art gallery.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:07 PM   #4858 (permalink)
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So true. We each make our own decisions and then we have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

The greeter I use does nothing more than send a local chat message that was typed into the description field, remembers the visitor names and the total number of visitors until it is reset. Nothing is saved unless I save my local chat. That is all it does. It doesn't connect to anything outside of SL. If I forget to check it and you return to the sim it doesn't greet you again. It only does when I reset it. Which I sometimes forget to do. I installed it because I felt it would be better to have some sort of an acknowledgement that you were there rather than nothing at all. Most people seem to prefer having thier presence acknowledged rather than ignored.
You know, you have to wonder about the future of our world when even a landmark giver or greeter will stir dark suspicions.....

I have a couple of big projects I've designed .... I think at least one of them would have been a pretty awesome product line, and the other had huge fun potential. Ironically enough, that second one would have enhanced social networking, which ...lolz ....isn't that the new good thing?? However, both require database access and I'm really wondering what the acceptance is going to be for any product like that, given I could be dropping god knows what into it and be perfectly within the ToS as currently interpreted.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:11 PM   #4859 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Eva Ryan View Post
Did you feel sorry for Arabella when Emerald was going down in flames? I certainly didn't. Crackerjack, like Arabella, has chosen his own camp.


As I was unaware at the time of much of what had occured I can't really answer that one way or another. I was too busy trying to figure out what was wrong with my pc and why my connection seemed to be so slow when it was high speed broadband and why my browser kept being highjacked for no apparent reason since all my malware and adware scans kept coming up empty.

Sound familiar? It should. It wasn't until after I had finally reformatted and changed from cable to DSL and then to FIOS that I found out what was really going on. And of course by then it was too late. Emerald was already dead. Arabella had already posted the blog and Phoenix had risen.

In hindsight, no I can't say I felt sorry for her. I was too angry at the time to feel sorry for anyone. BUT I didn't go around bashing her or the others for what they did. I chalked it up as a lesson learned the hard way.

Do I use Phoenix? Yes, I do. Do I trust the dev team? Well... yes and no. I do trust them up to a certain point. Beyond that... I don't trust anyone. I do have more faith in the Phoenix team than I ever did in the Emerald team. Whether or not that faith is misplaced remains to be seen. So far so good though.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:17 PM   #4860 (permalink)
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I consider that, apart from an occasional typo, using "the" language (whichever it may be for an individual...) is what sets adults apart from children, and professionals from amateurs.

There's really no excuse for such disjointed, incoherent posts.

zFire, crackerjack et alia are rhetorically functioning on about a 3rd grade level. They couldn't frame an argument they bought at an art gallery.
But... they're experts in their fields. Crackerjack states several times he's an expert in online security.

ETA: Oh silly me...I'm forgetting the definition of "expert":

Ex = has-been
Spurt = drip under pressure.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:18 PM   #4861 (permalink)
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:20 PM   #4862 (permalink)
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You know, you have to wonder about the future of our world when even a landmark giver or greeter will stir dark suspicions.....

I have a couple of big projects I've designed .... I think at least one of them would have been a pretty awesome product line, and the other had huge fun potential. Ironically enough, that second one would have enhanced social networking, which ...lolz ....isn't that the new good thing?? However, both require database access and I'm really wondering what the acceptance is going to be for any product like that, given I could be dropping god knows what into it and be perfectly within the ToS as currently interpreted.

Things like the Redzone controversy is the reason I haven't bothered to try to develop many of the ideas I have had. I have a server sitting here that I could have used. But as long as things like Redzone and the ability to abuse it exist in SL those ideas will just have to stay on the shelf. It really is a shame that the residents of SL have no real idea of what they are missing out on because of a few irresponsible people.

I have often thought of the "fate of the world" over the years as I have watched children grow up and become adults. Sometimes the fate or future of the world looks very bleak and other times it looks almost bright. As things stand, I'm afraid it isn't as nearly as bright as it could or even should be.

Last edited by WolfEyes; 02-27-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:21 PM   #4863 (permalink)
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I'm assuming the FTA is "failure to appear" (common meaning in the UK when referring to a court summons)?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:23 PM   #4864 (permalink)
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:25 PM   #4865 (permalink)
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The point remains that Facebook is a social network focused around real life identities.
I know you don't care... just had to get my 2 cents in.

FB probably doesn't give a rat's ass if we use our real name or not really. What I think they want is a 1:1 relationship between facebook accounts and human bodies (for numerous obvious reasons), and imposing a "you must use your real name" rule is simply a fairly effective way of enforcing it.

Sure I have a FB account. Same name as I use here. Frankly, none of my friends would ever find me if I used the name on my driver's license. No, I don't use 'Jopsy' on contracts, mortgages or the bank, but I do just about everywhere else.

It's gotten to the point where my RL friends and family don't even use email anymore, they do everything in facebook. If I want to be involved, it behooves me to tolerate FB. bleagh.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:30 PM   #4866 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WolfEyes View Post
This is going to sound a little crazy but I kind of feel sorry for crackerjack and people like him. I just read that post he made, the one he edited 6 times. Poor guy has absolutely no knowledge of the things about which he speaks. He is so angry he can't see the forest for the trees. His accusations and claims are so far off they have gone well beyond left field. They are out there somewhere beyond even the known universe (pun not intended). It makes me wonder what sort of miserable life he has led that makes him so bitter and so bent out of shape that he can't think rationally or logically.

There are so many things I wish I could say. But in doing so I would only end up outing myself and causing more grief for myself than what I am already dealing with...

*sighs, wiping the tears away and tries to get a grip*


Edit: This is not a joke. I am dead fucking serious.
I don't really feel sorry for people like him. But I can say in all honesty, I don't wish them ill will either.

Whatever anyone wants to do in SL is OK by me, as long as it does not impede on my, or others, enjoyment of the experience and rights to reasonable privacy.

I may disagree with the behavior of those using redzone, and will do my small part in helping stop a product that I think is unethical and violates the spirit of the ToS, but I still don't want to demonize those who (for whatever reason) feel the need to use something like redzone.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:34 PM   #4867 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walker View Post
I After reading crackerjack's attempts at bullying Tonya into revealing real life information

....

I'm sorry, the bitch what? Oh hell no.

(Tonya, forgive me.)

The post Tonya made this morning was largely a direct result of a conversation she had with me, not long before. She was trying to direct me to the thread. I wouldn't go- can't anyway- the domain is dead in my hostfile and will not be removed. But a good chunk of what she said was lifted directly from what **I** told her (and I assume she agreed, and replied there on her own- I was asleep.)

I've said this before- Tonya wasn't PART of Emeraldgate. She was only on the Emerald team for *four days* before the entire project went poof. To lump her in with that whole scandal is deliberate misinformation. To try to go after her RL info (and she didn't lie in her post- she is a close RL friend, and I am the one who got her into SL) shows *exactly* what this guy is made of. It's a stalker tool- and he's proving the point that it appeals to people interested in stalking

But just because I know that he's watching this? HERE YA GO, SPORT- THIS IS WHERE THAT POST CAME FROM.:

Tonya was saying there was an objection to the limited ban list. here we go:


[04:12] Axi Kurmin: Limited ban list?
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: ok JIRA it
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: next?
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: they cant do anything about copybot
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: if they want something done about griefing?
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: they can ALL pay up for premium accounts
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: so the lab can hire more people.
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: oh no they want it for free?
[04:12] Axi Kurmin: too bad, so sad- the lab cant afford to staff that.
[04:13] Tonya Souther: The ones complaining are paying tier...
[04:14] Axi Kurmin: then it' *really simple*
[04:14] Axi Kurmin: theyre complaining about free alt accounts?
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: make the land payment only.
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: no alts will be there
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: just mains
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: very few people will pay for multiple accounts
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: they want it both ways
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: they want everyone to come
[04:15] Axi Kurmin: but they dont want to deal with the risk

[04:16] Axi Kurmin: turn object entry off
[04:16] Axi Kurmin: turn rez off
[04:16] Axi Kurmin: and go on with your day
[04:21] Axi Kurmin: Why cant they JIRA for unlimited ban lists?
[04:22] Axi Kurmin: who wouldnt support it?
[04:22] Tonya Souther: Good question.

[04:22] Axi Kurmin: if you want unlimited ban lists, JIRA IT.
[04:23] Axi Kurmin: Copybot? Cant help.
[04:23] Axi Kurmin: Griefing? well unlimited ban would help
[04:23] Axi Kurmin: disable object entry
[04:23] Axi Kurmin: make no rez
[04:23] Axi Kurmin: this would also help

You will note- Tonya says very little in this conversation. What the hell are people jumping her shit for?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:37 PM   #4868 (permalink)
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You will note- Tonya says very little in this conversation. What the hell are people jumping her shit for?
Because I'm a convenient target.

In this case, I put up with it because I'm doing what I believe is right.

(And in case anyone cares, Bronxelf does have my permission to post that.)
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:38 PM   #4869 (permalink)
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I have to give Tonya credit she“s super patient with crackerpot there.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:45 PM   #4870 (permalink)
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I have to give Tonya credit she“s super patient with crackerpot there.

She's super patient in general. She may be a lot of things. I don't always agree with her, I sometimes think she's outright impossible, and we have had more than one argument in our many years. But the ONE thing that she is? All the time? Is honest. To an absolute fault- and sometimes even at her own expense. She is not *devious*. and she is not a liar.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:45 PM   #4871 (permalink)
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And here he is again now he wants afilliate vendors.

iSellSL.ath.cx/MadSci • View topic - Redzone Vendor

"zFire anyway you can set up a Redzone vendor system so the loyal users can sell your products to the masses? Hell Id sell them for free just to annoy Phoenix and the GZers."
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:46 PM   #4872 (permalink)
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Because I'm a convenient target.

In this case, I put up with it because I'm doing what I believe is right.

(And in case anyone cares, Bronxelf does have my permission to post that.)
The best revenge will be when Phoenix (and other viewers...) are released with the URL filter patch, and nearly overnight Rz becomes not just ineffective, but completely useless... and perhaps even economically damaging to those that use it.

Hang in there.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:47 PM   #4873 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elysium Hynes View Post
And here he is again now he wants afilliate vendors.

iSellSL.ath.cx/MadSci • View topic - Redzone Vendor

"zFire anyway you can set up a Redzone vendor system so the loyal users can sell your products to the masses? Hell Id sell them for free just to annoy Phoenix and the GZers."
heh heh heh heh ........YES! RedZone vendors everywhere on RedZone land .... who needs warning signs? And would do a better job of getting out the word to the other > 98% of the population. How can we encourage this brilliant strategy?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:49 PM   #4874 (permalink)
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Can someone tell me if Sione's patch for Phoenix is available yet? or do we have to wait for an official viewer update to get it?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:50 PM   #4875 (permalink)
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She's super patient in general.
You just haven't seen me go off on anyone...and probably won't, because doing so in NYC is tantamount to suicide.

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But the ONE thing that she is? All the time? Is honest. To an absolute fault- and sometimes even at her own expense. She is not *devious*. and she is not a liar.
There's a word for that: "integrity". I take mine very, very seriously.
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