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Casey Pelous · 02-26-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paola Delpaso

Not at all baffling, methinks.

After all (and as someone laid out in considerable detail a few dozen pages back), they can't afford throwing out the Facebook baby with the RZ bathwater.

LOLOLOLOL! Who WAS that wise woman who posted that? I gotta read her stuffz!

Mad Mouse · 02-26-2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielRavenNest

This is not RedZone support. If you want info on their product, visit their Marketplace listing, or their website.

I was asking because I wondered about the ramifications, not because I want one -.-

Tonya Souther · 02-26-2011, 05:10 PM

BTW, I've looked over Henri's patch, as described on his forum. I disagree with several of his design decisions, and so won't be importing his code.

I will get with him the next chance I get and see if he can tell me what part of the patch is the crash fixes he mentioned, though. Crash fixes are always good.

Sling Trebuchet · 02-26-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Pelous

Although the written ToS seems to say datascraping without consent isn't allowed, the de facto ToS allows it.

All that seems to be banned is the sharing of alts, not the datascraping that leads to it. Baffling, isn't it?

I'm sort of tempted to change my sig to
"Your World, LL's complete lack of Imagination"
but I'll stick with the current one.

I think LL are beyond redemption. They are on the dark side now.
I don't trust them any more.

**Samantha Poindexter** · 02-26-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Pelous

LOLOLOLOL! Who WAS that wise woman who posted that? I gotta read her stuffz!

bronxelf, in fact, but you made the same argument a few pages later.

Roxy Couturier · 02-26-2011, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Pelous

Although the written ToS seems to say datascraping without consent isn't allowed, the de facto ToS allows it.

All that seems to be banned is the sharing of alts, not the datascraping that leads to it. Baffling, isn't it?

I agree, but if people are only AR'ing zFire then the alt sharing is all that LL can really act on.

If people were ARing zFire -and- the Rz device owners for datascraping as well as alt sharing, they'd have more to act on.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-26-2011, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

so if 20,000+ devices all send secondlife.com urls to agents trying to get an IP by trying to force the agents to open the url as media wouldn't that constitute a DDOS attack on secondlife.com?

That would, as someone pointed out, be .agni.lindenlab.com URLs.

An extra 20,000 TCP/IP connections to a single sim? That might crash the sim, even with throttling.

(I still can't believe they're putting a full blown Apache server in the loop there)

**bronxelf** · 02-26-2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

No one's gonna pay for it through Paypal.

If he's forced out of SL the majority of users will take that to mean it's banned and not risk using it any longer.

The majority of those who don't think it's banned will not be motivated to use a third party payment tool -- and expose their RL information and banking details -- for the purchase.

The ones left won't represent enough financially to be worth it.

No. What'll happen is ONE person will get it through paypal. And then, mysteriously, you'll see it leaked all over the internet for free.

DanielRavenNest · 02-26-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

So seriously, don't use the service if you feel that way. It's not like you have to have a Facebook account to receive an organ transplant.

Sorry, but no. I value the information I can get from companies who post on Facebook and my privacy more highly than their data mining efforts, so I choose to use their service against their rules. They can throw me out if they want.

And actually, if you want an organ transplant, being able to contact a transplant center thru their page can be helpful:

Ochsner Multi-Organ Transplant Institute | Facebook

Kara Spengler · 02-26-2011, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6793 already has 41 votes and 36 watchers in 9 hours since creation. Hopefully people will post the url in groups and such so it goes viral and get that rate up so it grabs over 1000 watchers/voters in a few days.

They have a huge hole though. They say "opt-out" rather than "opt-in". The difference in wording pricks the ears of anyone used to privacy issues or spam.

**bronxelf** · 02-26-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya Ristow

Is it shoutcast?

When I last visited lots of clubs they were mostly running shoutcast. If you found stream sellers in-world they were almost certainly reselling shoutcast streams.

I'd like to know if everyone who buys shoutcast streams from a reseller has access to that admin panel you mention (if it's shoutcast). Shoutcast has logs if you host it. I'm wondering if you have access to those logs if you don't.

You do not, afaik, unless you have the admin password. The IPs/logs are not publicly visible from the webpanel.

**bronxelf** · 02-26-2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masami Kuramoto

I've been thinking about zFire's "60 seconds inactivity = consent" policy and how we should respond to it. In my opinion it's about time to give the RedZone mob a taste of their own medicine. Some people here have been concerned about public lists of RedZone locations because these might hurt those who decided to remove the RedZone spyware. But as you can see now in multiple cases, they're just testing new ways to hide the device, lying right into your face that they're clean. In the true zFire spirit, here's the solution:

Failure to remove RedZone within 24 hours = consent to public blacklisting.

The blacklist should contain the following info: SLURL of the affected parcel or sim, name of the parcel or sim owner, most recent date of detection. The only way to get off the list is to sell the parcel/sim. As long as RedZone is not banned by the Lab, it cannot possibly be against the TOS to publish a list of its users. The device is still "legal" after all.

His 60 seconds=consent policy when the Lab has specified express consent is beyond this. It's genuinely illegal and can get him seriously sued.

Anthonio B. · 02-26-2011, 05:29 PM

Atm he is using 5 or 10 seconds if I am right, waaaay to many.
Because people are going to crash out if they just arrived from TP.

Oops, sorry I was referring to the Eject function.... *blush*

Anya Ristow · 02-26-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey Pelous

All that seems to be banned is the sharing of alts, not the datascraping that leads to it. Baffling, isn't it?

Not at all. You can thank the edge-casers for that. That is, whenever someone objects to some policy or strategy or tool because of some contrived example of someone who might be adversely affected, you have an edge-caser. You didn't think The Lab was free of them, did you?

LL won't outright ban data mining because someone is likely to have thought of multiple edge cases where data mining is beneficial. Heck, you probably don't even need to be creative. Given their admiration for Facebook, it isn't hard to imagine services built on data collection that might benefit LL. It's certainly not someone making dresses that is going to stumble upon SL's killer app. It's likely going to be someone providing a data service. LL doesn't want to discourage The Next Big Thing from happening. When it does, *then* they'll ban it, and GOM it.

**bronxelf** · 02-26-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber Guity

So there is obvious proof that only one of the avatar names in the list needs to give consent, the way he's got it set up. LL really, really needs to clarify this with this guy.

I think they're going to, while they're laughing at his ineffectual sputtering while they tell him this is the reason they're banning him and his product from the grid.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 02-26-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielRavenNest

Sorry, but no. I value the information I can get from companies who post on Facebook and my privacy more highly than their data mining efforts, so I choose to use their service against their rules. They can throw me out if they want.

And, as Brenda pointed out, you'd be lining up with the scissors to castrate someone like zFire. Admittedly I'll concede there's a difference between Facebook requesting you not register falsely and zFire distributing account names without permission, but there is nevertheless a degree of hypocrisy.

You have failed to demonstrate how there's anything on Facebook that you need to access which justifies breaking the contractual obligation you make when you accept their ToS.

Quote:

And actually, if you want an organ transplant, being able to contact a transplant center thru their page can be helpful:

Ochsner Multi-Organ Transplant Institute | Facebook

That is a meaningless link and you know it.

DanielRavenNest · 02-26-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda Connolly

A little Devil's Advocacy. Is it a bit hypocritical to be a believer in the TOS in SL, as most of us are, and to pretty much feel that people who get caught violating it deserve some sort of punishment and then turn around and openly violate FB's TOS by creating "fake" accounts, and to get ruffled if those accounts wind up getting cancelled?

I don't "believe" in the SL Terms of Service, I accept and follow them, and provide correct RL ID and credit card information as part of that. Same with Amazon.com and Newegg.com, and any other merchant or service provider that has a legitimate reason to know who I am and where I live.

But random websites who ask for my name and other RL info, I have no qualms about filling in fake information. They have no legitimate need to know who I am if I am not buying anything there. And especially Facebook, with their past history of "accidentally" making public information people intended to keep private, I have no qualms about. And I would not get ruffled if they toss me out, that's within the rules they set up.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 02-26-2011, 05:39 PM

You have no legitimate need to use their service.

If you feel that strongly about it don't. use. the. service.

Not giving a shit if they cop to it and toss you out is irrelevant. I don't go around to places with specific rules I disagree with in order to break them and not give a shit if they kick me out upon discovery. That's wholly irrelevant to the point.

I respect that there are people who wish their digital selves to be wholly untraceable and divorced from their real identities. I am always irritated when those people refuse to treat my interest in not divorcing the two with the same respect -- which includes going onto places that are explicitly not about virtual identities and pseudonyms and using one anyway.

Kara Spengler · 02-26-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boy Lane

Yes, was thinking about this too. isellsl.ath.cx should be a default entry in any blocklist at the time of TPV installation. However that is not really foolproof as he can change that any time.

Sure they can be changed. I meant to put the currently known ones out there when a new version of a TPV is released. If other URLs are created in the meantime they can just be blacklisted the normal way.

I have not seen the feature change, but hopefully they are allowing wildcards in what people block/allow.

Jopsy Pendragon · 02-26-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter

I've been urging people to use streaming content sparingly for years. I got a lot of push back from people saying "nobody's going to do that" and "I don't care about that". And lo and behold, someone's doing it, and it turns out people do care. Funny thing.

And I was one of those people pushing back.

Why?

Because I expected LL to stand by their posted ToS/CS. Maybe not immediately, maybe not swiftly... but eventually and sufficiently enough to deter a business like zfire's from gaining strength or popularity.

But they failed to nip it in the bud, and now they'll have a much harder time ripping him out of their grid... if they bother at all.

Honestly, through all the stuff we've been through with LL... the various disappointments and frustrations, I've never before felt quite this betrayed by their negligence to enforce their policy.

Anya Ristow · 02-26-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxy Couturier

And 'scheme' is the operative word. Eventually such a scheme would be outed. They always are.

I called it a 'scheme', but I did not mean that it was rickety or easily discovered. In fact, it'd be quite difficult to discover if I kept my mouth shut. If I sold it as something other than a data mining tool, I might get a great number of people to use it and not know what it's really doing.

Quote:

Datascraping without consent isn't allowed in the current ToS.

It isn't forbidden. What's forbidden is the *sharing* of certain data.

Tengu Yamabushi · 02-26-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Doulton

...Bad faith actors destroyed Banlink ...

I don't want to derail this thread any further than it has been already - but you're quite incorrect. I don't think anyone on SLU would consider Travis a 'bad actor' - quite the contrary.

What killed Banlink was its abandonment by the DB operator due to her eventual lack of interest - it was essentially running unattended and unmaintained for a good long while. It was eventually brought down via an SQL-injection attack... and the operator simply pulled the plug at that point rather than take any more effort to fix things.

This has all been discussed here in various threads as it happened, so there's ample reading on the subject available if you're so inclined.

Jopsy Pendragon · 02-26-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

His 60 seconds=consent policy when the Lab has specified express consent is beyond this. It's genuinely illegal and can get him seriously sued.

I'm sure it'll get shoved back and forth a few times. Like bartering, he's bidding low, LL will counter, he'll counter their counter.

What will probably end up happening is:

Person arrives.
"The parcel owner here requires visitors to consent to an alt-background check. Click <url> if you consent. If you do not consent, please leave within 60 seconds or you will be banned and ejected."

Frankly... what with access lists, security orbs, redzone, cds, power-mad-land-owners-looking-for-any-drama-so-they-can-ban-people-wooo I think the only place I'll be teleporting anymore is home, and staying there.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-26-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jopsy Pendragon

And I was one of those people pushing back.

Why?

Because I expected LL to stand by their posted ToS/CS.

LL's interpretation of their own ToS has always been flakey. Adfarms were already against the ToS in many ways (eg, harassment), but they had to make it explicit before they would act. Many casinos and camping holes were against the ToS because of the way the degraded the performance of whole sims, but LL didn't act until they were forced to change the ToS.

And they rarely change their ToS until the pain level, as measured by user complaints, becomes extreme. As in the adfarm case. As in here.

This isn't new.

You have to learn to protect yourself, when you can.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 02-26-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jopsy Pendragon

I'm sure it'll get shoved back and forth a few times. Like bartering, he's bidding low, LL will counter, he'll counter their counter.

Honestly, I'm offended and (stupid me) disappointed that LL is even "negotiating" with this dick in the first place.

"Here's what's going to happen. You're going to do this, or we ban you."

"If you ban me I'll leak the database on another site!"

"Enjoy that. We've already spoken with our lawyers and determined that you collected the information in a manner that broke our terms of service. Hope you made enough from sales to pay for somebody good."

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02-26-2011, 05:10 PM	#4278 (permalink)
Tonya Souther Punching bag developer busy coding Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 853 My Mood: Business: Tonya's Restraint Works Client: Firestorm	BTW, I've looked over Henri's patch, as described on his forum. I disagree with several of his design decisions, and so won't be importing his code. I will get with him the next chance I get and see if he can tell me what part of the patch is the crash fixes he mentioned, though. Crash fixes are always good.

02-26-2011, 05:29 PM	#4288 (permalink)
Anthonio B. Been There, Done That Got milk ? Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 204 My Mood: SL Join Date: Originally: 2006 Business: CKA Enterprises mall Client: Phoenix - FireStorm	Atm he is using 5 or 10 seconds if I am right, waaaay to many. Because people are going to crash out if they just arrived from TP. Oops, sorry I was referring to the Eject function.... blush

02-26-2011, 05:39 PM	#4293 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Lustful Cockmonster *SLU Supporter* Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 51,807 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2004 Blog Entries: 1	You have no legitimate need to use their service. If you feel that strongly about it don't. use. the. service. Not giving a shit if they cop to it and toss you out is irrelevant. I don't go around to places with specific rules I disagree with in order to break them and not give a shit if they kick me out upon discovery. That's wholly irrelevant to the point. I respect that there are people who wish their digital selves to be wholly untraceable and divorced from their real identities. I am always irritated when those people refuse to treat my interest in not divorcing the two with the same respect -- which includes going onto places that are explicitly not about virtual identities and pseudonyms and using one anyway.

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