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Old 02-26-2011, 10:27 AM   #4026 (permalink)
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Ok, back on topic I've seen people mention an RZ HUD, is this only usable on your own land? Or is this something you can use anywhere?
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:27 AM   #4027 (permalink)
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??

Who said there was?

Why are you arguing with me about this?


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Old 02-26-2011, 10:31 AM   #4028 (permalink)
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"Widely" meaning by ISPs whose paid job it is to keep on top of such things. And the maintenance of those things is a major effort, made worthwhile by their wide usage. Is it really going to be worth someone's time to keep up with it in SL? And as Argent points out, if you block them they'll just get harder to detect.
It's fairly easy to keep up with RZ and other CDS copycats, and it does not take much effort at all. On the other hand it takes very much effort for him to keep up with blocks as he has to modify his spyware every single time it gets blocked, and it becomes costly (at least in terms of time and lost revenue/complains) as he has to move his domains.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:35 AM   #4029 (permalink)
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If you're concerned about anyone associating your personal identity with your SL identity, you can't run any services for SL users from a domain with your name on it.

Sione's patch isn't introducing a new problem, it's just drawing your attention to a problem that has existed all along.
You've gotten pretty far from my point. I'm not the one expressing concern over privacy (not that I don't have such concerns).

There was angst expressed at not being able to see media URLs (that admin option has apparently been removed) by the same people who don't want their IP address exposed. I don't think you can reasonably expect it both ways.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:35 AM   #4030 (permalink)
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Ok, back on topic I've seen people mention an RZ HUD, is this only usable on your own land? Or is this something you can use anywhere?

It is something you can use anywhere, and because of that I have yet to hear a single legitimate purpose for its existence.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:35 AM   #4031 (permalink)
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I guess I don't see the Facebook future quite the same as everybody else.
  • SL has a quite extensive FoaF social graph in the transitive closure over everybody's Friends lists.
  • FB has currently unrivalled capacity for attaching, augmenting, mining, exposing, and managing social graphs -- to the delight of a half billion or so users.
And nature abhors a vacuum.

Yeah, those Facebook users are "real" people (mostly, kinda), but that doesn't mean the entire social graph is derived from "real" Facebook friends. (It's already demonstrably not; ever gotten a Facebook invitation and noticed who it recommends as friends? Way over the "creepy" threshold.)

I just think the alt account identity problem is the tip of the iceberg, and we're in for a long slog through uncharted territory, with LL's entire business along for the ride. (Which is why I was so bitchy in a comment to Hamlet.)
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:39 AM   #4032 (permalink)
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You are the one that brought up locations as a better method than domain names.
Venues are a more convenient (not an unspecified "better") method for the end user. It allows your trusted venues to change streams (which they often do every time they change DJs) without you having to do more work.

It's the kind of thing you'd use at a place like Beebo's, where you explicitly trust the venue owner, not at a place you simply have not yet encountered a reason to mistrust.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:43 AM   #4033 (permalink)
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I guess I don't see the Facebook future quite the same as everybody else.
  • SL has a quite extensive FoaF social graph in the transitive closure over everybody's Friends lists.
  • FB has currently unrivalled capacity for attaching, augmenting, mining, exposing, and managing social graphs -- to the delight of a half billion or so users.
And nature abhors a vacuum.

Yeah, those Facebook users are "real" people (mostly, kinda), but that doesn't mean the entire social graph is derived from "real" Facebook friends. (It's already demonstrably not; ever gotten a Facebook invitation and noticed who it recommends as friends? Way over the "creepy" threshold.)

I just think the alt account identity problem is the tip of the iceberg, and we're in for a long slog through uncharted territory, with LL's entire business along for the ride. (Which is why I was so bitchy in a comment to Hamlet.)
The thing is for all of history LL has been so dam useless at marketing their product. First they didn't advertise at all. Then they let sex, controversy and the media advertise for them, then they target the wrong demographics and now they think Facebook is going to magically do it for them.

Not to mention when they do advertise they don't use the good parts of SL to do it. It's normally some shitty looking avatars with a crap build behind them.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:45 AM   #4034 (permalink)
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Venues are a more convenient (not an unspecified "better") method for the end user. It allows your trusted venues to change streams (which they often do every time they change DJs) without you having to do more work.

It's the kind of thing you'd use at a place like Beebo's, where you explicitly trust the venue owner, not at a place you simply have not yet encountered a reason to mistrust.
You don't need a patch to do that. You just turn media on when you arrive and off when you leave. Some people like listening to audio streams of the parcels they go to. A lot of the time it adds greatly to the immersion factor. But they just want to verify the domain before they let it play.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:46 AM   #4035 (permalink)
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It's hard to argue both that you don't want parcel owners to be able to get your IP address and that you must see theirs.
One day the customer returned to the mall, and he noticed that something had changed since his last visit. All the boxes and packages on the shelves did no longer bear the logos, photos and model names of the products inside. In fact it was impossible to tell what was inside, and who manufactured it. There was nothing but grey boxes all over the store, with generic labels such as "DVD Player", "Portable Music Player" etc.
"We're doing this to protect the privacy of the product vendors," the clerk told him. "If you want to know what's inside, you have to buy the product first."
"But how can I buy it? There's not even a price tag attached," the customer replied.
"Another protection measure. We'll tell you the price of the product after we ran a full financial and identity check-up on you. Do you consent with this?"
"Do I have a choice?"
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:49 AM   #4036 (permalink)
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On the other hand it takes very much effort for him to keep up with blocks as he has to modify his spyware every single time it gets blocked, and it becomes costly (at least in terms of time and lost revenue/complains) as he has to move his domains.
It's only one person who has to make that effort, and multiple people who have to counter it. It may be worth his time.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:57 AM   #4037 (permalink)
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:03 AM   #4038 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Anya Ristow View Post
You've gotten pretty far from my point. I'm not the one expressing concern over privacy (not that I don't have such concerns).

There was angst expressed at not being able to see media URLs (that admin option has apparently been removed) by the same people who don't want their IP address exposed. I don't think you can reasonably expect it both ways.
But it's a media call that's being forced onto the viewer. The stream owner is pushing that onto me. The data scraping is being pushed onto the viewer. Frankly if someone is pushing their stream by making it autoplay, I do have a right to view it.

Don't want the stream visible? Don't push it on me.

Additionally, no one has said that they cant grab my IP or any other data that is personally volunteered.

Sione, if the parcel has a stream and it's not being forced via a media call, does the patch display the stream anyways? Or does it just display 'autoplay' streams?
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:06 AM   #4039 (permalink)
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Sione, if the parcel has a stream and it's not being forced via a media call, does the patch display the stream anyways? Or does it just display 'autoplay' streams?
All.

EDIT: It will intercept autoplay streams when they attempt to load. If you have autoplay off and press the play button it will intercept it also. But only when you press the play button. So basically anytime your viewer would have normally started playing something, instead of playing it, it sends it to the patch for checking. If you have media turned off you will get nothing.

Last edited by Sione; 02-26-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:07 AM   #4040 (permalink)
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if the parcel has a stream and it's not being forced via a media call, does the patch display the stream anyways? Or does it just display 'autoplay' streams?
Sione's patch displays any stream the viewer starts to play, before it plays it.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:15 AM   #4041 (permalink)
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Will the privacy intruder league at LL ban people for using a viewer that shows the url?

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Old 02-26-2011, 11:15 AM   #4042 (permalink)
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Holy non-stop posting... took a nap and there's 12 *pages* of new posts.

I give up. I don't read fast enough to follow this anymore. I'm not even sure I trust the official viewer at the moment. Ultimately, I really don't like the culture this undoubtedly bringing to the grid.

"Hi welcome to my club/shop/whatever. Assume the position."
"What?"

"You know, the alt background check. Hit 'consent' or I can't let you in."
"Excuse me? What does that have to do with anything?"

"Well, we've had problems with griefers, I want to make sure you're not one."
"And thinking you know my alts will really tell you whether or not I'll behave in your shop/club whatever?"

"Yes."
"Well, I don't consent."

"Oh, that's unfortunate, I don't want you on my land if you can't trust me with knowing your alts."
"Oh yeah? Fuck you. I don't trust YOU enough to tell you the names my alts, or if I have any at all."

"Oh my, well, that's rude..."
"Not as rude as demanding I allow you to view my PERSONAL INFORMATION. That's my own fucking business, not yours."

"Oh MY! You ARE a griefer, I'm gonna ban and eject you!"
"Oh nooo! Please don't, I so desperately wanted to experience your... over-hyped club/shop/whatever."

"Asshole!"
"Douche!"
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:18 AM   #4043 (permalink)
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But it's a media call that's being forced onto the viewer. The stream owner is pushing that onto me. The data scraping is being pushed onto the viewer. Frankly if someone is pushing their stream by making it autoplay, I do have a right to view it.

Don't want the stream visible? Don't push it on me.
It's not being pushed on you. It's being offered. You can choose not to play it.

And it's your visit that's initiating the process, not the offering of a music stream.

You need to see the URL before you play it? Fine. I want to see your IP address before I let you see it. Don't like those conditions? You're the visitor, not me.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:20 AM   #4044 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sione View Post
All.

EDIT: It will intercept autoplay streams when they attempt to load. If you have autoplay off and press the play button it will intercept it also. But only when you press the play button. So basically anytime your viewer would have normally started playing something, instead of playing it, it sends it to the patch for checking. If you have media turned off you will get nothing.
I still don't have a problem with that. There are a number of ways to discover a stream and this is something voluntarily placed. Unlike the datascraping it detects.

And since it's truncated, it can't be used to pirate someone's music stream.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:22 AM   #4045 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Anya Ristow View Post
It's not being pushed on you. It's being offered. You can choose not to play it.

And it's your visit that's initiating the process, not the offering of a music stream.

You need to see the URL before you play it? Fine. I want to see your IP address before I let you see it. Don't like those conditions? You're the visitor, not me.
apples & oranges
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:22 AM   #4046 (permalink)
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??

Who said there was?
bronxelf, among others. This whole subthread was about Linden Lab's apparent interest in merging SL and FB.

Quote:
Why are you arguing with me about this?
Heck if I know. I thought you were trying to make a point that actually made sense in context of the ongoing discussion. Pardon me.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:24 AM   #4047 (permalink)
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bronxelf, among others. This whole subthread was about Linden Lab's apparent interest in merging SL and FB.
No, it wasn't. You started talking about some tangent that nobody was discussing, then started throwing stuff at me that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about.

Sometimes, Argent, I wonder what drugs you're on, then I wonder why you're so unable to admit you're on drugs even when it's apparent from the way you're on SLU ewioktfleafnh;kashghsdgdsmlnf,dsgthjsdngmv sdjklklklvms
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:27 AM   #4048 (permalink)
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And almost noone running a stream for their club actually sees that info.
Well, almost nobody looks. But most of them have access to logs, and timestamps, if they're interested. And that's all they need.

Ironically, even without Sione's patch, there are probably already more people looking at your domain in their firewall/proxy logs or in their parcel info (with Admin options enabled) than are running operations like Redzone. What you think you're trying to protect is hopelessly compromised.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:29 AM   #4049 (permalink)
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You don't need a patch to do that.
True. I started this line of thinking in response to your suggesting that people keep up with a blacklist by maintaining it themselves, by copying it from websites. Is that how your patch will work, or will it be a subscription kind of thing?
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:32 AM   #4050 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Anya Ristow View Post
It's not being pushed on you. It's being offered. You can choose not to play it.

And it's your visit that's initiating the process, not the offering of a music stream.

You need to see the URL before you play it? Fine. I want to see your IP address before I let you see it. Don't like those conditions? You're the visitor, not me.
Huh? I mean, huh??

You can decide not to stream content to a specific IP address if you want, but you can't hide the URL.

Incidentally, this bit about a visit initiating the process: you don't get to hide behind the front door with a shotgun and shoot every Girl Scout who knocks. Attractive nuisance and all that.
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