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Old 02-26-2011, 07:08 AM   #3901 (permalink)
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I've been lurking here for a couple days and trying to get caught up on this thread. I'm undecided about this issue, but I do have a concern. I see that many of you who are up in arms about the alleged datamining in RZ also use a TPV. IMO it discredits the argument when some are so willing to allow a TPV to potentially do the same thing as RZ is accused of doing.

Yes, I do realize that LL puts some TPVs on their directory, but they also have this nice little disclaimer:



I'm not trying to flame or troll (sorry if it comes out that way) I just wonder why some are not as concerned about TPVs as they are the RZ issue. Just my 2 cents
yes. And the emerald viewer was destroyed/banned for doing things they should not have too.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:08 AM   #3902 (permalink)
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Yes, on their forum..they initially posted a few weeks back how to hide it from GreenZone, but then they got upset that GreenZone had put out a newer version which would detect it. That was a few GreenZone versions ago.

This latest screenshot is from 2/20, so maybe they found a way for it to stick.
The instructions posted here were missing an important step but I'm not going to elaborate because it's useful information.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:09 AM   #3903 (permalink)
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I've been lurking here for a couple days and trying to get caught up on this thread. I'm undecided about this issue, but I do have a concern. I see that many of you who are up in arms about the alleged datamining in RZ also use a TPV. IMO it discredits the argument when some are so willing to allow a TPV to potentially do the same thing as RZ is accused of doing.

Yes, I do realize that LL puts some TPVs on their directory, but they also have this nice little disclaimer:



I'm not trying to flame or troll (sorry if it comes out that way) I just wonder why some are not as concerned about TPVs as they are the RZ issue. Just my 2 cents
Most of the TPVs don't "datamine" anything more than usage metrics.

Certainly none of them are going around matching accounts to alts and disclosing that in a public database.

Also, there is no "alleged" datamining. That's what the entire point of the product is. It's explicitly stated as such. I'm not sure how you can call it "alleged" when his sales page underscores that the entire product, in explicit terms, is solely about linking alt account.

If Phoenix or other viewers were doing something like RedZone, there would be a similar degree of outrage. It was the Emerald developers using the viewer inappropriately to attack a critic's website that ended up causing that viewer's downfall.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:11 AM   #3904 (permalink)
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What are TPV's datamining now? Are they being used now to match avatars with their alts? Darn... O_o *sad day for avatars* T_T
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:12 AM   #3905 (permalink)
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Most of the TPVs don't "datamine" anything more than usage metrics.

Certainly none of them are going around matching accounts to alts and disclosing that in a public database.

Also, there is no "alleged" datamining. That's what the entire point of the product is. It's explicitly stated as such. I'm not sure how you can call it "alleged" when his sales page underscores that the entire product, in explicit terms, is solely about linking alt account.

If Phoenix or other viewers were doing something like RedZone, there would be a similar degree of outrage. It was the Emerald developers using the viewer inappropriately to attack a critic's website that ended up causing that viewer's downfall.
But can you guarantee they don't? What about updates? LL doesn't have to check those AFAIK, though I could be wrong. Please correct me if TPVs have to submit each update to LL.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:13 AM   #3906 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to flame or troll (sorry if it comes out that way) I just wonder why some are not as concerned about TPVs as they are the RZ issue. Just my 2 cents
Because TPV developers have already learned that lesson. Were you around for the Emerald debacle?
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:14 AM   #3907 (permalink)
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Because TPV developers have already learned that lesson. Were you around for the Emerald debacle?
Indeed I was, which is why I'll never trust a TPV, all it takes is one person to put something in one update...
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #3908 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mad Mouse View Post
I've been lurking here for a couple days and trying to get caught up on this thread. I'm undecided about this issue, but I do have a concern. I see that many of you who are up in arms about the alleged datamining in RZ also use a TPV. IMO it discredits the argument when some are so willing to allow a TPV to potentially do the same thing as RZ is accused of doing.

Yes, I do realize that LL puts some TPVs on their directory, but they also have this nice little disclaimer:



I'm not trying to flame or troll (sorry if it comes out that way) I just wonder why some are not as concerned about TPVs as they are the RZ issue. Just my 2 cents
Which TPV do you say has been collecting data about me and then using it to compile what purport to be lists of my alts and selling at $US16 or so, no questions asked, an apparatus to retrieve this information?

Or do you say that it's in some way inconsistent to be considerably more concerned about actual and demonstrable misconduct by someone who has given me every reason to distrust him than am I about the potential for some hypothetical misconduct by people whom, rightly or wrongly, I do trust?
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #3909 (permalink)
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Most FB fans started with posting real information because that's how they find one another, and are rather hostile toward people who create fake or alt accounts because it's considered cheating on their games.
They are also perfectly aware that games even superficially similar to SL, like Warcraft, don't work that way. Many of them play Warcraft without having a conniption fit about people not REALLY being Thud Rockcrusher. So this is a complete red herring.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #3910 (permalink)
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But can you guarantee they don't? What about updates? LL doesn't have to check those AFAIK, though I could be wrong. Please correct me if TPVs have to submit each update to LL.
I don't have to make that guarantee.

You do have to prove they already are, however, as that's a much larger accusation to make.

If you can't prove that they are, while numerous examples have demonstrated that they aren't -- or were rightly smacked when they did -- then I fail to see what using a third party viewer has to do with disliking an asshole hawking a product that exposes account information.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:16 AM   #3911 (permalink)
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But can you guarantee they don't? What about updates? LL doesn't have to check those AFAIK, though I could be wrong. Please correct me if TPVs have to submit each update to LL.
Sorry but your attempt to cast aspersions upon the legitimate third party viewer developer teams and their users has failed. There are plenty of eyes on the code.

However, were you to cast your aspersions upon illegal counterfeiting viewers then they might be mining anything at all.

And you could always ask LL why they need the remote control libraries in the LL client.

(I will continue to use grammatically correct obscure words just to annoy Argent for a while)
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:17 AM   #3912 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mad Mouse View Post
I've been lurking here for a couple days and trying to get caught up on this thread. I'm undecided about this issue, but I do have a concern. I see that many of you who are up in arms about the alleged datamining in RZ also use a TPV. IMO it discredits the argument when some are so willing to allow a TPV to potentially do the same thing as RZ is accused of doing.
Hi there Mad Mouse - and welcome to SLU. With all these things it is a matter of trust. Many of the TPV makers have shown themselves to be trustworthy, and their code is readily available to pull apart and check, in case you don't believe them. And there are plenty of people around who would be happy to blow the whistle on them if they weren't clean. I do not know of any TPV that harvests IPs other than as a way of making it run properly - they certainly have no intention of linking accounts with that information.

When we had the Emerald affair that was quickly exposed on here. In a way SLU is pretty good at 'outing' the suspicious activities of others - if you want to see what the Redzone owner is like I would recommend visiting his forum.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:18 AM   #3913 (permalink)
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Indeed I was, which is why I'll never trust a TPV, all it takes is one person to put something in one update...
Then you shouldn't trust any open source code, including Viewer 2. Phoenix gets just as much outside vetting as Viewer 2 does. Want to see just what's in Phoenix? Or Firestorm? Head on over to the repository and knock yourself out.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:20 AM   #3914 (permalink)
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Most FB fans started with posting real information because that's how they find one another, and are rather hostile toward people who create fake or alt accounts because it's considered cheating on their games. So far SLers who created accounts for their avatars are sliding through with their own sub-communities, but the majority of FB users will not hesitate to report accounts they believe to be fake and get them banned. This is a direct contrast to the privilege of anonymity SL offers. Thus a balance has to be attained between those who want total privacy versus those who believe arguing with their SO or parents in a public forum is just daily life on the Web.
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They are also perfectly aware that games even superficially similar to SL, like Warcraft, don't work that way. Many of them play Warcraft without having a conniption fit about people not REALLY being Thud Rockcrusher. So this is a complete red herring.
It was, and might still be, a Facebook terms of service violation to register an account under something other than your real name. They backed off of pseudonyms due to a number of high-profile suspensions involving artists losing their official accounts because they didn't register them under the name on their birth certificate, but they may still have a prohibition against registering your SL or video game character.

Facebook is, after all, a real life social network, and I don't entirely understand the point of registering it under a virtual identity. But given that the only people I have added on my list are SLers I've met in real life, real life friends and real life coworkers, I have an obvious bias towards keeping that aspect "real." There's numerous other social networks with much more popularity that cater towards those who want a myspace page for their SL account.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:21 AM   #3915 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi View Post
Hi there Mad Mouse - and welcome to SLU. With all these things it is a matter of trust. Many of the TPV makers have shown themselves to be trustworthy, and their code is readily available to pull apart and check, in case you don't believe them. And there are plenty of people around who would be happy to blow the whistle on them if they weren't clean. I do not know of any TPV that harvests IPs other than as a way of making it run properly - they certainly have no intention of linking accounts with that information.

When we had the Emerald affair that was quickly exposed on here. In a way SLU is pretty good at 'outing' the suspicious activities of others - if you want to see what the Redzone owner is like I would recommend visiting his forum.
Ty Hitomi for answering me in a sensible, polite way. I do have concerns about the matching of IPs, but can someone prove this list is stored in a database somewhere for the creator to do whatever with? AFAIK users don't have access to alt names anymore.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:21 AM   #3916 (permalink)
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I had the same question over in this thread. According to Lloyd, if you have RedZone blocked in your Hosts file, there won't be any popups, as the server never gets to make the request. Innula's posted a screenshot there showing it working.
That doesn't make any sense. The popup should operate on the URL delivered by SL, before any attempt is made to look the server up in the hosts file.

If it doesn't work that way, the popup is ineffective.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:21 AM   #3917 (permalink)
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Then you shouldn't trust any open source code, including Viewer 2. Phoenix gets just as much outside vetting as Viewer 2 does. Want to see just what's in Phoenix? Or Firestorm? Head on over to the repository and knock yourself out.
I don't use V2 either ^^ hate it
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:22 AM   #3918 (permalink)
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But can you guarantee they don't? What about updates? LL doesn't have to check those AFAIK, though I could be wrong. Please correct me if TPVs have to submit each update to LL.
When you use a TPV you are making a conscious decision to use a 3rd party product based on the fact that there may be risk.

When you TP in to a sim you are stepping on to a LL server under the pretence that it is safe to do so, you will be given suitable warning that something untoward may be going on and your safety is a priority concern for LL.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:23 AM   #3919 (permalink)
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Then you shouldn't trust any open source code, including Viewer 2. Phoenix gets just as much outside vetting as Viewer 2 does. Want to see just what's in Phoenix? Or Firestorm? Head on over to the repository and knock yourself out.
Probably more Tonya - I know I can't believe some of the xml changes that get through in Viewer 2.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:24 AM   #3920 (permalink)
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Then you shouldn't trust any open source code, including Viewer 2. Phoenix gets just as much outside vetting as Viewer 2 does. Want to see just what's in Phoenix? Or Firestorm? Head on over to the repository and knock yourself out.
While Phoenix might have as many eyes looking at its code as Viewer 2, it's specious to claim that it gets the same level of vetting.

What official Linden Lab employees are vetting Phoenix' code in an official capacity as an employee of LL as part of their normal day-to-day role with the company?

Note, if the answer to that question is anything other than an actual name -- and especially not "lols there are but I'm not allowed to say" -- then the answer is actually "no one" and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise for advertising purposes.

Now that's not to say that I don't believe Phoenix is trustworthy, but you and Emerald both have a real serious issue with misrepresentative wiggle words that you honestly need to knock off on.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:25 AM   #3921 (permalink)
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Ty Hitomi for answering me in a sensible, polite way. I do have concerns about the matching of IPs, but can someone prove this list is stored in a database somewhere for the creator to do whatever with? AFAIK users don't have access to alt names anymore.
....are you serious?

They did for over a year up until two days ago.

Thank you for joining this thread, hopefully you can catch up.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:27 AM   #3922 (permalink)
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I think they'd have done this long ago if not for two, possibly three things.

1. He isn't without resources. He has made a fair bit of change. The Lab doesn't want the publicity of a court case right now, even if they're in the right.

2. This is really, really bad timing. They're turning the forums over to Lithium, primarily (and with the greatest of irony) because that incorporates social media widgets, to which there's no opting out of that (ta da!) scrape data. GOTO point 1.

3. We don't actually know what that database contains. It might not contain IP/USERNAME account matches only. We do not know what is in there. It may be more volatile than we think- in which case, GOTO 10 GOTO 20.
Wouldn't never as much as going to the site after they get moved over constitute an "opt out"?
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:27 AM   #3923 (permalink)
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That doesn't make any sense. The popup should operate on the URL delivered by SL, before any attempt is made to look the server up in the hosts file.

If it doesn't work that way, the popup is ineffective.
The popup isn't a viewer component, I thought. It's just a component of RedZone itself.

I would think having it pop up when the URL was delivered would require deeper interaction than scripts get.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:27 AM   #3924 (permalink)
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Ty Hitomi for answering me in a sensible, polite way. I do have concerns about the matching of IPs, but can someone prove this list is stored in a database somewhere for the creator to do whatever with? AFAIK users don't have access to alt names anymore.
Do you know anything about php and mysql?
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:28 AM   #3925 (permalink)
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Quote:
but can someone prove this list is stored in a database somewhere for the creator to do whatever with?

Further, there has never been any question that the database is in zFire's hands on his own personal server (not on the Lab's servers in any way). Anyone here will tell you that, and zFire will gladly tell you that- it's his ace in the hole after all. He's already threatened (and screencaps are plentiful) to post the database outside of LL's control and charge a fee for *anyone* to access it, if the Lab doesn't do as he wishes.
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Phoenix media & audio security filter | Living in the Modem World This thread Refback 02-20-2011 05:40 PM
Privacy War in SL « Acoustic Alchemy in Second Life This thread Pingback 02-20-2011 01:19 PM
Redzone in Second Life is an Invasion of Privacy « Chat with Nadia This thread Pingback 02-19-2011 09:00 PM
BDSM Institute - Second Life - Ban RedZone This thread Refback 02-19-2011 10:03 AM
The Green Zone - MOOLTO This thread Refback 02-19-2011 07:31 AM
Spies, Lies & Cold Hard Cash: Second Life Erupts In a War Over Privacy - Search Engine Watch (SEW) This thread Refback 02-18-2011 08:21 PM
Why Goodbye? « Grimalkin Workshop This thread Refback 02-16-2011 05:55 PM
RedZone – security, scam, or scraping? | Living in the Modem World This thread Refback 02-15-2011 08:05 AM
GreenZone - More action we can take. This thread Refback 02-15-2011 04:17 AM
50L Friday… noobs it up 08 Tiny Bird ? The Rumor This thread Refback 02-11-2011 05:03 PM
My Banned RedZone Post @ in marx mode: the second life of marx dudek Post #442 Pingback 02-09-2011 06:48 PM