Logo

Lance Corrimal · 02-25-2011, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceka Cianci

Sharing

... harvesting that data is still allowed, as long as you "ask nicely" before you disclose?

and how do you "ask nicely"? wouldn't you have to ask every single avatar of a list ["a", "b", "c"] before you "disclose" that according to your "intellicence", b and c are alts of a?

Ann Otoole · 02-25-2011, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

There are Lindens willing to go to bat for us.

Name them.
Oh you can't. Because they don't exist.

**Psyke Phaeton** · 02-25-2011, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal

... harvesting that data is still allowed, as long as you "ask nicely" before you disclose?

Harvesting data is not wrong. Tyche isn't wrong for sampling regions. Collecting IP addresses is not wrong (Web servers log access as a normal procedure). Collecting names is creepy but not actually wrong. Matching IPs and names on your own computer is outside of SL's jurisdiction (report it to the local authorities if that is illegal). Reporting the results of IP/name matching within SL is within SLs jurisdiction.

Reporting alt matches outside of SL would be....? Probably a real life legal matter.

I recall LL getting legally burned when they banned someone and he sued and got compensated for his lost inventory. LL has to play by the rules of the law.

I am sure they are stupid enough to hang themselves. It's so tempting to just keep pushing, they can't stop...

**bronxelf** · 02-25-2011, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal

... harvesting that data is still allowed, as long as you "ask nicely" before you disclose?

and how do you "ask nicely"? wouldn't you have to ask every single avatar of a list ["a", "b", "c"] before you "disclose" that according to your "intellicence", b and c are alts of a?

Bigger issue than that. Since zFire thinks that "all people living in the same house" being the same account is a feature, not a bug... What happens when one of the people in the house are *teenagers*, below the age of 18, and he outs *their* accounts?

Ann Otoole · 02-25-2011, 02:51 AM

Some people just can't see the issue with LL.

**Psyke Phaeton** · 02-25-2011, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

Name them.
Oh you can't. Because they don't exist.

I can but I would do it in IMs. However I am quite certain that you are not open to new perspectives and would dismiss anything I said. Instead I will say LL is not of one mind, they have diverse opinions and lack the power, at times, to act on those opinions.

How this will all turn out is still up in the air. You might be right but it is a bit early to assume that.

Sling Trebuchet · 02-25-2011, 02:53 AM

The bit that got cut from Dusan's interview
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Virtual Dialogues: My Conversation with Rod Humble, CEO of Linden Lab

Quote:

See, there’s the me who speaks to journalists and says things like “People don’t want other people to connect the dots from their avatar to their real life person – or even, for that matter, to an alt. One of the ethical obligations we have is to protect people’s privacy.” and that’s an identity that I am trying to establish

And there’s the me who is CEO of a company that sees a gross invasion privacy but that doesn’t have the principles or ethics to call it.

I don’t want those separate identities to mix up. It’s not appropriate.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-25-2011, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theia Magic

Here's zFire's newest idea, per the member's forums:

" I will make more stand alone objects, free for zRZ owners, that include auto-consent functions if they remain in the sim 60 seconds or longer after being given a notice that they must leave within 60 seconds or will be considered as accepting consent. 60 seconds is more then enough time."

"auto consent"?

Oh, he's trying all the old "opt out is opt in" spammer tricks, is he?

No, zFire, you can't do that. If you don't ask every alleged alt and they all agree, explicitly, you don't have consent.

**Psyke Phaeton** · 02-25-2011, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sling Trebuchet

The bit that got cut from Dusan's interview
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Virtual Dialogues: My Conversation with Rod Humble, CEO of Linden Lab

Are you going to post a reply on that page mentioning this?

Argent Stonecutter · 02-25-2011, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rival Destiny

what about the existing database of alts & the use of the word 'retroactive' in opting out?

Are all those people that have been already scanned, suppose to contact this nimrod & opt out?

I don't think he's asking anyone "consent to be scanned".

He's asking "consent to disclose the information".

That way he doesn't think he needs to discard the database.

Lance Corrimal · 02-25-2011, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Otoole

then get on twitter and tell @rodvik how you feel so he can't hide it.

Everyone needs to flood twitter with messages to @rodvik and @secondlife expressing disgust at their support for privacy invasion that destroys the value of Second Life®

am i the only one who thinks the old CS was actually the better version?

in the old CS:
disclosing information about others beyond what's in their profile = not allowed.

in the new CS:
disclosing information about others beyond what's in their profile without consent = not allowed.

So all that's needed is "consent"... any stupid action could be considered "consent".

**Samantha Poindexter** · 02-25-2011, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal

wouldn't you have to ask every single avatar of a list ["a", "b", "c"] before you "disclose" that according to your "intellicence", b and c are alts of a?

You'd think, but it's clear that zFire isn't interpreting it that way. For instance:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zFire Xue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrissy

Let ma ask the following .. what if one of the accounts is a false link ?
Lets say i have a friend using the same computer . His accounts will be considdered my alts . so now if he gives consent
all my alts will be revealed as well . in that case i would write an abuse report to LL because my alts would have n been revealed without my consent

Did you Consent for your friend to use your computer, and Consent for him to grant Consent on your behalf also? If not, perhaps you should double check with who you allow to use your computer. I question people who say "It wasn't me! It was 'my friend' who I let use my account, computer, password, etc".

It will never be enough for GZ, what is the point of a background check if they are going to be selective about the information in the background check? Accept or do not accept, that is my final answer.

At some point, he's gonna run out of final answers...

(Source [the proxy I'm using doesn't allow hotlinks; use this with your own]: zRZ Working with LL, and helping with new Policy. )

**bronxelf** · 02-25-2011, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal

am i the only one who thinks the old CS was actually the better version?

in the old CS:
disclosing information about others beyond what's in their profile = not allowed.

in the new CS:
disclosing information about others beyond what's in their profile without consent = not allowed.

So all that's needed is "consent"... any stupid action could be considered "consent".

Aaaaactually, no. See, "consent" and "implied consent" (and for that matter, "express written consent") have legal meanings that he can't get around. Any contract lawyer worth a tin damn would tell him that in half a second, but he's not smart enough to consult one.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-25-2011, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

This is contrary to the Lab's overall financial interest. It would require reworking of TOS 4.3 to an extent that *all* of their long range plans would need to be scrapped.

Not happening.

Which long range plans would be in jeopardy?

**bronxelf** · 02-25-2011, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samantha Poindexter

You'd think, but it's clear that zFire isn't interpreting it that way. For instance:

At some point, he's gonna run out of final answers...

(Source [the proxy I'm using doesn't allow hotlinks; use this with your own]: zRZ Working with LL, and helping with new Policy. )

WOW.

This kid needs to talk to a contract attorney.

Wait, you know what? Fuck it, I hope he doesn't. The legal avalanche will be *EPIC*.

**bronxelf** · 02-25-2011, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter

Which long range plans would be in jeopardy?

Funny you should ask, I was JUST writing about that.

4.3 overall protects the Lab against legal liability for the actions of 3rd parties. But that's not all it does. In this case, Prokofy is right. 4.3 allows 3rd parties to harvest data AT ALL. The Lab doesn't want to close that hole.

Look at what's going on with the forums. The new software is being put into place specifically to add those facebook and twitter widgets. I've been *saying this for months*- the reason they can't change the TOS to stop data harvesting from third parties is that that would *close their ability to partner with facebook*, which is the direction they've been moving in for months now. Facebook is (almost primarily) a DATA HARVESTING site.

zFire and his little, busted piece of shit snooper is just a thorn in their side, coming along at a very, very bad time. They can starve him out (and they will- you watch). But they cannot close this hole or they blow their own long term partnership plans with larger social networks.

Innula Zenovka · 02-25-2011, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samantha Poindexter

You'd think, but it's clear that zFire isn't interpreting it that way. For instance:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zFire Xue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissy
Let ma ask the following .. what if one of the accounts is a false link ?
Lets say i have a friend using the same computer . His accounts will be considdered my alts . so now if he gives consent
all my alts will be revealed as well . in that case i would write an abuse report to LL because my alts would have n been revealed without my consent

Did you Consent for your friend to use your computer, and Consent for him to grant Consent on your behalf also? If not, perhaps you should double check with who you allow to use your computer. I question people who say "It wasn't me! It was 'my friend' who I let use my account, computer, password, etc".

It will never be enough for GZ, what is the point of a background check if they are going to be selective about the information in the background check? Accept or do not accept, that is my final answer.

At some point, he's gonna run out of final answers...

(Source [the proxy I'm using doesn't allow hotlinks; use this with your own]: zRZ Working with LL, and helping with new Policy. )

OK. John and Mary are a couple in RL. Each has an SL account. We know from zFire's website that that this will lead to a false matching, though he claims this is a feature rather than a bug.

Be that is it may, how can anyone take for granted Mary's consent for the false information that she is John's alt being published? John might be OK with it. John might not even be aware that Mary's account will be linked to his when he consents to the "background check". But that's nothing to do with anything.

John and Mary are two separate people in RL, owning two different accounts, and it seems to me pretty obvious that zFire can't safely take it for granted that John speaks for Mary in all matters. ZFire has to ask her separately, or so it seems to me.

**Cristiano** · 02-25-2011, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

Look at what's going on with the forums. The new software is being put into place specifically to add those facebook and twitter widgets. I've been *saying this for months*- the reason they can't change the TOS to stop data harvesting from third parties is that that would *close their ability to partner with facebook*, which is the direction they've been moving in for months now. Facebook is (almost primarily) a DATA HARVESTING site.

When I found out how much data the Facebook Like button was tracking even if you did not click on it, I immediately removed it from SLU. It is scary how pervasive it has become.

**bronxelf** · 02-25-2011, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka

OK. John and Mary are a couple in RL. Each has an SL account. We know from zFire's website that that this will lead to a false matching, though he claims this is a feature rather than a bug.

Be that is it may, how can anyone take for granted Mary's consent for the false information that she is John's alt being published? John might be OK with it. John might not even be aware that Mary's account will be linked to his when he consents to the "background check". But that's nothing to do with anything.

John and Mary are two separate people in RL, owning two different accounts, and it seems to me pretty obvious that zFire can't safely take it for granted that John speaks for Mary in all matters. ZFire has to ask her separately, or so it seems to me.

Add in that John and Mary have a daughter, also in sl, named Janet. This gets *REAL* interesting then.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-25-2011, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal

wouldn't you have to ask every single avatar of a list ["a", "b", "c"] before you "disclose" that according to your "intellicence", b and c are alts of a?

Yes, you absolutely would. If you were interested in actually conforming to the ToS.

**Jolene Benoir** · 02-25-2011, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya Ristow

Why would Jane even be in the system if she didn't consent? By both Argent and Joe consenting, aren't you only exposing Argent and Joe? It'd still be wrong info if it connected the three of you, but it'd take consent from all three, wouldn't it?

Because it is STILL scanning and entering into the database anyone who enters a sim that is using RedZone.

Unfortunately, they only have to ask for consent to see your alts, not to scan you. He's apparently been given the green light by LL to continue his harvesting, as well as keep his past harvesting.

So, it connects User A to User B, C, D, and E....But really YOUR only alt is User B. The database is compromised by shared ips. By consenting to reveal your alts, you are now revealing Users C, D, and E.

Argent Stonecutter · 02-25-2011, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

the reason they can't change the TOS to stop data harvesting from third parties is that that would *close their ability to partner with facebook*

They'd be better off partnering with Microsoft, and we know how well that works.

pancake · 02-25-2011, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxelf

Bigger issue than that. Since zFire thinks that "all people living in the same house" being the same account is a feature, not a bug... What happens when one of the people in the house are *teenagers*, below the age of 18, and he outs *their* accounts?

1000X yes.

Underage users in same household is the exact reason this has hit me so hard and why I've spent so much time researching. I can never undo the damage I've done to my retinas. From now on I may have to skip any post that has the word club in it.

I was at first excited to hear that changes were being made, but unless I'm missing something I still see nothing in these changes that makes me feel any more comfortable about allowing my teen on the grid.

**Psyke Phaeton** · 02-25-2011, 03:37 AM

Gathering data from SL is not wrong. Tyche gathers data, our clients gather data. We even have a database in our cache. The right or wrong begins after the data is gathered, with how it gets used.

Our cache has all the textures needed to help "copybot" items. The cache is not evil. How we, humans, use it is what decides right and wrong.

Jopsy Pendragon · 02-25-2011, 03:42 AM

I do like the "With consent" addition to the CS. If I say "Hey, my RL name is John, everyone knows... but no one uses it." then I've given consent, it's in the public and fair game for gossip, even if it's not in my 1st life profile...

There will be sufficient cases where false positive will break the 'consent' work-around they think they have. For example:

A and B are behind the same firewall in a dorm/cafe/workplace, and look like they're from the same IP.
A has consented.
B has refused consent, or never consented.
A CANNOT consent for B.
But redzone will still list A as one of B's (or vice versa) alts anyway... blatently violating the new CS.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/47314-zf-redzone-disclosure-secondlife-alts.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
Dusan Writer’s Metaverse » Virtual Dialogues: My Conversation with Rod Humble, CEO of Linden Lab	This thread	Refback	03-06-2011 04:38 PM
Second Life Vs RedZone Saga: The Symptoms & The Cure - Search Engine Watch (SEW)	This thread	Refback	03-04-2011 08:23 PM
How Do We Know What is a Suspicious URL? « no2redzone	This thread	Pingback	03-04-2011 12:22 PM
zFire Xue Interview: RedZone is not Spyware \| The Alphaville Herald	This thread	Refback	03-04-2011 12:06 AM
WHAT IS THIS CRAP? » The First Five Things	This thread	Refback	03-03-2011 06:33 PM
Second Life - Forum, Community, Portal - Aw: Redzone, Greenzone und Alt-Detektoren - Forum fuer Second Life	This thread	Refback	03-03-2011 11:17 AM
Submit to Probe or be Denied « Unique Needs!	Post #1	Pingback	03-02-2011 10:42 PM
SL Chic Critique	This thread	Refback	03-02-2011 06:11 PM
Alli&Ali Policy on RedZone and Similar Tools	This thread	Trackback:	03-02-2011 12:08 PM
The Green Zone - MOOLTO	This thread	Refback	03-02-2011 12:03 PM
RedZone-Stats \| Flickr - Photo Sharing!	This thread	Refback	03-01-2011 06:10 PM
Boo's Bits Blog	This thread	Refback	03-01-2011 02:24 PM
RedZone Circles the Drain \| The Alphaville Herald	This thread	Refback	02-27-2011 07:10 PM
Reference Links for Redzone - mickeyetc's posterous	This thread	Refback	02-27-2011 02:26 PM
Is Vanity Skin Fair Harvesting Avatar Data For zF RedZone \| in2ndLife	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 10:13 PM
“Un”Fair « The SLA Review	This thread	Pingback	02-26-2011 06:28 PM
The Second Life Builder	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 06:19 PM
SecondLife erupts in outright war « ladysakai	This thread	Pingback	02-26-2011 04:54 PM
Anonymity and the myth therein. \| Puitia's party.	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 04:50 PM
The Bitter Harvest: The Redzone Saga Continues (Linden Lab Has a Problem on Its Hands) - Search Engine Watch (SEW)	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 01:49 PM
The # secondlife Daily, all articles	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 12:25 PM
SL Offworld Forum -> Community Standards change	This thread	Refback	02-26-2011 02:02 AM
Kabalyero in RedZone, All Your Alts Belong To Us \| Kabalyero	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 08:25 PM
Protection Racket « Unique Needs!	Post #3602	Pingback	02-25-2011 06:42 PM
RedZone Privacy Issues Develop – Review	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 04:33 PM
Second Life Left Unity: Son of Redzone: How to Protect Your Privacy, Why You Still NEED to Protect It, and Why the Landed Gentry Are So Annoyed at You.	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 12:29 PM
RedZone HUD Forced To Ask to Reveal Alt Accounts \| The Alphaville Herald	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 09:15 AM
SL Offworld Forum -> Community Standards change	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 08:34 AM
Change To Second Life Terms of Service – RedZone Alt Outing No More « no2redzone	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 04:56 AM
SL Offworld Forum -> Community Standards change	This thread	Refback	02-25-2011 02:06 AM
Community Standards changes toothless without common sense » Ciaran Laval	Post #2830	Pingback	02-24-2011 04:30 PM
The Train Wreck Love Life	This thread	Refback	02-23-2011 03:00 PM
A Recap of Last Week « no2redzone	This thread	Refback	02-21-2011 05:43 AM
Phoenix media & audio security filter \| Living in the Modem World	This thread	Refback	02-20-2011 05:40 PM
Privacy War in SL « Acoustic Alchemy in Second Life	This thread	Pingback	02-20-2011 01:19 PM
Redzone in Second Life is an Invasion of Privacy « Chat with Nadia	This thread	Pingback	02-19-2011 09:00 PM
BDSM Institute - Second Life - Ban RedZone	This thread	Refback	02-19-2011 10:03 AM
The Green Zone - MOOLTO	This thread	Refback	02-19-2011 07:31 AM
Spies, Lies & Cold Hard Cash: Second Life Erupts In a War Over Privacy - Search Engine Watch (SEW)	This thread	Refback	02-18-2011 08:21 PM
Why Goodbye? « Grimalkin Workshop	This thread	Refback	02-16-2011 05:55 PM
RedZone – security, scam, or scraping? \| Living in the Modem World	This thread	Refback	02-15-2011 08:05 AM
GreenZone - More action we can take.	This thread	Refback	02-15-2011 04:17 AM
50L Friday… noobs it up 08 Tiny Bird ? The Rumor	This thread	Refback	02-11-2011 05:03 PM
My Banned RedZone Post @ in marx mode: the second life of marx dudek	Post #442	Pingback	02-09-2011 06:48 PM

02-25-2011, 02:51 AM	#3355 (permalink)
Ann Otoole Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 16,374	Some people just can't see the issue with LL.

02-25-2011, 03:37 AM	#3374 (permalink)
Psyke Phaeton Senior Member *SLU Supporter* Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 9,064 SL Join Date: 12-Oct-2003 Business: PDS HomeSecurity™ Orb - Security Orbs since 2004 Client: Viewer 3 Blog Entries: 4	Gathering data from SL is not wrong. Tyche gathers data, our clients gather data. We even have a database in our cache. The right or wrong begins after the data is gathered, with how it gets used. Our cache has all the textures needed to help "copybot" items. The cache is not evil. How we, humans, use it is what decides right and wrong.

02-25-2011, 03:42 AM	#3375 (permalink)
Jopsy Pendragon Particle Laboratory Elf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hillcrest, San Diego, USA Posts: 5,562 My Mood: SL Join Date: Jan 15 2004 Business: Light Sorcery	I do like the "With consent" addition to the CS. If I say "Hey, my RL name is John, everyone knows... but no one uses it." then I've given consent, it's in the public and fair game for gossip, even if it's not in my 1st life profile... There will be sufficient cases where false positive will break the 'consent' work-around they think they have. For example: A and B are behind the same firewall in a dorm/cafe/workplace, and look like they're from the same IP. A has consented. B has refused consent, or never consented. A *CANNOT* consent for B. But redzone will still list A as one of B's (or vice versa) alts anyway... blatently violating the new CS.

Logo

Site Navigation