Hypatia Callisto

Eh, I don't think they are all evil. But I think they can do risky things, without foresight for how risky their behavior is, and I would like to see risky behavior curtailed, as it impacts other people.

I'd like to see the LindeX continue looking like it is right now, in a much more stable condition. I'd like to see LL able to profit from the LindeX in a more reliable way.

Maybe the storage fees on total amount held should be charged to currency traders in US dollars, requiring a balance.

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"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

Kyllie Wylie

And here all this time I thought the price of Lindens was based on Temperature, Co2 and Sunspot activity ...

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Hypatia Callisto

excellent, I think I am finally down to a useful idea. Of course it has zero chance of happening in SL... but the debate was useful

a tiny demurrage fee inworld to deal with inactivity (ETA: the inworld fee should be charged on a monthy basis at the most frequent, on the amount of L$ which is in the account at that moment, and no more. 0 balance = you owe 0 L$), and pair that up with reasonable cash ($$) fees for holding a large amount of L$ on the LindeX over a longish length of time.

Plus instituting other options of exchange into hard currency which are better as a store of value (using the €, for example)

Argent Stonecutter

Yeh, but unless it was inflating the money supply faster than the real user base was expanding, it would still have stopped when the exchange rate reached the point where it was cheaper to buy L$ on Lindex than farm an army of premium alts. Any real inflationary effects were totally masked by the exchange rate imbalance.

That's what I'm getting at... the gap between the LindeX exchange rate and the "annual premium alt" exchange rate was so vast that you really can't say that the figures demonstrate the kinds of things you're trying to pull out of them.

Hypatia Callisto

Inflation was happening, how much, we have no idea... but I think the alt farming was a lot higher and would have been a lot higher with the bot farming, so cutting it back on the basic accounts stipend was a good step regardless. (they used to get 50 L$ a week, too and were also farmed)

Theory is all well and fine but now I found this.

http://www.bundesbank.de/download/vo...0643dkp_en.pdf

yea yea we can expect that answer from the Deutsche Bundesbank (note I havent finished reading the government report but its here for people's information) but the article in the Telegraph is more interesting. I see a field trip in my near future. However the Bundesbank report may have an impact how Germany may see the L$ over time and other virtual microcurrencies as well, so I believe its important information. As far as I can see in every instance, the big danger to RL scrip and virtual microcurrency is that the government puts an end to it to maintain its monopoly over money.

And we can all guess what happens if the government takes away the L$

Germans get by without the euro - Telegraph

ETA: Wikipedia entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer

Gigs

Fixed that for you.

Credit card companies have failed to prevent businesses from charging a credit card surcharge and they have massive power and influence. The businesses just give a "cash discount" which amounts to the same thing.

If a system like this became prevalent enough that businesses needed to participate in order to stay competitive, they would just do the same thing, and charge a surcharge the same as the money they lose to the commission.

A lot of your ideas revolve around people taking a voluntary loss. That's just not going to happen.

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"It is the paramount duty of governments and of politicians to secure the wellbeing of the community under the case in the present, and not to run risks overmuch for the future" - JM Keynes

Hypatia Callisto

My idea is not voluntary And, if dollars are charged, you are not going to be able to pass that charge off with the way the LindeX works. Nyah nyah. Spend or lose. (and yes, I know you can cancel and relist, rules can be made around that too)

The currency in RL is apparantly still successful. I will take one successful experiment over 1000 theories any day.

I find practice more interesting than theories.

But this is put out there as its still operating successfully, and this town is not terribly far away from me in RL so I think I am going to go out one weekend and see the castle.



pretty.

Gigs

I should have said "The ideas you seem to admire"

If you want, pick up some extra Chiemgauer. Maybe we can work out a trade for some fractional Ithaca Hours if I have some extra (I need to check my stock).

Argent Stonecutter

Corporate and local scrip is not that unusual, and it works well in situations where it's promoted for nationalist or local/regional issues, or charity. People are willing to go through all kinds of shenanigans to support a cause they believe in. The success of these schemes on a small scale is not as meaningful as you imply.

In Second Life, they're going to see this as being in support of Linden labs' profits.

Desmond Shang

Looking at the macro level, there may be a lot of modifiers on the value of holding onto $L.

For one, people generally pay taxes at cashout. Meaning that at some level, choosing when to cash out can be a short term tax hedge (maybe?)

For two, there's the Euro VAT ~ arguably $L made inworld is pre~VAT and can be spent as $L without ever getting taxed VAT.

Something to think about... I'm not sure how it factors in, though.

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Hypatia Callisto

another factor is that people who just keep $$ instead of L$ lets LL make interest on their money.

LL has now been turned into an actual bank, according to my idea. And my idea was to allow LL to actually make a profit on the LindeX and more profits inworld from land and commerce, and I am unsure why anyone thinks this is bad.

It always seems like certain people think in zero sum instead of non zero sum games. In this scenario, there are no losers provided you keep the money in dollars or invested inworld in your business. In my mind, much of our problems with lack of business inworld and the issue of high powered money ready to go off on the LindeX would just dissolve. Of course dollars might lose their value (probably will) hence my desire for a better choice of currency to exchange the L$ into.

Another point is that there is always enough market instability that you will profit from arbitrage in other ways. Money however is not meant to be as volatile as a volcano, its meant to be a stable medium of exchange.

I really don't have time anymore for a back and forth, I think now is the time to actually try out the idea. LL is not making money on the LindeX and if it goes off the rails its surely not going to make money from the LindeX, and nobody else is either.

Hypatia Callisto

The Dutch government has figured out the easy way to deal with VAT is to just charge VAT on everything you cash out of Second Life with a flat percentage.

Sweet huh?

Yeah, people are not going to cash out until they are damn well good and ready to... and LL can stand to profit from that as well.

Argent Stonecutter

Huh?

It doesn't matter to Linden Lab whether the credit one's maintaining with them is denominated in L$ or US$ credit. They were paid the money when someone transferred it in, whether they bought on market or transferred it as US$ credit, and they can earn interest on that money no matter what side of the LindeX it's on.

Hypatia Callisto

Explain all this when the government is taking all the computers away, because having a parallel circulating currency to the fiat currency is generally illegal.

It is illegal in the US and it is illegal in Germany, and as soon as they think its a threat to them you will be raided.

Adios.

Argent Stonecutter

OK, I have no idea what you're talking about.

If I buy an iTunes gift card, I pay Apple $30 now. Over the next two months my daughter buys 30 tracks. Apple doesn't hold onto my dirty paper money and wait until my daughter buys a track to put it in the bank. They bank the money when I buy the card and start earning interest on it right away.

Linden Lab, similarly, when you pay them $30 to put into US$ credit... they don't bank it when you pay them the $30 and then take the money out of the bank when you buy L$ with it. They're earning interest on it no matter whether it's currently called US$ or L$.

The only REAL money here is the money you paid them when you cashed in, and THAT money is in their bank until someone cashes it out, no matter what color it currently has.

Hypatia Callisto

Argent, I have no time for this, go read the Deutsche Bundesbank PDF linked in this thread if you want to know what they think about it.

Argent Stonecutter

I just want to know what you mean by "another factor is that people who just keep $$ instead of L$ lets LL make interest on their money." Linden Lab has your money whether they call it L$, US$, Marsbucks, or Quatloos.

Hypatia Callisto

I see trees in a forest. A very vast forest, so densely wooded that you cannot reach the towns. Some trees need to be cut down, and out of those trees we'll make some more stuffs, which get traded down those roads that were cut to the town.

Argent sees a tree, but he is so close to the tree that he doesn't realise how many trees are in a forest. He can't tell if there is only one tree, or if there are ten trees, or if there are 100,000 trees. Not only that, he doesn't realise there might be a need for a road to be built through the forest.

ETA, its the last post. It's not meant facetious, its a simple fact that I think you haven't read the PDF or listened to what my objectives actually are, and therefore there is no point in talking further. I don't think its possible for me to explain it 100,000,000,000,000,000 times more. I'll just write a blog post instead.

Argent Stonecutter

I'm not asking you to explain fiat currency, I'm asking you to explain one simple side-comment, but whatever.

Anyway... when you make that blog post, I'd appreciate a link. I'd appreciate it if you'd provide it without the personal commentary, while you're about it, but I'll accept it either way.

Sonja Aeghin

Very interesting. Another example comes from the Depression-the town of Worgl, Austria, in 1932 enacted a demurrage system.

A commentary on it: Comment on the Wörgl Experiment with Community Currency and Demurrage

I am actually in favor of implementing a negative interest currency structure myself, on paper at least. Kill the compulsion on those who have money to hoard it rather than keep it circulating. Holding money would profit nothing; the primary way to grow profits, then, in theory, would be to invest. Put the money to work.

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Samantha Fuller

The current RL economic system is tottering toward a collapse. And to efect real change we need to change how money works. Do you have any plans to test or create an alternative in OpenSim or SL.


Also an note you might find interesting, OLG is currently allowing the payment of tier in its currency, as well as the "scripted purchase of sims".