SLUniverse Forums

Liona Clio

I think the problem becomes that both are true...SL is a community; and it's also a business-run service. I think we have to remember which one trumps the other, however. We are residents of SL...but first and foremost we are customers of Linden Labs.

If we are going to deal with issues of how SL works, we need to remember which frame of mind we need to use. Approaching LL as an angry resident demanding 'rights' is not as effective as approaching them as a paying customer. Companies are not affected by protest signs...until it affects their bottom line.

I see nothing wrong with Jira. But if there was, we'd need to approach LL as concerned customers, and not angry parts of Second Life's soul...which, from what I'm seeing, is how Prokofy is approaching this.

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"Well, my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle."

Especially at night, I worry over situations I know will be alright. Perhaps its just my imagination. Day after day it reappears. Night after night my heartbeat, shows the fear. Ghosts appear and fade away... -Colin Hay

Cindy Claveau

The "soul" of SL is the people in it. Not code, not Jira, not the Lindens. That "soul" will migrate to other worlds if/when SL shuts down.

Ironically, Prok's argument hinges on that code making up the "soul", which seems to me counter-intuitive to her larger gripe. To Prok, "Googlization" is evil. But Googlization is, simply, nothing more than a different way to arrange code for searches -- the user community comes later, using that code structure to more easily interact and form sub-communities. The method by which they do that is irrelevant. Google and Facebook are just faster, more technical versions of index cards.

If she's truly as Luddite as she seems, I'd think she would sell her computer and move to the mountains. Because otherwise, she's going to encounter "code hackers", Googlization and (*ahem*) modernization at every turn as long as she stays in the virtual world of the internet.

She reminds me of someone who screams about automobile pollution but drives a new Cadillac SUV. Use it, enjoy it, but bitch about it at every opportunity.

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Cocoanut Koala

You said it, sister.

coco

Archer Braun

As usual, it's not necessarily the construction of JIRA that makes it such a moronic fingersniffing waste of time - but rather what the Lindens DO with it.

Nicholas posted a very cogent blog entry about how LL will routinely sweep the JIRA and list bug after bug as "fixed internally" - which means it's still a bug...it still causes problems...but will go away once the Lindens get around to actually integrating the fix into the newest client release.

LL's customer service is a pathetic joke. Their inability to integrate bug fixes provided by the open source community in a timely manner is merely evidence that they really need to open the windows and clear out the bong fumes from the office.

Prok may be a contentious wingnut - but I happen to like contentious wingnuts that can turn a handy phrase or two.

And when I look at my own gradual evolution from SL fanboi to contemptuous sneerbag, Prok's postings just seem like a sad attempt at trying to keep SL more democratic...and a little less snowballed by the bone chips LL spews to the mewling crowds every once in a while.

I mean...for FUCK's sake...what the hell good is this ass-bag "windlight" crap...when the entire platform crashes with almost frightening regularity...logins are fuxxord more and more often...and...oh, fuck it.

Nevermind.

Cocoanut Koala

As for Jira itself, it's been obvious to me since the get-go that they really don't want (as someone else posited on some other forum) the average joe messing around reporting bugs.

They want the technical minded to do it, so what better way that to set up a hard-to-use mess where those who can talk a good tech and with a lot of time on their hands can put in the bug reports and run the whole show?

The second reason for it is to corral all the little would-be SL programmers and give them a place to play. Then LL can look at it sometimes, and maybe get some pointers and save themselves some work.

Add to this the fact that this isn't the Lindens REAL Jira, and that they just look at it sometimes, and it starts to look like a lovely place for some residents to flex their little e-peens at, and indeed, it is.

I saw early on that it was a place for some to put down others, and that if you dared post about something, and you WEREN'T all techy about it, you'd likely run into umpteen snide comments. Which is why I blew the whole thing off, and refused to submit my contributions, just to be pissed on.

Matter of fact, I was driven to JIRA recently, regarding the harsh and too intense effects of Windlight, after someone pointed out that I should look there (WarKirby, I believe), which I supposed I should, so I did.

I found exactly my complaint, and first off, someone put down the person writing it*; and second off, it was declared "fixed." (Which it isn't.) I found other versions of my criticisms, and they were treated similarly.

coco

*Edit: Not only put DOWN that person, actually CLOSED THE ENTRY! Which the person then REWROTE to suit whatever little jackoff closed it in the first place.

Danged if I'm going to waste time at that.

WarKirby Magojiro

On the surface, it does seem like a bad idea. But despite what Prok spews out, it does work, and continues to work.

Whenever an issue is opened, closed, changed, etc, it is updated, and shows up in searches for recently updated issues. Thusly, any change you make to an issue, will easily and instantly be seen by the many other people who look over newly updated issues.

Secondly, closure is not final. An issue can be reopened as easily as closed, and I've never seen anyone get into an edit war. When an issue is reopened, it's left that way.

If someone went around closing issues they didn't like, it's only a matter of time before they get shut down and removed from jira. Closed or not, new issues show up in the new issues search, and will always get seen by several people. I personally check new issues in last 24hrs at least twice a day.

If someone starts abusing the system like that, lindens will remove that person's jira privileges.

Prokofy really doesn't see the whole picture. I think Lex Neva says it best:

Jira is a collaboratory system, much like wikipedia. And while the occasional bit of vandalism does slip under the net, on the whole, Wikipedia is world reknowned as a generally reliable source of info. And it wouldn't be anywhere near as sucessful without the philosophy of being open and editable to all.

Jira has slightly less freedom, as you need an SL account to use it, but otherwise, it's the same concept. And it really does work.

Envoy Costagravas

No kidding. The whole thing is jiratating.

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Mordos Yering

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Sooz Pascale

I find JIRA to be incomprehensible. Does that mean it is useless due to my own technological stupidity? No, of course not.

IF it actually leads to bugs getting FIXED, then I am all for it. Whatever works.

Sooz

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Brenda Connolly

I'M a Luddite. Prok is never at any of the weekly meetings.
I found JIRA to be annoyingly complicated, I steer clear of it.
*I drive a Ford SUV. I love it*

Menchor Barbosa

I am not a real techie, but I understand how coding and software work. I have used the JIRA for several issues and have also found it useful for flagging issues that I may have noticed.

I posted a beta havok 4 issue on the JIRA, HUD items crashing when going from Havok 1 to Havok 4 sims. I was asked for more detail and gave it. There were 3 similar posts noting in various terms the same problem. One was assigned a Linden work number, and the issue was fixed in the next release. I closed the issue as fixed.

I had a strange problem that I posted under Windlight in the original release, of prims behaving as phantom when they weren't. Lex Neva offered the comment that this was unlikely to be a client issue, probably a simulator problem. I got a notice this week that someone was having the same problem in the current Windlight client. Maybe it is a bug in the client???

The JIRA is a flawed tool for communicating issues in SL. It can however work if it is used as a way of indicating problems and voting on their impact. The slightly rotating prim problem was finally tracked down and killed, and every time the Lindens thought they had it the JIRA said no, still a problem.

Obviously the non technical people have a hard time describing a problem in enough detail for someone to have an idea that this is a problem, and what code to look at. This does not mean the system is unfair on undemocratic, just like SL, a certain level of computer skills are necessary to take advantage of everything.

No comment on Prok.

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Cindy Claveau

That doesn't make you a Luddite, Brenda. It makes you normal

Everybody but Prok chooses not to launch a verbose campaign against something they don't understand. That's what makes her so tastily mock-worthy.

Cocoanut Koala

You know, it doesn't take a degree from some IT technical college to understand or post on JIRA, or to understand SL and its issues.

Certainly the issue I'm concerned about doesn't require it; you can see what I'm talking about with your own eyes.

coco

Parker McTeague

jira is a bukkake of data, and not really intended for non-geeky folks. i would be surprised they even let people outside their own developers see this, except i know there is a strong development community in sl. and even with that in mind it could be MUCH better designed.

i can see prok's point about anyone being able to close issues. but other than that, i don't expect it to be democratic. seems like they use this as a feedback tool, and what they choose to do with their bugs is up to them. i don't know if it's working, but that's a management issue they need to work on. us shouting about it won't help. a democracy won't help either. they listen and become experts at their problems or they don't.

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also you can read my blog!

Cindy Claveau

WarKirby Magojiro

One of the names prokofy has started using for jira users.

"The Magic Circle"

Dancien Graves

I'm attacking a feature!!





To quote Shakespeare in regards to this whole issue.
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Asher Bertrand

Coco, you let Allana use her BDSM Mind Control on you

WarKirby Magojiro

"script kiddies"

"Tiny Cadre of Lifers"

"the Small Cabal"

"dictators"

"gardeners of the little circle"

de-clutterers of the JIRA

lifer-coder types

"your kind"

Linden favourites

Rob's fanboyz

"the in-group"

the magic circle again

I think The Magic Circle is the most popular one thus far.

Joshua Nightshade

I wonder how she really must be in her day-to-day.



"Hello, this is Keyspan Energy Delivery, LaShawnique speaking, can I get your account number?"

"