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Old 08-22-2009, 10:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Are we human? Or, are we griefer?

I warn you a head of time. TL R...


To start: I am Immy. I am my own person, embodied in an avatar. I am the maker and keeper of all of my own decisions. That said, I have a big decision to make. In addition, I fear that this decision is a lose-lose situation.


I am a member of NCI. To expand, I am a Helper in the New Citizen's Inc. group, I am an Instructor and Land Officer in the NCI Land Holdings group, and I am a Mall Manager in the New Citizen's Mall group. I teach one class a night, every Thursday night at 6pm. I co-host a Question and Answer event every Saturday night at 6pm. I am currently substituting for the host of the Show and Tell event every Sunday night.


I am also the creator of the NCI Spam Central *NO ADVERTISEMENTS* conversation group that allows more idle group chat so that the main group can remain an effective support portal for new and old residents alike.


In addition, I spend my time in the Kuula sandbox mingling with the crowd, my friends, and new residents. I have over a year long history of helping people, befriending people, building, scripting, and I won't deny my fair share of drama. I don't pretend to be a good person. I don't believe I am one. But, if someone says I'm worth while, I'll take them at their word. Numerous people have said so. So, I don't believe I'm in a position do deny it.


I am a member of Second Life Mentors. In addition to my time spent in NCI; I frequent infohubs, welcome areas, and help the random strangers I meet. I find fun in gesturebating my way through the mob and if someone asks for help I'll gladly face them and offer what resources I can for their benefit. Honestly, this is my idea of fun.


*** I think I've done plenty in attempt to duct-tape a halo over my head...


I am a member of Woodbury University. For those of you who don't know, WU is a group that contains people with common connections to the *chan culture, SA forums, and I think even Ebaums World. Many of these communities are older than SL. A less than liberal mind would consider them to be the gutter of the internet. In some cases, proudly so.


I personally was an anonymous poster to 7chan for quite a few years. The spark to convince me to join SL was a screenshot of the Windlight First Look client posted on 7chan. I had made attempts to join SL since beta, but, never had the computer to do it. That screenshot combined with some disposable income at the time was enough to finally pull me inworld for a second time and finally make the account you see here today. I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but, up until SL5B I used to maintain the group tag over my head reading /cake/.


I'm in the group because it's an inworld contact to people that share my commonly twisted sense of humor. Group notices contain new gestures. Group chat is funny, random, insane and a good diversion from the 'normalcy' usually found in SL. I'll visit the group sandboxes once in a while and play with some gadgets that I normally can't play with anywhere else on the grid.


It's a diverse group. I know the reputation the group has due to the treatment of a certain mad blogger. I have been told details and history of some horrible events. So, I'm more than prepared to believe that there is a large number of A-holes and psychopaths in the group. My thing is, in my point of view, they don't make up the entire group.


For argument's sake, the Roman Catholic church knowingly has priests and volunteers that molest children. As a result, I believe in Association Fallacy and personally can't libel an entire group because of the activities of one portion of it's members, even if the group as a whole doesn't vilify these members for their behavior.


*** Now... Why bring all this up?


I have been blogged about in regards to my membership in both groups. In this blog, I have been both described as a sort of supergriefer/hacker who joins 'grief posses' in order to disrupt discussions. I'm apparently 'evading bans' using my 'hacker nature'. This blogger has stated that I repeatedly have been seen in 'posses' and made multiple attempts to disrupt events. This blogger has connected me to gangs of bobbing and weaving avatars dropping particles and self-replicating cubes.


Because of all this, the blogger considers me to be a liability to NCI. I am referred to as some sort of griefer/recruiter that puts a legitimizing face on an evil group that doesn't deserve daylight in many peoples' points of view.


The details can be found on this person's blog and my own. I have made attempts to comment on the blog with as much fact as I have available and nearly each response has been deleted. So, I'm having to resort to other outlets to keep the story straight. Nobody has to believe me, I don't ask for that.


To make my own statement here, and reiterate what I've already said in my blog and in responses to that person's blog:


I don't grief.


I didn't go to that person to disrupt. Two of the three times, that person came to me. One of the times, I was genuinely helping two other people navigate the Freebie Wall inside an NCI infonode. Honestly, the other bannings didn't bother me a bit. But, to ban me for helping others under the pretense that I'm in some griefing mob just doesn't fly with me.


*** On to my question:


I'm in Catch-22 now. I see three choices.


Choice 1: Leave Woodbury University.


Pros: It would sever my association with what people strongly believe to be a griefer group. It may lift some peoples' opinions of me in regard to my personality. It would “prove the blogger wrong” to a certain degree.


Cons: I don't think it will solve a thing. What's done is done. I have been vilified and the publicity of both groups will not change. I am who I am if I am in the group or not and with or without people may continue to assume that I am influenced by WU. In addition, people may believe I am influencing NCI in order to turn it into a griefer haven. Me leaving the group will not change this. At the same time, WU is diverse. I and many other people are examples that there are facets of *chan culture that are often overlooked. If I leave, I'll be letting the people that blatantly ignore this “win”.


Choice 2: Leave NCI.


Pros: It would sever the most visible 'legitimizing link' between WU and NCI. It will shift the opinions of detractors of both groups. It will allow the “good guys” to claim their “win”.


Cons: NCI will lose a volunteer, or two, or three, or more... In my wake. I have friends in all circles of NCI and they respect and support me. As a reaction to my exit, they may decide that the group has lost its sense of direction and also leave. If I am genuinely an asset to the group, my one exit alone will leave a dent. My exit may also bolster my falsely derived reputation of me being a griefer. The people who have decided to make up false stories about me would be able to pat themselves on the back in their own reward for 'separating the chaff'.


Choice 3: Ignore all of this and don't change a thing.


Pros: Things can be as they were two weeks ago. I can have my laugh in the WU group chat, help new residents in the NCI nodes and sandboxes, play with gadgets in the WU sandboxes, and teach lessons and host events that help new users get oriented into enjoying SL far better than any effort Linden Lab has ever paid someone to do.


Cons: NCI may still be a target of 'anti griefer' ramblings on blogs. People may decide to no longer direct new residents to the group for help. Advertisers and supporters may pull their funding into the group.


***So, what am I to do?


In the end, this mad blogger will still be a willing target of some of the most horrible harassment I've ever heard of in person. With or without the WU group. There will always be someone 'out to get this person' as long as this person is so very public and stubborn about controversial opinions. At the same time, this person exaggerates to a huge degree what people are actually doing. My own case, as an example. And, in my point of view, it detracts from this person's credibility to a very large degree. You can only cry wolf for so long.


I asked a question in a small meeting last night. “Who is the most important person to NCI?”


I was frankly quite shocked at the responses I got. The names given in reply were not all that surprising. But, in my point of view, that question is NOT supposed to be answered with any one person's name.


My answer to the question is in the name of the group itself: The New Citizen.


Do new citizens, residents, users, players (use any name you like) know anything about me? Do they know the groups I'm in? Should it matter at all?


I have suggested that the NCI group should be focused on the community that makes up the sandbox. That community is made up of new residents, older regulars, helpers new and old, and the supporting staff they need to stay productive. The most important part of the New User Experience is the new user. NCI is genuinely part of the NUE and I believe it to be a disservice to hold the group and anyone within the group (including myself) responsible for anything in regards to grid oldbie politics at large.


Thank you for reading, if you did.


I will not defend myself against any genuine claims of bad behaviour. But, I will not allow myself to be lied about.


I will not stake claim upon being a good person. But, I will not sit idly by while I'm slandered.


I want to see NCI and organizations like NCI succeed in helping the new resident. And, I do not want to see oldbie politics be the cause of any group's downfall.


Immy. (^_^)y
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I go for choice 3 ,Stay as you are - Defend your corner if necessary but don't be forced to do things because of what someone else thinks.
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:16 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Responding to blogger created drama where at heart there is nothing wrong with your membership in either group will only lend credence to that blogger (and ad revenue). Ignore them and move on. This individual can certainly find other issues, people and venues to complain about.
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Old 08-22-2009, 10:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I know you don't know me Immy but I feel I know you some since I lurk more than anything on various boards that you post on. You are one of those posters I always enjoy.

You, like everyone else, are simply an individual. Individual tastes and interests that some don't agree with and others wish they had the balls to try lol. That doesn't make you a bad person. In fact that isn't something that has ever crossed my mind when following one discussion or another you've been involved in.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who prefer to tell others how to be because it's too scary for them to look in a mirror.

I feel bad that you are having to deal with something like this. Never pleasant. Whatever decision you make I'm sure is going to be very upsetting to you.

All the advice I can offer is just continue to be who you are. Do what you feel is the right thing to do for you. Leaving the group you obviously enjoy (WU) because another feels it interferes in one way or another with NCI doesn't sound like you to me but in the end I guess it is up to you what you deem most important.

I hope it works out, I really do.
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Old 08-22-2009, 11:49 AM   #5 (permalink)
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A major tenet of WU, Tizzer, chan et al is that you shouldn't take your Internet self too seriously, shouldn't care that people attack it, it's not the real you. Another is that you don't feed griefers, don't defend, don't attack back, it only entices them to grief you further. Take their advice, ignore the blogger, and pursue option three.

Or, take any option, it doesn't matter, this is all just pixel pushing non-reality anyway. Turn the PC off and go outside yeah?
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Old 08-22-2009, 12:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Go with option Three.

The blogger will find someone else to attack once you stop bothering with them and they are no longer getting the response they crave for.

Unless Carl or another of the position that has the authority to ask you to chose or leave...then I wouldn't worry about that either. Especially considering that many of us who help at the new resident centers have *many* outside interests. As long as it's not be flaunted or discussed (which I highly doubt in your case it is) while your on NCI grounds. Otherwise, (and I mean no offense with this) for as long as Carl and others have been around and the drama they have dealt with through the years in some form or another.....this is just a blip on the radar and shall pass.

Stick with number 3 and don't let the blogger get to you, don't respond or acknowledge. Continue keeping the two groups separate and enjoy your SL.
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Imnotgoing, it sounds like they're targeting you because you might be a soft target. You're out in public, easily accessible, easily recognizable, and not likely to call down the wrath of bros. What I think you should do is suck it up, and ignore them inworld. Point out to the curious this blogger is not Linden and if their statements where true you would have been long gone.

I too am an long standing NCI LO and WU member. From my exprence I've caused more accidental harm to SL in a single day then Imnotgoing has in a month. My only complaint is I wish she would sick her lolita bots on me.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If it's that well know blogger that foams at the mouth and comes up with wacky conspiracy theories, I'd take it as seriously as timecube.com

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Old 08-22-2009, 05:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well, I was never much good at giving advice, so I'll just post this link.

http://captain-america.us/articles/i...ainamerica.jpg
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imnotgoing Sideways View Post
I am a member of Woodbury University. For those of you who don't know, WU is a group that contains people with common connections to the *chan culture, SA forums, and I think even Ebaums World. Many of these communities are older than SL. A less than liberal mind would consider them to be the gutter of the internet. In some cases, proudly so.

I'm in the group because it's an inworld contact to people that share my commonly twisted sense of humor. Group notices contain new gestures. Group chat is funny, random, insane and a good diversion from the 'normalcy' usually found in SL. I'll visit the group sandboxes once in a while and play with some gadgets that I normally can't play with anywhere else on the grid.

It's a diverse group. I know the reputation the group has due to the treatment of a certain mad blogger. I have been told details and history of some horrible events. So, I'm more than prepared to believe that there is a large number of A-holes and psychopaths in the group. My thing is, in my point of view, they don't make up the entire group.

For argument's sake, the Roman Catholic church knowingly has priests and volunteers that molest children. As a result, I believe in Association Fallacy and personally can't libel an entire group because of the activities of one portion of it's members, even if the group as a whole doesn't vilify these members for their behavior.
The well-known greifer group Woodbury University had their island deleted by Robin Linden in 2007. I assume Immy feels that enough time has past that she can re-write history.

the Woodbury legacy
Alphaville Herald : Woodbury University Island Destroyed

You show up 3 times with the Woodbury Greifers to a parcel and they greif that parcel each time with you there.

But your not a greifer and you have no knowledge of their actions and if you did it is OK.

What about the racist names (nigras and such) that this group likes to use? Not aware of that either, I assume.
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When you knowingly affiliate yourself with known greifers your going to get some feces on you when they create a shit-storm. And that is your choice.

Trying to wipe the shit off in every forum and blog you can find is just a waste of your keystrokes. And NCI should realize that also.

Your friends will defend you no matter what. People that do not know the situation will see the facts that WOODBURY UNIVERSITY ISLAND WAS DELETED BY LINDEN LAB BECAUSE WU MEMBERS ARE GREIFERS. And that you were with these same people and a member of their group when they greifed a parcel 3 times. Those are facts that are hard to overlook when looking at this thing objectively.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm really not a fan of the *chans, SA, etc., but this is ridiculous. If you're doing good work at NCI, who you hang around with outside of that is irrelevant. Not only that, but it sounds like the blogger is lying about you.

I'd stay, and ignore the blogger. Don't be driven out of something you enjoy because of allegations that a) don't matter and b) aren't even true.

Incidentally, is bladyblue the blogger? I'd definitely stay as you are if so.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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who in the world is bladyblue?
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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who in the world is bladyblue?
lol

From memory Blady is the alt of a griefer SLifer named Lias who owns a club near the Bear Hub.

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Old 08-22-2009, 07:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Just wanted to add some facts to Immy's pity party. Carry on with your nonsense.
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Pandas for the mob!

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Old 08-22-2009, 07:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Choice 3.

Here's the kicker - who the fuck is this 'blogger' and why the fuck should you care? What kind of superpower are they that ANYONE cares what they blog? Personally I don't give a half a floury bap rolled around shit what anyone thinks of me - in RL let alone the innerwebz.

You are what you are, and do what you do, and if folks don't like it - tell them to fuck themselves.

Are the kinds of folks influenced by some random twat's ramblings on the internet REALLY the kind of people who's opinions you care about?

I wouldn't - and I've been blogged by quite a few...
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladyblue View Post
Just wanted to add some facts to Immy's pity party. Carry on with your nonsense.
Immy has done nothing wrong. Logical and reasonable folks don't assign guilt by association. So please take your nonsense and stuff it.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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OK. I'll play for a while.
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(Saved Sun Jul 1 12:19:36 2007) Linden Lab has continued to find inappropriate uses of the Second Life region "Woodbury University" under your control. On the 16th of April, you were informed of problems with the activities taking place in the region. Many members of the Woodbury University group (which controls the region) have been detected before and after that date causing severe problems in Second Life, in violation of the terms of service. These problems include incidents of grid attacks, racism and intolerance, persistent harassment of other residents, and crashing the Woodbury University region itself while testing their abusive scripts. Due to the ongoing problems, Linden Lab has no option but to immediately close the Woodbury University region. If you believe that this notice has been sent in error, or that the details of this incident have not been adequately examined, please address your concerns in an e-mail to abuse-manager@lindenlab.com Sincerely yours, Customer Support Linden Lab 945 Battery Street San Francisco, CA
So Immy is a card-carrying member of this group. Determined by Linden Lab to cause ' incidents of grid attacks, racism and intolerance and persistent harassment of other residents'.

And she got banned from one small parcel because of it and the person being greifed complained about it in their blog. Prok only included her in her rant because her name kept showing up when the greif attacks occurred. Prok had no agenda around this Immy person prior to the 3 WU greifing incidents.

If your going to display the tag of a racist greifer gang in your profile - you really should not frequent the parcel of one of their victims. Lesson learned.

Last edited by bladyblue; 08-22-2009 at 08:19 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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it's worth mentioning that this particular blogger attacks people like they were the flavour of the week. So seriously... don't give said individual the light of day and things will right themselves soon enough.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
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And yet a Woodbury region (in fact, three) still exist. 9_9

A blanket labelling of anyone associated with a specific group makes about as much sense as pointing to all Secondlifers and deeming them sexual deviants. This is certainly not always the case and to label individuals as such without adequately understanding the context of the situation is highly irresponsible.
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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And yet a Woodbury region (in fact, three) still exist. 9_9

A blanket labelling of anyone associated with a specific group makes about as much sense as pointing to all Secondlifers and deeming them sexual deviants. This is certainly not always the case and to label individuals as such without adequately understanding the context of the situation is highly irresponsible.
But also human nature. See also: racism, sexism, etc, etc...

Nobody but the participants in each situation know the truth of their contribution, so assuming a sweeping innocence or guilt is just as faulty a logic.

I have no idea about this (*just happened to read this thread) but be wise about it...be careful who you associate with. Duh.

Like so. "I hang out with KKK/White Supremists because well, they don't bother me, and my brother was one, so they're just like good friends, right? We hang out, drink together, they're cool...funny as hell. When they go on about the white thing I just kinda ignore it. I like to sorta stand back and watch them, but I'm not guilty of DOING anything...am I? I just let them do what they do....what, you think I should stop them from doing wrong? It's not my problem, I am just a member."

(no I don't do this in RL, nor do I have a brother, but get the point?)
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 08-22-2009, 08:48 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Siggy View Post
Choice 3.

Here's the kicker - who the fuck is this 'blogger' and why the fuck should you care? What kind of superpower are they that ANYONE cares what they blog? Personally I don't give a half a floury bap rolled around shit what anyone thinks of me - in RL let alone the innerwebz.

You are what you are, and do what you do, and if folks don't like it - tell them to fuck themselves.

Are the kinds of folks influenced by some random twat's ramblings on the internet REALLY the kind of people who's opinions you care about?

I wouldn't - and I've been blogged by quite a few...
.....

OMG, Siggy, "someone" on tha InerTubez does not likez meh!!! Whatever will I doez?
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