Beebo Brink

We've been having a lively discussion about dating a transgendered person in SL (http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/), but I have a different, yet related issue I'd love to discuss in its own thread.

What experieces have you had bending gender in SL? And I'm talking more about crossing the line from the gender with which you identify, unlike a transgendered person who creates an avatar to match their self-image.

I fully expected to have a male avatar at some point in SL, in fact it was the very idea of gender bending that was part of my initial curiosity in venturing into SL. The irony is that I was never able to create a male avatar that suited me.

I've tried many times, but I always fail to get beyond the initial stages of shape development. The results have always been disappointing, without even a spark of recognition or identification with the male figure. I've attempted beefy hunks and slim academic types, young men and older men -- no connection. And even though I run an SL shape business, I seem incapable of creating of a male avatar that is aesthetically pleasing. They all look awkward and unconvincing.

The avatar that has struck the deepest chord with me is Beebo, supposedly an alt but now my main in all but creation date. As a butch lesbian, most often dressed in men's clothes, she seems to have plumbed the depths of my masculinity without actually crossing the line to male. She feels "right" and has a very defined personality that emerged on its own, without conscious effort on my part.

So put me in the "what's up with that?" category when it comes to SL gender bending.

Cindy Claveau

The closest I've come is creating a male avatar for some clothing experiments I've done. Like you, I was never able to really put my heart into him. He ended up looking like a Dudley Doright clone I ultimately stopped trying to make clothing for men but in view of the scarce market for original, tasteful men's clothing it's an area I should take another look at. When I do I'll probably just hire some male models for my ads

Not sure if you caught my mention of this in the Transgender thread, but I interviewed a gender bender a couple of weeks ago and blogged it in Second Life, Second Gender. His rationalizations and deceit aside, his comment about the sexual aspect being a prime motivation does strike me as true. I think that's a very common motivation for men who pretend to be women - it gives them a sexual thrill to dress their doll up and get reactions from men.

But again, your difficulties building a satisfactory male shape probably also translate to these gender benders. How many have you seen which were Pam Anderson characitures? Collagen lips, huge boobs, pinched waist, long legs? This is a reflection of their own sexual ideation of women, I think. Not reality or an inability to create a shape. Avatar shapes are guided by our own mental images more than anything - you were perhaps deterred by your own self-image. The gender-benders are guided by sexual ideation.

Ewan Took

I made a female alt, I didn't identify with it or anything, but I found it so easy to get free skins and clothes that made the avie look great and not like a newbie at all. I felt silly wandering about and dropped a few 'hi hon' for effect but when a guy tried to chat me up I disconnected right away!

There is much more cheap and free content for females is my only lasting experience.

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Khamon

Representing a male avatar is not a strength of the Second Life software. It seems that unless he's a beefed up hunk exposing a tattooed chest, or wearing a gangsta business suit, people will likely as not assume that he's female.

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Beebo Brink

Ewan Took

But there's a lot of great skins out there that will have you in no doubt it's a guy even without the beef!

Tabby Catteneo

I tried, you know.

I was intending to go as a guy for the AAO, made up my alt, gave him some money to buy stuff even, but somehow, I couldn't make him look like anything I identified with, or could even stand to look at for any period of time. >.>

So I gave up. I suppose I might buy a shape and put together someone's fantasy of a guy, but as for actually /playing/ him..

Rev Eponym

I have a female alt, whom I created to see "the other side"... I can't say I identified with her personally, at first. It was more that, I created a character whom I roleplayed, and when I tell people about my experiences playing her, I often refer to her in the third person. Maybe this is denial, of some sort. But I did manage to RP my way into a pretty insular group in SL, using her.

I roleplay this alt more heavily than any of my other SL avatars, make her act a certain way, I think because I don't feel completely comfortable being 'myself' when I'm running her. I rarely speak normally when I talk to others with her. She's a frickin' smartass, that chick.

Aodhan McDunnough

No gender-bending for me here. I set up female avatars only for use in either product development or for making marketing collateral (i.e. pictures). I have plans of making some clothing for women so a female av is a given.

What drew me to SL has always been the creation of stuff and I hardly ever roleplay. I have enough roleplay from tabletop RPGs. I also got my fill of gender-bending a couple of years ago in a tabletop game so I don't really have any interest in doing so in SL.

I'm here for fun and for fun work, gender-bending I find too much work for results that don't particularly interest me.

But could I do it? Oh definitely I could.

Beebo Brink

By coincidence, this afternoon I tripped across an avatar which I found really eye-catching. This is one of the most appealing male avatars I've ever seen in terms of my own aesthetic appreciation. Hmmmm.

From: http://www.second-man.com/new-the-kn...yoot-army.html

Attached Thumbnails

 

Squeedoo S

Squeedoo is a shape shifter. That's all I'm gonna say. x3

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Zorena Deckard

My only male av is for clothing design as well and is on my main and not an alt. I used my partner's av and tweaked it a bit so it wasn't so beefy. He still has muscle as I'm not a fan of waifs but is toned down a fair bit. My partner liked it enough that he now uses the shape I made. In his case he said he never liked the over muscled type but just never took the time to play with the settings.
I really don't think I could be a convincing male av anyways as I have too many female traits that show through in my typed word.

Beebo Brink

Hmmm. I don't think I'd bother consciously changing my behavior with a male avatar. At best I might do so for a role-playing sim that involved historical/fantasy settings, but that activity really hasn't captured my interest.

So I wonder just how weird I would appear to other people, or whether I'm inherently androgynous enough that no one would notice.

Now I'm really curious....

Victorria Paine

One thing I would think, Beebo, is that *generally* people are not scrutinizing the RL gender of male avatars that much (as we discussed a bit in the other thread), which I think would make it somewhat easier to "fit in", even without making that much of a conscious effort to roleplay a male role.

Zorena Deckard

I find I relate to you more as a man then a woman. You're very masculine to me. Your mannerisms and typed word convey more male behaviour. Your more feminine side slips in occasionally. I'm pretty much heavily the female end of the spectrum. I think you could convey either without trying.
I hope this wasn't insulting it's just you from my perspective.

Sooz Pascale

I play a bit of a game with myself when in SL and exposed to new people who I don't know. [NOOO, not THAT kind of game!!] It consists of trying to guess which female AVs are really operated by males. the Pamela anderson look is certainly one hint. Whenever I see a blonde with enormous boobs and trashy fashion, I automatically assume "guy in drag." Call it "T-dar" if you will.

Men and women communicate differently, so I THINK I can often spot guys playing as a female AV. TG [transgendered] people are almost impossible to spot because they tend to think and communicate like the gender they identify with.

My AV is kind of a "plain jane" - basically proportioned like most female AVs in SL although I would like to actually make the boobs smaller...make her a little flat chested. She has auburn hair [the color that works best for me in RL], wears glasses and usually dresses modestly. She looks they way I envision myself, if fantasies could come true. I do try to make her reflect the real life me. Shes the same height, 6', same hair color, glasses, same style of dress. She's just a lot thinner.

Her personality is mine too - basically serious, humorless, not very entertaining, intelligent [I think!! lol], BUT, I believe, a fair, decent and intelligent person who is a good friend.

Beebo comes across to me as kind of sexually ambiguous. Her AV appears male, but not the macho stereotype that is prevalent in SL. There is a masculine directness about her, combined with a quiet confidence. Yet, try as she might [if she does], she can't quite bury a quite feminine sensitivity. When you hang around Beebo for any length of time, you feel SAFE with her...she won't take cheap shots and she won't ride roughshod over your feelings intentionally.

The AV is attractive in its own right and made triply so by the sheer attractiveness of beebo's personality.

Sooz

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Beebo Brink

No, not at all insulting. In fact, I'm rather fascinated to hear other people's impressions of Beebo, since it is impossible for me to judge her accurately or objectively.

Beebo is very much me, especially in terms of written voice, but with character traits that I believe are more muted in RL. Or possibly buffered by an appearance that is less overtly masculine. Although I must confess that my RL self is incredibly jealous of Beebo's wardrobe, so maybe we're not so far apart on that issue as I like to believe.



Thanks, Sooz, that's very generous praise indeed.

No, I don't try to hide any aspect of Beebo that might be seen as feminine. At worst, I play up the butch aspect, but that's more from a kind of kid-in-a-candy-store enthusiasm that derives from the freedom to indulge myself in SL. I would imagine that a TG woman might react that way in SL, too, by indulging in feminine clothes and flirting outrageously in ways that have been denied her as a male in RL.

Perhaps I can't work with a male avatar because I've already tapped that part of myself with Beebo and there's nothing left over for another version.

I've toyed with trying to make my main a more overtly feminine avatar in contrast, but that feels just as twitchily wrong as putting on a male skin.

Sooz Pascale

The praise, if its that, is just honest. Its how I really see you.

The overstated feminity that some indulge in happens in RL to. I call it the "new cross dresser syndrome." You see what are basically middle aged men acting like 17 yrs old high schools and dressing the way imaginary hooker dress. Real hookers don't dress nearly as provacively as people imagine them to do, btw.

After a while, especially if you feel you are really a woman or partially so, you just want to act "normal."

here's some unsolicited advice: Just do whatever with your AV or AVs that feels RIGHT for you. If its right for you, this will come across...you will be natural, uneffected and....right. Beebo, the people who know you really don't care if you look like Arnold Schwartzeneger, Paris hilton, Elton John or.. a fire breathing dragon. Its YOU, the you that is inside that is important.

Do what is right for you, that will work for everyone else.

Sooz

Mordos Yering

I've played a female alt. And couldn't keep people convinced I was a guy RL. Probably because I made my own relatively realistically proportioned shape -- comparatively heavy and small-breasted, and didn't dress all that outrageously. And I seem to auto-role play, each of my AV's has a different personality.

Then again, I've been accused of being rather androgynous personality-wise IRL.

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Beebo Brink

I was rather startled when I first heard you were male in RL. I think your avatar is so convincingly female precisely because you dont try too hard to create the perception that she is female by being very feminine.

As Sooze detailed, one of the "tells" for men is the exaggeration of culturally stereotypical female behavior and rather outrageous bodily attributes. I was always convinced that Mae West was actually a TG male. She struck me as the epitome of a man's ideal of what a woman should be. Women, on the other hand, tend to try harder to be the kind of woman they WANT men to like.

Sooz Pascale

Yes, Mordos. I dont know you in SL yet but the two BIG clues that a female AV is actually a guy is the exagerated femininity both as far as behavior and appearance. If you have managed to avoid both of them, I am sure most people think you're female.

WOW!!! You know, I never thought of that. That women try to be the kind of woman they WANT men to like. Thats it!! really.

Mordos Yering

Hadn't even thought about the exaggerated feminity behaviour-wise. She tends towards more of a psychotic tom-boy instead of a bimbo.

Well . . . some women try to be what they *think* men will like. I've also seen the skinny-with-big-knockers syndrome from insecure RL women.

Victorria Paine

That's in fact what I've seen with my close MTF TS friend in SL -- she is that in RL as well, and so in SL she is not exaggerated in her gender expression, because she's now pretty settled into that in RL as well.

Mabb Dilweg

Ahh but a psychotic tomboy can be incredibly attractive, Mordos, to both men AND women in SL

For myself, I have trouble with anything other than being myself, personality-wise in SL. Even with role-playing, it's still me, I just use a different vocabulary.

I have an alt who helped my get first land (oh, the memories...) and she's small and cute - I had to spend a little on her, because I can't stand the default av look so I figured I'd try a different look.

I do hop on her occasionally, mostly to transfer money as we were lucky enough to be in the L$500 pw stipend group. She has a few friends in common with me and I've occasionally spent time with these friends in her skin, but it just doesn't feel right. I imagine a male avatar would be even harder to cope with. I have tried, for the sake of modelling pics and so on, but I was never able to find a body I liked, so I use my partner instead. That;s probably why my products are mostly female-oriented.

I guess I've been Mabb for so long that I am bonded to her in a way that I could never bond with another avatar. Hence I rarely speak of her in the third person - she's an extension of me. I can't even put on a tanned skin without feeling odd - and I need to do that for display ads and so on from time to time. I get my proper white skins back on really quick!

I have a pretty good radar for the opportunistic male-in-a-pammy av. As others have said, in addition to the exaggerated shape and excess of bling, conversation often shows them up pretty quickly. Of course, they are more likely to try and chat up a female av so they can see the whole girls-on-girl thing play out in front of them - well that's been my experience anyway, and the way they go about it makes their RL gender pretty obvious.

I've only really met one person who I bothered to communicate extensively with, who fooled me, but she was TG anyway, so frankly, as far as I am concerned she's female.

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Tabby Catteneo

fwiw, beeb, I occasionally think of you in guy terms. >.>

But then, I occasionally think of Coyo in guy terms too, so I'm not so sure what that says about me. XD


Obvious men are... obvious, for lack of a better word. >.> But I wonder if I could spot a girl playing a guy...?