Joshua Nightshade

I've never understood why people say it's ugly in the first place.

And "asking" anyone to do anything in SL is an exercise in awful manners and incredible entitlement. Someone was littering prims all over my sim yesterday and when I asked them to stop he said, quote, "Fuck off, I'm building."

If people act this affronted discussing the subject on a forum, trust me, they're no better in-world.

Ann Launay

Ah, but if the person feels you can't effectively see what they've created without the faceliight, it becomes absolutely necessary in their minds. It may not be worth it to you, but the person wearing the light will have an entirely different perspective.

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Rhonda Huntress

I was talking about a facelight that was maxed. 20 meters, pure white, max intensity, no fall off. Those tiny nukes that the vast majority hate.

Education is a good start. Like going to a crowded area it is best to turn off/detach the lights along with scanners and any particle sources (chain leash, for example). This should be common courtesy for SL residents and something we all need to help gently train the newbies to follow.

Roxie Marten

I suspect face lights is more for the vanity of the person wearing them, than the people around them.

How many times do you cam in on a face and look at in awe and rapture, because the lighting on it is perfect?
If you are like most humans, you note the important features for latter pattern recognition and move on.

__________________
"I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else"


Something has changed within me
Something is not the same
I'm through with playing by the rules
Of someone else's game
Too late for second-guessing
Too late to go back to sleep
It's time to trust my instincts
Close my eyes and leap

It's time to try
Defying gravity
I think I'll try
Defying gravity
And you can't pull me down...

Charlemagne Allen

Also, fer fucks sake, there's an integrated lighting board in SL now... seriously, Windlight is the best thing to come from the Labs in ages, and you're going to ignore that?

Seriously, if you don't think Windlight is good enough, look at the stuff Ahmad Hosho has put out and prostrate at his knees in forgiveness....

This picture is sans photo editing.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/hosho/

__________________
Charlemagne Allen: YOU'RE A RACIST!
Charlemagne Allen: I HAVE CHATLOGS!
smokergirl Lowenhar: HOMOPHOBE
smokergirl Lowenhar: CONTENT THIEF
Charlemagne Allen: RELIGION SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!
smokergirl Lowenhar: KISS MY ASS YOU CLOSE MINDED HYPOCRIT
Charlemagne Allen: YOU WERE AN ESCORT FOR BARN ANIMALS!
Charlemagne Allen: ZOMG BIG SIG!

Pretty things:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charlemagneallen/

Ann Launay

The default WL lighting is perfectly fine if you're looking at builds or watching the skies, but it's not particularly flattering to (non-prim) avatars. If your SL if even somewhat av-centric, that's going to make you cranky.

Roxie Marten

I don't know about the other shadow viewers. With Kirsten's, Turning on shadows in the hardware settings over ride turning off attached lights in the debug menu.

Rhonda Huntress

Oh yes. I have pled guilty to that already.

Arilynn

I don't think it is reasonable to expect store owners and others to remain online and patrol their builds for disruptive facelights. An easier solution would be to save facelights for your own place and for photoshoots and use WL presets when on other's property.

Ann Launay

Of course it is. *shrug*

But both sides of this debate are fueled by selfish motives, every single time we have it...we all want what we want in our personal SLs.

Carter-Madhu

Hey, if you're yelling at people it's not much of a surprise that you get an indignant response.

Similarly for your acknowledged generalization: of course you are free to make it, but you can't be surprised that those of us in that 2% (or whatever) to take exception to it. And if you meet me in world some time and still want to tell me I look stupid, I'm just going to have to politely disagree.

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Ann Launay

Nice in theory, but not everyone can run Windlight on their machines and even more people don't have the understanding/patience/inclination to tinker with the environmental editor to find something workable if they can just pop on a facelight instead. As I already said, LL could help with the issue if they gave us an av-friendly default option on the drop down menu.

And yes, Charlemagne, you can build beautiful lighting schemes with WL, but for the average user, that's probably not going to happen.

Rhonda Huntress

For the most part, I thought this was a very civil discussion.

Arilynn

I agreed with this, Ann, in my response to Rhonda: It isn't difficult to establish a WL setting if you have instructions, but I doubt most users know these exist and lack the knowledge to do it alone (I know I wouldn't be able to without someone else's instructions). I completely agree that LL should create an av-friendly default. Until that happens however, I think using a facelight in someone else's build in a bad decision when one knows they can be disruptive and are able to adjust WL.

Charlemagne Allen

Agreed.

However, you get as much in Second Life as you put into it. There are many resources-- NCI, Torley's videos, Ivory Tower of Prims, OI et al.-- to learn the program. If one can't enjoy SL because one simply does not care to learn the program, then I really don't have sympathy for one's plight.

JennL

What is so funny about this thread is the pro windlight users prefer to look at themselves in the mirror. No one else can see the way you look with current the current implementation.

Yes Windlight is nice but given the fact you can't set a SIMs setting by default its almost a complete waste of time for builders unless you work with LL's default.

I'm not a facelight user in general but I'm frustrated by LL implementation of WL.

Its also a pity LL use OpenGLs minimum settings but I guess back in 2003, GFX cards were not as powerful.

One thing I do hate with a passion is those hairs that have facelights within them...ugh.

Roxie Marten

For me you just hit the nail on the head.

Our sim is the wild west based in 1899. I find wearing face lights as wrong as wearing a suit of armor or ridding a harley down main street.

Picture this in your head. The sun is going down, the shadows growing long, the warm glow of the sun reflecting off the sand and rocks. The oil lamps in the buildings start coming on.
You pause and think, for a computer generated scene this doesn't look too bad.

Then it happens, The 10,000 watt avatar shows up, blasting enough light to flag down passing space ships. Poof, all this work to create the perfect ambiance shot out the window.

Ann Launay

What makes you think new users know that? What they generally know is that their avatar looked bad and the facelight makes it look better. And, even if they do know, you are again asking them to prioritize someone else's SL over their own. Probably not going to happen.

And I think there need to be simpler options for the average user if LL wants to continue to attract new Residents. It's great to have the option to run rampant through the environmental editor, but you shouldn't have to in order to get the look you want. Give people - all people, including the virtual Barbie crowd - something workable to start with and let them expand as they feel motivated to do so. The current defaults don't do that.

Rhonda Huntress

I guess I could make scruntched up, invisi-prim av that emited a single full bright partical sprite of a Bettie Page picture. It would greatly lower my arc as well

Sveid Heidenstam

I believe the "Spot the face light" post misses the point. I use avatar attached lights, and local lighting to properly light in photoshoot situations. If I'm successful, the lighting in the resulting screenshot does not look out of place.

If I take two screenshots of my avatar in a dark corridor with no visible light sources, a closely cropped picture of my face is not going to appear out of place, but a wider shot including the dark corridor is going to make it clear that there is an invisible light source near my face.

If I walk down the same dark corridor, the effect will appear even more unnatural to those who see me. Even if the light is relatively subtle and only illuminates my face and not the surrounding room. In this broader view, the overall appearance is not something I would be proud of. Yes, my face would be more visible, but it would appear awkward, forced, entirely unnatural. If I were to take the point of view of one critiquing a scene, for a game or a movie or whatnot, I would say the effect comes off amateurish and disruptive.

Face lights must be customized to suit the scene, and there are situations when a face light simply will not compliment an avatar. In my own experience, face lights tend to work best in evenly lit environments, whether by local lighting or sunlight.

I do not mind subtle, single source face lights. I simply do not believe they are very flattering outside a rather limited number of scenarios.

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Carter-Madhu

Yes, this is terrible - but, no one in this thread is defending the 10,000 watt avatar.

Arilynn

Ann, I have said repeatedly that I don't expect most users to know that. I said it again in the post you quoted. Here's the full quote, with added bolding:
The bad decision comes from people who are able to adjust WL. This means they have the knowledge to do so or the ability to access the information, which should include everyone who has participated in most of this discussion thus far and not new users.

Ann Launay

But you don't need to find it flattering. If it appeals to the av vanity of the person using it, that's all that matters. And this isn't the real world anyway, so 'unnatural' really isn't an issue...in SL, it's perfectly plausible that an avatar will have an invisible lighting crew following them around at all times.

Mourna Biziou

I'm just as vain (if not moreso) as any facelight advocate. One of the reasons I choose the WL route is b/c the worst you can look with a facelight is much much worse than the worst you can look without it.

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Arilynn

I am the same, Mourna. I don't use facelights because I don't want to look ridiculous to others who may have different settings. This is vanity on my part. But I also don't want to disrupt a build's original lighting scheme.