Circle Widdershins

oh carp... please say it isn't so.....

I've been following the JIRA for the phantom script issue for a while now and just today a new comment came up about proposed script limits on standard sims. Apparently this is in direct breach of the promise made last year that the script limits would only apply to Homestead and Openspace sims. The comment was that Babbage Linden had stated it in his office hours that every sim on the grid will be given limits based on how much land you own.

AND that current rumour has the script limit at 1 script per 6 prims that the sim supports.

The ramifications (if this is true) are pretty big - for everyone from sim owners to scripted content creators to people trying to rez their scripted items!

Does anyone know if these limits really are going to be put in place? And if yes what are the specualtions about how many scripts per sim?

*Discuss*

Sorry if this has been posted before.

__________________
Garden Isles Estate
Treasures ~ Jewelry and Accessories

FlipperPA Peregrine

I really hope they do introduce script limits based on land ownership - at least on the main land. For too many years, people have used and abused this, and even extorted. I also hope it isn't "script per prim" - I hope it is how many resources your script is using in relation to your land mass.

__________________
Peregrine Salon: Flip & Jenn's thang.

Lewis Luminos

I heard that it wasn't so much the number of scripts but how much... um... processing time? or something... they use up.

__________________
-- Just Add Ginger -- -- Plurk -- -- last.fm -- -- flickr --

Parker McTeague

That would be a half a script on a 16m plot. Sounds reasonable.

__________________

also you can read my blog!

Eata

I think a lot of people would become very suprised at how many scripts their attachments and HUDs hold.

I don't think SL is too bad for the number of scripts you need to use but some things force you into using multiple and would be using less if there were lower function delays and functions that were better for doing bulk changes that force you to use multiple scripts to get anything done in a reasonable time.

Anya Ristow

LL has a bad track record for throttling the wrong thing. Take, for example, just about all the fixed-time delays that are built into certain LSL functions.

compare...

A door script that does 10 object updates very quickly to simulate slow movement, and then sits idle for four days before it's used again.

A fading store display that updates every 0.2 seconds 24/7.

The former uses 5 scripts. The latter uses 2. That is, to get around the 0.2s delay, the door maker uses multiple scripts. The display maker isn't happy about the 0.2s delay (his product would be smoother without it) but can still get his resource-intensive script working without trickery. He can "improve" his product, doubling the number of updates, by adding one more script.

Not only have the time delays encouraged people to add more scripts, those scripts are also larger and more complex than they'd need to be otherwise, and involve the overhead of script-to-script communication, some of which is implemented very badly.

Then there are poor design decisions that make additional scripts necessary. For example, texture animations. They don't survive click-drag copying, so you have to have a script for each prim with a texture animation that does nothing but start the animation. Those scripts wouldn't be necessary at all if there was a llSetLinkTextureAnim function.

Think memory limits will work any better? Suppose I have a product that uses more memory based on usage. Think, for example, of everything that has an access list. I don't want the thing to fail weeks after it's rezzed, because the customer isn't going to know why it failed. He's probably not going to be around to get the error on the debug channel (LL's probable means of informing the user the script failed because of memory limits).

One solution? Grab all the memory I'm going to need from the start. Anything that needs an access list will suck 64K right away, even for the 99% of customers who will never have more than a couple people on the access list. That way if it's going to fail it will happen right away and the customer has a chance of figuring out why. Let someone else's product fail later because I've hogged the memory.

__________________

Vengeance Studio Gadget Store

Chalice Yao

Note: The limit isn't about the amount of scripts. It's about the amount of memory the scripts use. There won't be a limit on the -amount- of scripts, at least to current plans.

Basically:

* Each parcel will have a total allowed amount of script memory used, based on its size.

* Each avatar will also have their own total pool of script memory used by attachments

* LSL will get functions with which scripts can request memory

* The memory-limit per script will be dropped in case of MONO

* At first, the used memory per parcel/av will only be displayed, not limit-enforced, so people can get used to it and/or modifiy very hungry scripts accordingly.

It's a mixed blessing, but if they do it right, it shouldn't affect the average avatar (read: those without dozens of huds and whatever) or parcels (unless they have shittons of resource hungry scripts), and overall improve things.

__________________
"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" - George Carlin

Chalice Yao

I should add, the main reason they are adding this is that there is currently no limit on total script memory used per sim. If the sim's assigned ram can't hold script memory anymore, stuff gets swapped to disk.

This is a -catastrophic- performance drain not only on the region with the memory-intensive scripts, but on -all- regions residing on the server. It is one of the major reasons for total messed up sim lag in script-laden sims, and I presume one of the big causes is 20+ avatars with tons of scripted attachments, especially HUDs. It is good that they are doing this.

Psyke Phaeton

It's about time they got serious. Oh and I still want land based personal database.

__________________

Chalice Yao

Now if they only added a llSetLinkText, llLinkScriptState, llLinkResetOtherScript, llLinkParticleSystem and llGetLinkPrimitiveParams, several major reasons for people also using dozens of scripts in their products would also vanish, and they -could- limit actual script amount to 50 scripts per whole object (or heck, even 30) with the mem-limit per mono script being dropped

But alas, until those functions ever get implemented, quite alot of time will pass.

FlipperPA Peregrine

While I agree with what you say, Residents have an even worse track record at doing anything efficiently when it comes to resources, unless they are forced to do so (and, more importantly, to learn the reasons *why* being efficient with resources is important). How many times have you seen a 32-bit targa texture that is actually solid at 1024x1024 on something smaller than a meter? Before the Ahern/Morris welcome area was re-designed, but after it was the boardwalk, even it was a major offender in this way - Bedazzle had a great vision for creating lovely places, but were horrid when it came to efficiency.

Throttling script resources has been done at the server level quite often, through virtualization - look at any hosting company like Dreamhost. Similar technologies could be used here, giving each plot a certain amount of resources proportional to amount of land owned in the sim.

Regards,

-Flip

Eata

Bulk alpha, colour and texture changes, taking a list or range of prims.
Colour change, alpha change and rotation change between X and Y over Z time.

I think a lot of LSL has been designed in a way that encourages exactly the kind of things the lindens don't like. We didn't even have link operations for ages and we don't really have batch operations.

I think it's a lot of BS in general. You give a load of beginner and intermediate scripters a toolset with no performance monitoring and laughable memory usage monitoring stuff with a load of fixed delays and lack of batch operations and unsuprisingly they end up writing stuff with far more overhead that sidesteps your delays by parallising things. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Chalice Yao

I swear, I will do a running streak through my fave sandbox the day they implement full script time and memory monitoring tools in the client for any scripts you wear and have rezzed in the sim.

Gods, that'd be so awesome.

Beebo Brink

Advance notice requested.

__________________

Daisy Rimbaud

Yep, this was posted on recently. My fear is that it's going to break content, which is always a headache.

Talwyn Mills

Does that mean MONO scripts wont be limited like this? If so, whats the point? Everyone will just switch over to mono versions of their HUDs and objects if they can...

Khamon

No Talwyn, the point is that residents will keep using the maximum amount of resource we can suck out of the system. Most people simply don't care what effect hundreds of tiny twisted prims, overly large textures, and dozens of badly written scripts have on everyone else as long as their precious little house and avatar looks fabulously primo.

That sounded bitter because I've worked with people complaining about lag, asking for my help, then refusing to pack away horribly abusive, yes I mean abusive, items because they just couldn't live without that tray of talking food or securely locked and sealed and useless silly door or the dancing dolphin flying physically around the sim.

It's just human nature to have to wear my massively scripted flexible wings or my thousand prim dragon av to the event that's trying to host a few dozen participants. The only way to make the world work is to impose these types of limits on people because we will not impose them on ourselves. I was convinced of that four years ago when we started campaigning and am so very glad FULL finally listened enough to at least pay some lip to it.

__________________
But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song. - Quenta Silmarillion

Please Visit Our Gardens and Our Website

Khamon

Did I kill another thread? Hate when that happens.

Ariane

This issue fascinates me.

Who could have possibly forseen these issues in 2003 when the platform was set up?

If they do anything about it, every player will be affected one way or another.

We should learn a lesson here, but I do not see any of the open sim grids setting rules early in this regard.

There should be max prims per avatar, texture limits, as well as script memory and script count limits. Can you imagine the hell it would create if they implemented this now?

__________________
ArianeB's Life in the Metaverse and Blog

Liona Clio

Well, is there an established etiquette onto how much scripting/prims you should wear?

I currently have Mystitool, Huddles, and Siggy's Mood HUD on my standard avi build, and I wear prim shoes, prim skirt and prim jacket. And, of course, AD flexihair.

To me, this seems reasonable. But maybe I'm hogging too many resources. Anyone have a good idea on how much is too much?

__________________


"Well, my days of not taking you seriously have certainly come to a middle."

Especially at night, I worry over situations I know will be alright. Perhaps it's just imagination. Day after day it reappears. Night after night, my heartbeat shows the fear. Ghosts appear and fade away... -Colin Hay

Talwyn Mills

My point, Khamon, was that Chalice's post made it sound like limits would not apply to MONO scripts, I was requesting clarification because of the glaring stupidity of the whole thing if that is the case.

But I don't see the point in memory limits anyway, firstly because (as others have said) we simply don't have the tools (unless you happen to have an empty sim to hand) to work out if our scripts are efficient or not. And with the lack of certain functionality and huge built in delays, LSL isn't designed for efficient design.

Anyway, limiting memory is stupid. The issues with script load isn't the amount of memory used (excepting the TP-in case where the memory in use needs to be transferred from one sim to another) but is the amount of CPU cycles the scripts use. Listen to the community suggestions about new functionality, and drop some of the stupid LSL delays and we might get somewhere.

JennL

how are they going to implement this ? That is the issue. I mean really how can you do it properly and fairly?

Are you going to penalise the socialable sims and turn SL even more into a wasteland? Are you going to protect those that are antisocial ? How are you going to balance limiting sim scripts with avi scripts, whats the point if you dont ?

Its like sticking a plaster on the titanic

Talwyn Mills

Think of CoLA, empty.. A ghost city

Ironic really..

Eata

Uh.... anyone really. Always expect the worst

Problems would have been mitigated if we are able to get a decent idea of the overhead of an object or a script but instead you can only really make a guess from the sim stats, which are thrown off by noise and hard to measure with how things are driven by user I/O.

Really it's a game theory thing, no limits with no measurements gives you people doing whatever.

Khamon

Second Life is not a game; it's a world; it's endlessly scalable and supports infinite resources. Don't they teach you anything at school Eata.