talisien

I just noticed this in server 1.26

I can now track avi script time from the estate tools

this is from the release notes:

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Talisien the Undead Prince of Darkness, Who Searches the Night on an Endless Quest to Drain Life from All Who Have the Misfortune to Cross His Path, or Road, or in Some Cases, Four Lane Superhighway, On Account of He Likes to Travel In His Carriage of Doom, Drawn by Six Black, Skeletal Zombie Horses and Built from the Bones and Skins of His Victims, Esq, PhD, MSW.

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Eata

I imagine you are sarcastic but just in case...!

Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences (most notably economics), biology, engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others.

Talwyn Mills

As I recently tried to describe the issue to a friend, imagine all cars were government made and none had speedometers. Imagine then that the government suddenly implements speed limits and fined anyone who event over them, but still didn't make cars with speedometers. Wouldn't you be pissed if you were fined?

Eata

Car analogy!

Khamon

That's an excellent analogy Talwyn. Can you image what the roads would be like if no speedometers or speed limits existed? Useless perhaps, at least extremely dangerous, do you think people would be sensible and unselfish about it?

That's Second Life now. What solution do you propose? Or will you maintain that it's not really a problem?

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Beebo Brink

Just like the issue of extremely explicit adult content, dealing with it before, rather than later, would have been much easier on everyone.

Even though LL didn't do the right thing back then, is that sufficient reason to never address the issues again? We'll face this kind of major disruption if LL ever listens to the screaming pleas for improved avatar mesh. Do we just live with the crap mesh we've got because improvements would be disastrous for fashion designers and possibly destroy my tuxedo collection?

I don't think there are any easy answers. Recognizing the world of pain that will waft through in waves, I'm still bascially in favor of biting the bullet and instituting changes that over time will improve the grid.

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Ciaran Laval

If you don't impose limits, people won't take responsibility. At RL work I impose email limits and have people whine at me all the time, ranging from "I don't have time to sort it out", which means they're not prepared to manage it to people who challenge me to look at their emails because they can't possibly be over their limit and then get all pissy when I point out the 10MB "Funny video clip" is the problem, or the stupidly sized photos someone sent them.

However if I'd not imposed limits from the start and then introduced them I'd have had a lot more pissed off users, so LL need to introduce this sensibly and I honsetly don't think LL are capable of doing that, too often the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at LL.

JennL

Actually driving down the autobahn in Germany is good fun so that argument fails. Why is it good fun, its well designed.

I'm not against limits, just scared the way LL will implement it.

JennL

in fact introducing the right speed limits at the right places works so much better than a blanket limit...imagine if all the roads were set to 20mph....

I thought they were going to introduce some kind of certification system, what happened with that? Surely as in rl business this helps weed out poor scripters but allows them to aspire to that level ?

I dont script in sl as i do that in rl and dont want a second job but it would appeal to me when i am buying something i know its from a trusted source.

Talwyn Mills

My point, which you seem to totally miss Khamon, is not that limits are bad (as long as they are well thought out, though knowing LL they'll fail on that too) but that you can't have limits without some method of measuring yourself against those limits.

You can't have speed limits without speedometers, you can't have download limits without a meter somewhere telling you how much data you've downloaded (though someone really needs to tell BT that one).

From what I've heard, LL are saying we'll impose these limits on you and not give you any way to figure out how much of those limits your using, and deliberately crippling the interface your using causing you to have to use more resources to accomplish what you need to accomplish. And worse, the limits arn't logical. Memory usage (which doesn't differentiate between code and data in LSL) arn't going to help when its script run-time that is generally the problem.

On top of that, don't I remember LL saying they wouldn't be implementing script limits on full-prim sims when they were planning them on Homestead and Void sims?

Talwyn Mills

The analogy fails somewhat Ciaran because the people your imposing limits on are not paying you for a service. I believe most people would be unhappy if they purchased a service under one set of terms which was suddenly limited in some way.

talisien

It appears that they are implementing some coding to measure scripts on avatars, at least on their side.

I'm not sure what they are planning, hell, THEY aren't sure what they are planning, but at least they realize there is a problem that needs to be fixed, how they do that, we won't know until it's done and over with and we will have to live with the fallout.

As of the latest server code, they have implemented a way to track avi's via the estate tools, so I'm hoping that there will also be a way for normal, non estate owning people to be able to track it as well, preferrably on a per object basis, although I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Khamon

I'm not missing your point Talwyn. We've consistently asked for methods of clocking our footprints on The Grid All Hail The Central Grid as well as the imposition of reasonable limits. I'm gonna miss that phrase. What FULL have given us so far are that useless avatar view thingy and top scripts which they've now admitted doesn't work properly.

Is the common opinion that nothing should be done and the world will just continue as is?

Talwyn Mills

Each to their own opinion there, but with LL's history (ARC, age validation, prices on Homesteads and the "adult" continent) they

1. Arn't going to listen to us anyway
2. Going to implement something that many people agree is completly stupid
3. Implement it badly
4. And screw it up totaly in the process.

Now if my guesses are true, I may find one day that every vendor in my store stops working or working reliably for god knows how long. So I won't be able to make any money to pay for my sim, but since SL is still running, LL will still want paid.

So yes, right now and given LL's track history, I'd prefer the status quo.

Eata

They found out that people actually drive at a speed they feel comfortable with.

I don't think it compares as this is more of a resources question and cars are more safety.

Miriel Enfield

Unless LL fucks this up badly -- and they may -- any decently written vending script should be okay. Most vending scripts spend much of their time doing nothing, and when they are active, they're not doing a huge amount of stuff.

I suspect that, like LL's other poorly done attempts to measure and/or ration things (prim system, ARC), whatever they come up with will work okay a rough majority of the time. Okay, but not great. The rest of the time, it will work badly and create perverse incentives.

Talwyn Mills

I agree, but how many people are going to trust paying their money to something that works OK and not great.

I deal with three or 4 issues a day where payment events havn't been picked up (I get paid but the vendors don't think so) or items havn't been delivered. If that gets worse, how many people are just not going to bother?

Miriel Enfield

They already do. See: all of SL.

Again, I don't think that vending scripts are generally going to have issues under this. It's not the relatively simple stuff like vendors that a crappy rule is likely to break.

Circle Widdershins

It's really interesting for me to see a discussion like this because I am not a scripter but just a user of scripts, and a sim owner. When I originally saw that this type of limiting was a possibility (and now I understand better the pros and cons - thanks! ) I had visions of a) poorly implemented/draconian limits and tenants screaming that the sim isn't working properly because their scripted stuff is failing; and b) people in general having to replace a shedload of stuff in inventory which may need updating to meet with requirements/limits.

If LL wants to implement limits on scripts both on the avatar and on the sim then it is going to have to organise a massive education campaign for the majority of residents who don't understand the impact of scripts.

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Khamon

If this is the case, they should leave it. FULL are not capable of mounting a successful massive education campaign. The differences in opinion seem to boil down, again, to those of us who consider this a beta project and want the software development to continue, and those of you who consider it a functioning world and want the service to remain static.

Second Life is the result of FULL consistently trying to please both camps.

JennL

Who said we wanted development to stop? What i want stopped is mickey mouse sticky on plastering to fix things.

Thats a bit of a statement by you and a little bit off just because they dont agree with you on one point. The point most people were arguing on, was the way their past experience tells them how LL will implement it. Hopefully we are wrong but I really cant see how they can do this correctly.

Things like a new Mesh, I'm all for even if it does break existing clothing. I'm not even against limiting scripting if they did it properly, fairly and in a way those not as technically advanced as your self understand. When i buy something scripted how do i know it is well scripted and how much resource it takes up ?
Its like buying a car and not knowing how much mpg it does.
If they can do that then ...well lets go then....

Circle Widdershins

Umm… I think dividing grid users into two teams like that is too simplistic Khamon.

People who understand all the implications of scripts and software are in the minority of the grid’s population. And to brand everyone else as wanting a static service is ridiculous. The people who realise that this grid is an exercise in continuous experimentation would be a majority group, even if they don’t have intimate knowledge of how it works. Static is never a word that comes to mind when I think of SL.

Stability however – that would be a word I’m keen on. And in no way does stability preclude development. In fact I would have thought that stability is essential to development. The majority of users haven’t got the technical knowledge to know how all the software works. Does that make them unworthy of using it? Does their money pouring in (funding the development) somehow count for less?

From reading all the posts in this thread I am convinced that script limits are a good thing for the continued development and stability of the grid. My only concern is how that is going to be implemented and the impact on users. Educating the population is the best first step LL can take in my opinion. Maybe they haven't been capable of that in the past, but for a change as dramatic as this they'd better make a bloody good effort.