Coyote Momiji

Why do I have the urge to get out the wool clippers...?

mcgeeb Gupte

Simon denied any wrongdoing.

"They can say whatever they want to say," he said. "It's a video game."

He also said the plaintiffs found their "evidence" by taking pictures inside his Second Life home. He contended that if he could be sued in real life for what goes on in Second Life, then U.S. search and seizure laws should also apply in the virtual world.


This guy just doesn't get it. Nice photo too.

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Coyote Momiji

....

Mo'ron.

Oneironaut Escher

Based on Stroker's doc and those quotes, I'm thinking he's going to try and go the route of 'its all just a game, and for me stealing and griefing is part of the game'. I got this attitude a lot from griefers and content thieves as a Linden. This is a very flawed argument though and really pretty much is just an admittance of guilt. What I'd always point out to them is, if it's not a game, the rl laws apply (which I think is the reality) or if SL is a game, then games have rules, and for SL, those rules are the TOS. Claiming the 'Its a Game' exemption I think is actually the faster way to getting yourself in trouble as the Game's rules are more clearly defined than current rl laws regarding virtual IP.

Wildefire Walcott

Well this is nothing unique to Linden Lab- young studios are always more "in touch" with their audience as they're trying to craft their game to meet their fans' expectations, and before the product has been released or gained many players. But once it goes live and/or develops a major following, the studio's priorities and responsibilities become more complex and it's almost inevitable that they pull back from the community a bit.

Players need to understand this (especially the oldbies who were there since beta and feel scorned now), but the company could do things to be a little more transparent and enable players to protect themselves a little more as well. There's still some growth required on both sides of this fence.

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Cocoanut Koala

For a long time - over a year? two years? - I've known that this is exactly the game plan.

They want all such in-world problems to be handled by the individuals themselves, in real-world court.

That much has been obvious.

And no - I don't think they are quite so wide-eyed and surprised as you depict them. Anyone who lets EVERYBODY join without any cost, barrier, or identification (not even so much as a verifiable screen name in the beginning!), is pretty much asking for it, and knows it.

coco

Cocoanut Koala

Well, if it comes to all that, SL wouldn't be worth the effort for me.

It would make more sense to make real-world items and sell them for money or to go into another online environment and get the pleasure of creating things for other people without all this headache.

coco

Cocoanut Koala

3) Add "your honor" at the end of what you say. (My lawyer nudged me and told me to do that.) Not just "Yes," or "No," but the frequent "Yes, your honor," and "No, your honor."

coco

mcgeeb Gupte

So his response to the lawsuit would be "It's just a game, your honor." ?

Cocoanut Koala

Yeah, lol.

coco

Sooz Pascale

First, let me say that I am very pleasantly surprised by the wealth of intelligent commentary on this issue by, mostly, lay people - non attorneys. Well done all of you.

Next to reiterate some sound advice from Coco, I believe, to the plaintiffs, do NOT discuss this with anyone, unless specifically advised to do so by your lawyer.

As we have seen in the Leatherwood case, out of court statements can and often will come back to haunt you.

To the six plaintiffs, my undying respect and admiration go to you. It takes great courage to "out" your RL identity. I believe that, although a certain amount of self interest is involved, your courage is actually helping ALL decent, honest SL resdients, even the non creative, useless typs like me. Well done!!

As for LL. Well, I think they COULD do more to stop fraud [this is just one example of a widespread SL disease]. I don't know any of these people and have no real desire to, BUT the IMPRESSION I get is that many of these folk think that fraud, the land bot expoits are but another example, is COOL and its the COOL scripters etc, fleecing a bunch of dumb ass noobs and non techies so "soooo what!". THIS attitude will eventually cause them great grief, and the sooner the better.

LL is at a point now where they can't really straddle the fence any more. they have to make a stand and by that I mean DEEDS NOT TALK. they need to stand FOR fraud or against it. If they don't sooner or later THEY will be defendants in yet another lawsuit and the negative PR aspects alone should make them THINK.

One, I appreciate your thoughtful posts and you do actually know LL. All I can tell you is what I as a probably typical SL-er with no connections to speak think. Basically LL thinks of us the same way carnival workers think of the rubes and chumps who wonder into county fairs and third rate circuses. we're just marks to be fleeced, if not by them, then by someone else. If they REALLY don't fel that way, they need to change the way they do business...period.

Good job plaintiffs and good job to all who have comented here. I wish you ALL the success in the world on this.

Sooz

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Nothing sickens me more than the closed door of a library - Barbara Tuchman

Cocoanut Koala

That wasn't my advice; I only added the "your honor" part to it.
coco

WarKirby Magojiro

Ladies and Gentlemen, I givve you, Rase Kenzo:

Aimee Weber

Cristiano

Just look at how a little negative press about age play and child porn made them suddenly move heaven and earth for a little while. If only something would shame them enough into action in regards to the rapid amount of theft that goes on in SL while they turn a blind eye (as long as you aren't gambling!).

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"For my part, I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars makes me dream" - Vincent Van Gogh

* my blog *

Cindy Claveau

Ok, which one of you played games on the NY Post comments

Cindy Claveau

Surreal

I'm pleased to see this going forward and kudos to Stroker and all involved in chasing down these losers.

However, Linden Lab has got to step up to the plate. At a minimum with a change to permissions, closure for known exploits, and some method of registering IP.

Why? Because what Stroker is doing works while the plaintiffs are in the US, or even perhaps Canada or Western Europe. But once you get into countries where even the US Feds can't leverage to get pirating enterprises shut down, there is no hope of individuals doing so.

I could set up in Indonesia right now and the only people who could stop me would be Linden Lab.

Just a thought.

Stroker Serpentine

Excellent point Surreal. As Aimee also pointed out, we are on the road to seeded torrents here. There is no consequential disencentive for these 'tards, short of having their pictures on the front page of the New York Post. U.S. Federal litigation is probably the most expensive form of recourse. Settlements notwithstanding. I dont particularly enjoy ostracizing anyone. I have much better things to do with my time. These cases are a drain on everyone's emotions and productivity.

Sure...I can make new sex beds or clothing or furnishings. I will tell you this however, it's damn hard to muster the motivation to do so, when I have to compete with the very bastards who are stealing from me!

As Grampa Whitehead used to ever so elloquently proclaim,
"It's time to shit or get off the pot!"

These "scriptkiddies" and "haxxors" will never prevail. We know who they are. We know how they operate. Given the proper tools and features we can make an airtight case for their asses to be booted right back into the stoneage where they came from. Scams are prevelant, always will be. Has anyone Googled "Second Life Cheats" lately?

If Linden Lab is too short staffed to deal with these matters then SAY SO!. We have Mentors/Liasons/Concierge, why cant we have IP Investigators? Call them "Arbitrators" or something politically correct. I will volunteer my time. Implement features that will make it blatantly obvious to everyone the activities of the offenders. Virtual courtrooms will never work because these people deny any responsibility to the very end. Power misuse and/or abuse will make the system suspect.

IP ban their asses fgs!! Give them a course to appeal the ban. If their creations are legitimate, I am sure it would not be difficult to provide the evidence to substantiate their claim(s). Guilty until proven innocent? Maybe. If insurrmountable evidence met a benchmark, hit them over the head with the TOS. It basically says you can delete an account for any reason anyways.

Sure, they will create an alt account and re-hang their shingle. And we will ferret them right back out again. Their greed is the single underlying factor that will ultimately lead to their demise. By nature I am not a vindictive person. However, there should be no hesitation in these matters. They already know they are stealing..its part of the attraction for them. Warnings and/or a three day hiatus will have absolutely no impact as a deterrent. This isnt griefing. It's THEFT! In many countries theft is dealt with severly. A tempban will only focus their efforts.

(I am reminded of a 70's Cheech and Chong's excerpt here..."Baliff, Whack his Pee-Pee" It was on a vinyl album..yesss vinyl)

We're not talking about a MySQL rewrite here. Common sense dictates that there is no single solution in all matters.
By making OUR jobs easier to detect and inform, we can in turn make THEIR (LL) job easier to dispense with scammers and their ilk.

In a few days this issue will again fall to the wayside for the examination and adjudication of the next "Soup de jour" I challenge ALL of you to keep the focus on this. Share the links..send the emails...call your Congressman if you are so inclined (tongue in cheek) Let's galvanize our efforts and offer suggestions. Be a part of the solution..not the problem.

Linden Lab.. I submit, we know the grid BETTER than you do.
Listen to your subscriber's and developers. Reach out and be proactive. DMCA lipservice and apathy will only, ultimately, lead to more litigation. We love SL. Lets not surrender it without a fight.

Who will end up taking LL to task on this? The Community or the Courts? Personally, I hate courtrooms.

/me steps down from his soapbox

Asri Falcone

what people fail to realize is that LL (who IS now starting to realize), that by taking legal action LL can also be held responsible for the actions of the citzens.By them being aware of the violations and not doing anything about it they become accomplices in the theft. If LL didnt realize that they can legally be held responsible for the actions of the people in SL then, they wouldnt have banned gambling when the law stepped in. If anything...this will hopefully FORCE them to take an active role rather then just sit back with the usual hands off approach.

Cristiano

Welcome, Asri! Nice to see you here. One thing that was a bit different about the gambling crackdown is that LL faced the threat of losing payments from credit card companies because of the laws surrounding online gambling. Banks cut off support for payments to gambling sites under pressure from Congress a anti-gambling law that slipped in under the radar.

So far, I don't see LL viewing themselves as having any liability in these situations - it will take a legal smack in the face to establish that they are at least partially liable. Good luck in your case, it is an important legal precedent to set.

Joshua Nightshade

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Cubey Terra

Regarding Linden Lab's lack of response to DMCA takedown notices, who takes them to task for that? I thought they were required by law to comply with the DMCA, but from what I've heard, LL treats compliance as optional. I'm guessing that this is a case of law that's made but never enforced? But if that's the case, why do so many web hosts comply with DMCA takedown notices?

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Cubey Terra
Cubey Terra @ SL Marketplace
www.cubeyterra.com

Joshua Nightshade

If they don't comply, they can be sued for also infringing/enabling copyright violations.

The DMCA basically says as long as someone complies with it, they can't be punished. But if they fail to comply they can be included in a lawsuit. Or in worst case someone could send a DMCA to LL's hosting site against SL, claiming that LL is failing to honor the DMCA, which would cause a resonance cascade of things I'm frightened to think of.

It'd require someone to sue them though, or file a DMCA on a higher echelon than LL.

mcgeeb Gupte

If this is true and they aren't reacting fast enough, they are leaving the door open for them to be brought into court aren't they? Even a case like this one, is it that difficult to ban the guy or at least force him to take his stuff down? They ban other people for lesser reasons, why isn't theft one of them?