armozel

In general, I agree that LL seems to lack any understanding of what they've gotten themselves into, but then again how many people envisioned heavier than air craft would be a global phenomena or predict the possible strategies to handle them?

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Tya

because they can and because we have paid for it because we want it.

Brenda Connolly

More of a reason to move ahead carefully, and think about the consequences, weigh their decisions. Instead they go like a man stomping through a minefield with his hands over his ears. There's pioneering, and then there's plain recklessness.

Beebo Brink

If Open Space sims were a brand new product offering, I might, just barely might, agree with that analogy. But Open Space sims have been around for quite awhile, perfectly suited for the purpose that LL noted in the knowledge base.

The crux of the issue is why would LL delberately not just change, but significantly upgrade the technical possibilities and loosen the restrictions of owning a sim that was supposed to continue being used in the exact same way as before? This move begs the question of what they were trying to accomplish, and the only possible answer was to improve the appeal of those sims outside of the category in which they had resided.

Neither is your analogy pertinent to the way in which LL has consistently ignored the stated desires of residents involving sim performance on the mainland, ad farmers, a whole host of other quality-of-life issues that have never gotten traction. I'm willing to cut them a lot of slack when they're forging new territory, but not when they have all the information they need to implement improvements and fixes that matter to us, their paying customer base, and they ignore them.

Time after time they have ignored resident input concerning planned policy changes that ended up being just as problematic as everyone had warned them about. That's when they even bother to ask. If a situation can possibly be made worse, they will find a way to fubar it.

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Rema Quandry

No offense taken.

I learned a long time ago that talk and negotiation typically have a better chance at succeeding than does warfare . . . in most environments . . .and I've worked with people a very long time in many hostile environments.

So the comment was not meant to be condescending . . . nor was it all that naive. My comments were based on extensive personal and professional experience in RL.

As for ludicrous, time may tell; you might be right.

However, if people just give up and move on OR give up and roll their eyes and do nothing OR insist on holding onto "it's always been this way, and it'll never change", then the status quo remains. As a result, pointing at LL and stating that "as it has been so it shall be" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's important to note that the past does not always automatically determine the future (as correlation is not necessarily causation). Assuming that LL of 2003 is the same organization as LL of 2008 ignores organizational turnover, which has to have occurred . . . and we know did occur. They aren't the same LL.

Specifically, if my understanding is correct, LL has a relatively new CEO. Perhaps he's the one that should be targeted in some of these efforts. He may also be the force behind the current bad decision(s)/policy(ies) . . . so he needs to learn.

I've been involved with many such corporate changes of this sort before, and the new head guy or gal always initially stumbles . . . sometimes badly. All too often they're trying to make their mark on the business.

People like Jack Linden are "buffers" meant to keep the heat of upper management.

Brenda Connolly

Exactly why I am a basic account now. The benefits of premium, mainly "Owning Land" were no longer of any interest to me. My uses for SL are well served by being a basic. As long as that continues, I will stay basic. Much the same reason I keep my free AOL email account, even though I left AOL as my ISP when I went to cable. It still serves my purposes.

Beebo Brink

My point is that we all know that, and agree. But we have tried that tactic until we're blue in the face, and it has not worked with LL. Ever.

Rebel Television

I look at it from the average price for an MMO. Going by the World of Warcraft standard, that's $15 a month, plus a $50 expansion every 3 years or so. The people who moved into OSes loved SL so much that they were willing to pay the price of five subscriptions, and as for expansions, those are more than covered by the cost of the land itself. That is a heck of a lot of good faith. And seeing how LL treats those with good faith in them is a shocker, even when I myself don't own land.

If I DID pay tier on an OS, I'd be curious as to whether I could multi-box a five man instance right about now.

Cocoanut Koala

Philip has said before, they have this emphasis on always moving ahead, never staying still long enough to really test something, or think about it.

They think otherwise they will become "stagnant," but it also has a pretty down side, too.

coco

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armozel

Actually I think my analogy still sticks, but not as you conceived it. Rather think about the whole idea of a public VR environment/system and what sorts of concepts spawned it. Many of them are old ideas just redone with better technology and effects, but the reality is that much of the actual implementation and management of such an environment/system is very new. The price hike is just proof that old traditional assumptions of if a product costs you more that the long term solution is to raise the price by whatever amount (calculated rightly) don't work. The general 'rebellion' against the price hike is proof that people have different ideas about the situation than they would if it were just a price hike at the gas pump (which was almost 200% in some places this year) or any other product/service. But the reality is also that computing the costs of computing (heh, circular definition? not sure, someone chime in, plz...) is unpredictable and often the price you get is one that is at volume-sales level where profit is quite slim.

I only know this to be true for website and MUD hosting, so I can't say that this analysis is 100% correct, but I do know that LL does have to deal with the immense costs of bandwidth and power (to power the servers themselves and to power all systems that maintain the servers like the central climate control systems) which are both in flux (inevitably to rise in the current free fall that all currencies are currently experiencing). So, it's entirely possible that OS simulators were just simply uneconomical at the tier rates they offered. But I do think their sudden price hike was silly, since they were not talking about means to mitigate the price hike in some fashion (reward program for all who conserve OS simulator usage like how utilities reward individuals who conserve power and such...) before hand. Even possibly working on a temporary overage charge scheme to deincentivize OS simulator abusers from using them for clubs and malls. Thus, using more indirect less obtuse methods to reshape the current consumption of resources without making it harder for the general land users to actually do what they do best: use land that keeps users coming and depositing RL currency for Linden currency.

Anyways, that's just my own speculation on the situation, but in the end I think despite the short term headaches and heartaches that the tier price hike will deal out that this will be better for everyone involved (perhaps not for LL...) in that it will incentivize those who feel cheated to try out other grids and really get the concept of wider public VR adoption to be possible.

Cristiano

The problem with that philosophy of his is that SL has become incredibly stagnant. Their recklessness has put them into a position where they can't roll out new features regularly to keep things interesting because they neglected things for so long they are barely holding the thing together with tape, smoke, and mirrors. So much of the feature base of SL is completely stagnant.

Some significant things have been added, but overall, SL should be a lot farther a long than it is, but their business and development decisions have now forced them into dedicating so many resources to just trying to keep the thing stable that they can't innovate or really move forward that much at all.

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement

* slu stuff *

Cristiano

If you look at it from a 10,000 foot view, you can clearly see LL repeating a pattern that has gone all the way back to the beginning. First, it was the ongoing battle of mainland residents who got stuck in a sim with asshole club and mall owners that sucked up all the resources of the sim. Instead of putting in technology to ensure that customers who were paying for something got the quality of service level they deserved, they brought out the private islands. They did nothing to help improve the mainland in part to drive people to the much more expensive private islands. Then, of course, once people were hooked, bam, major price increase.

The same thing has been repeated with Open Space sims - even though they kept the restriction of having to own an private island to get one, they knew full well a market would rise to get around that issue. They promoted them indirectly to the secondary market that didn't own a private island but would certainly go for an open space and its corresponding tier (it is a much more appealing product than what you get for the same price on the mainland).

Then, when they got people hooked, again, dramatic price increase. Instead of solving the problems that those who are misusing the open space sims are causing (deja vu from the club/mall situation) c by restricting resource use and dealing with it on a technical level, they are choosing to let all owners suffer for it and throwing in a massive price increase (who the fuck increases something 67% at once?).

Vintage Linden Lab behavior. I can only imagine what they will ultimately do to the mainland tier prices.

Cocoanut Koala

Well, you're talking to some people who've gone the talk and negotiation route for years. It wears you out, takes up valuable time, sometimes costs you personally, and ultimately, rarely accomplishes anything.

LL DOES make concessions on things which cause an outright revolt and they may be facing huge losses to themselves. I hear that happened before I joined SL, having to do with, what was it? Taxes or something?

Then there was the debut of Copybot, which saw huge numbers of stores going on strike and closing their doors. The upshot of that was that LL finally managed to spit out the idea that it was against TOS to copy other people's items without permission, and that "concession" nearly killed them.

Well, that was something, at least - better than the love letter to the copybotters they first responded with - and people reopened their shops.

At the same time, of course, the price for that "rebellion" was fanboyz ridiculing those who went on strike ever since, whenever the topic comes up, on the blog and on forums.

Their whole point being to cram it into our heads that we don't count, nothing we do or say matters, and we might as well sit down and shut up, and I'm pretty sure the Lindens don't mind their "support".

But for the most part, if you are around a while, you realize that for things not this big, LL will do what it wants, with NO concessions. They will take on suggestions that they don't hate, or that don't hurt their goals, and that is good, too, and a lot of companies might not listen even to that extent. (Not very long-lived or successful companies, but still . . .)

But if it is not part of their goals (often hidden), then you might as well spit into the wind to point out how what they want will be harmful in any way. If they are wired into the 5% good reason they think there is to have the thing, then 95% bad reasons don't matter a bit. If anyone can come up with one TINY reason to have the thing, that reason trumps all, if it is what they wanted in the first place.

What you don't know is they place a lot more value in the Super-Residents (their resident friends and cronies), who have already argued for the thing you are arguing against, but who are too cool for the meetings, which they don't have to go to anyway, since the Lindens consult them first anyhow.

It will be a waste of your time to even attend a single meeting on those topics. For your efforts, you will be put down by fanboyz, and may even be put down by Lindens.

That's partly why I'm so impressed with Bob Bunderfield in that meeting, where people were putting him down for not "being nice," and others were oh so eager to suck up to Robin (and I LIKE Robin), and talk about these hugely more important issues, such as the blog organization - ROFL GAG ME WITH A SPOON.

It takes a great deal to stand up to a Linden like that, what with the other residents treating you like you are a pariah, and talking FOR the Lindens.

Also, if the Lindens don't want to answer a question, they absolutely will not. Forget it. If you stumble on something that is part of their hidden agenda, and pose it as a direct question, you will NOT get an answer - you will in fact likely get yelled at.

Consequently, it all eventually comes down to whether SL is worth it or not, and whether talking to the Lindens, in meetings and so on, is worth it or not.

I used to think it was important to have SL be a great place, for content creators and regular residents alike, and important to keep people coming in, and to keep the new players happy.

But I think that that goal - my goal - isn't theirs anymore. At all.

So you get older players who get tired of attending meetings, getting put down by Lindens, getting ridiculed by the fanboyz, getting painted as a Bad Guy (though I rarely was painted that way) just because you weren't lapping at Linden's feet like a proper suck-up, when all your efforts are not likely to make even a dent in what they have already decided to do.

A huge rebellion like this, though - that might achieve some concessions. Even if so, though, there will be casualties, both during the crisis and for months afterward, because there is a LARGE group of Linden groupies who will try to ruin you forever after.

For example, the Project Open Letter: Of COURSE it did some good, in that it the Lindens noticed it, and paid it lip service for months thereafter. Yeah, I know, lip service only, but at least it was lip service that wasn't there earlier! (And it was too nice, really, and never moved on to Phase II because none of us had the stomach for it, to take it to the media, or anything.)

And you have bunches of people now who laugh at Cristiano and those who worked on POL for even trying - for not realizing that they are just ants who don't count anyway.

I could go on an on. And have, too much. But basically - no. It won't do you much more good to go about it in a "civilized" fashion than it does to go about it any other way. The Lindens do only what they want to do, and if forced, will do the LEAST of what they can to throw a bone to the masses.

If you've been in the trenches on enough of these things, and it's something the Lindens don't want, or something they are determined to do - you know you've just wasted your time, while the Lindens are getting PAID for their time, to pretend to be interested in your input. In actuality, quite often the only input they are interested in is (a) ways to do what they want to do more efficiently,(b) to gauge just how big the revolution is anyway, or (c) ratification of what they plan to do anyway, all so they can (d) be able to say they solicited (usually after-the-fact) "resident input."

You have a choice: Sit there and help them do what they want - for free, while they get paid for it, or sit there and make your statements, which they blow off, for free, while they get paid for it, and while you take crap.

The only way to really have any sort of influence with the Lindens is to be one of their chosen few. And don't ask me how you do that! I don't know because it's not something I would want to be.

I still make stabs at things, but more efficiently. For example, I made it clear to M Linden in one of the threads I knew he was following, and in a Hamlet blog entry he may or may not have been still following, how HORRENDOUS it is that a proportion of us can't use the Search All, or Showcase, or Groups (those portions of Search which have been "improved").

Even so, it's like throwing a message in a bottle into the ocean. But I don't give up hope. I think just maybe that might give a LITTLE push to fixing something that seems to me would be obviously crucial to anything that purports to be running a service or business of any kind.

***

Having said all that, I want to stress that there are a lot of Lindens who are very nice people, and truly do want to help the residents.* But let's face it: They simply aren't on our team.

(Sorry, you got me started. Never do that! haha)

coco

*And sometimes they are so into and enthusiastic about their ideas that you end up not wanting to change their plan at all because it is so DEFLATING to them! (In other words, it means more to them than it does to you. It takes away THEIR creativity.)

Cincia Singh

And the user base repeats it's behavior as well ... correct? Given an Open Space with enhanced capabilities the users exploited it even though we were told not to. Don't get me wrong LL did it's usual mistake as well. But I think my original analogy sticks ... just because my car CAN go 120 mph doesn't make it ok to go 120 mph.

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*My concern can be measured in micro give-a-shits, and I'm working on nanotechnology!*

Cristiano

I didn't say your analogy was invalid - I'm just saying, LL regularly takes advantage of the situation to upsell their customers instead of dealing with the abusers.

Cocoanut Koala

Good point.

As for this OS business, the crux of the matter isn't EVEN the raise of the monthly tier.

It would be one thing, for example, if my cable company decided to charge 67% more for my tv channels. I could decide if I wanted to do that or not.

But if the cable company had first suckered me into paying $300 or whatever (what do those open spaces cost?) just to come out to the house and hook it up, then I would be squawking.

Ditto for the regular islands. After paying 1200 or whatever, with NO contract - a contract that, for instance, you knew you would be paying so much a month for a year, and could figure the total cost accordingly - and they decide to suddenly jack up the monthly fee on that, what you are looking at is not just increased fees - but additionally the potential loss of your initial 1200.

(Not to mention the extra fee just for transferring ownership.)

That is the problem with this whole thing, I think. In that way, it is nothing like a restaurant that raised the prices on its menu, like people on the SL forums have been arguing.

coco

Brenda Connolly

So for fear of being stagnant, LL has sacrificed stability, which has now truly made SL stagnant. And because of this fear, they will rush ahead blindly, which will cause stability to suffer even more.........

Ann Launay

I love the instant karma with the kid who tries to toss the cat in the pool.

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Colette Meiji

Ohh wait, I know !

Fuck you LL !!

Taco Rubio

...first they came for the age-players, and I said nothing, as I wans't an age-player...

Roxie Marten

Show me a contract that states LL will keep the servers on forever
and if they turn them off they will give you back your money?
Contract is only as good as the paper it is written on.

You example of currency. It is still something you can put in your
pocket. It will always have some value if nothing more to burn for
warmth. It is tangible where a few electrons are not.

SL land has value because you have deemed it valuable. The day
that SL is no longer popular or viable. Virtual property
will become worthless. Some poor person will be left wondering
what happened. There will nothing that person can do.

Watching the land boom in SL has been like watching the gold rush days from history.
A few people got in early made their money.
The rest of the world sees this and runs in after them.
They are the ones left holding the bag in worthless claims.

It's tempting but count me out

Rox

__________________
"I don't have low self-esteem. I have low esteem for everyone else"


Something has changed within me
Something is not the same
I'm through with playing by the rules
Of someone else's game
Too late for second-guessing
Too late to go back to sleep
It's time to trust my instincts
Close my eyes and leap

It's time to try
Defying gravity
I think I'll try
Defying gravity
And you can't pull me down...

Rebel Television

Subjective value permeates everything in our lives, except maybe for oxygen. People eat McDonalds not just because they need the protein, but they've been raised to believe They're Loving It. And I'm sure someday, when we're living on the moon, we'll be breathing branded oxygen as well.

Second Life is a brand as well. That cute little hand carries with it everything Linden Labs does, for better or for worse. I personally do not give LL any money, in part for the reasons you've listed, but I've put a reasonable amount of sweat equity into the world. And I absolutely refuse to engage in schadenfreude towards those who were burned by this decision, because I know how it feels to think that cute little hand represents something meaningful.

Io Zeno

People also bought land just to, you know, use. Like any server space. They weren't playing games nor did they want to play games with LL.

Taco Rubio

seriously, what in the fuck is linden labs?

Rebel Television

The extraneous s is fun to say!