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Khamon · 10-31-2008, 02:56 PM

I believe Robin's office hour is beginning in Ambleside in a few minutes if anyone's interested in attending.

Macphisto Angelus · 10-31-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

You know I never assume on LL's part any evil intentions when simple incompetence is usually to blame but this IS classic bait and switch.

They may not have intended it at first, or maybe they did, but once they saw people buying up and using OSS sims for residences and commercial use, and encouraged it, knowing that once people got invested they could just raise the price through the roof, it is a *scam*.

And that is why residents are madder then ever. For awhile we have been leary of trusting LL, now we see perfect evidence that intended or not (and this kid says intended) LL has shown greed overrides logic.

Residents are not (EDIT: JUST) mad at the price increase (this is where LL is mistaken) they are betrayed.

Trout Recreant · 10-31-2008, 03:02 PM

I don't want to fly too far off topic here, but I have had a question nagging me about the use/abuse of OS' with regard to LL saying that they should be lived in.

This may just be my ignorance showing, but I don't understand what the problem with living in an OS was. I understand the prim limits and performance issues, and obviously why you wouldn't want to cut them up into small parcels and rent them out, but suppose I had an OS and I had a moderate home and some landscaping there. Maybe I sunk most of the land and had some space to sail a boat around. As long as I'm within the prim limit and I keep the scripted objects under control, why is that any different than having a wooded park to wander around in?

**Io Zeno** · 10-31-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macphisto Angelus

And that is why residents are madder then ever. For awhile we have been leary of trusting LL, now we see perfect evidence that intended or not (and this kid says intended) LL has shown greed overrides logic.

Residents are not mad at the price increase (this is where LL is mistaken) they are betrayed.

To me the price increase does matter because if you were using it for nothing but some landscaping/park or a single low prim residence, you are being driven out, your investment is worthless. If your tenants cannot pay more rent, you are out of business. If you simply are just covering the existing tier, you are now out of business.

They are clearly thinking that enough people are too invested to pull out and will fork over the money.

**Io Zeno** · 10-31-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout Recreant

I don't want to fly too far off topic here, but I have had a question nagging me about the use/abuse of OS' with regard to LL saying that they should be lived in.

This may just be my ignorance showing, but I don't understand what the problem with living in an OS was. I understand the prim limits and performance issues, and obviously why you wouldn't want to cut them up into small parcels and rent them out, but suppose I had an OS and I had a moderate home and some landscaping there. Maybe I sunk most of the land and had some space to sail a boat around. As long as I'm within the prim limit and I keep the scripted objects under control, why is that any different than having a wooded park to wander around in?

It makes no sense whatsoever, no one buys a sim and never sets foot in it, even a park is *visited*. Water sims are used for sailing, in scripted boats driven by avatars, no?

The whole excuse is rubbish.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khamon

I believe Robin's office hour is beginning in Ambleside in a few minutes if anyone's interested in attending.

Im sat here as an alt and Robin hasnt shown yet

**Io Zeno** · 10-31-2008, 03:15 PM

And as it has been said, a LOT of people had no problem whatsoever using the sim lightly. If they had some way to measure use or if LL set up a system to limit it, they would be fine living within those limits.

But LL never did that. LL increased the prim limits. Then acted like they had no clue what was going on, sure.

Rebel Television · 10-31-2008, 03:16 PM

If LL sticks to their modus operandi, there will be a few backdoor deals going on here. I doubt they want the sailing continent to have to shutter their windows. They will just never, ever acknowledge any discounts, as they don't want everyone and their dog to file a ticket asking for one.

Macphisto Angelus · 10-31-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

To me the price increase does matter because if you were using it for nothing but some landscaping/park or a single low prim residence, you are being driven out, your investment is worthless. If your tenants cannot pay more rent, you are out of business. If you simply are just covering the existing tier, you are now out of business.

They are clearly thinking that enough people are too invested to pull out and will fork over the money.

Oh, yes.. it matters. I didn't mean to imply it didn't. It is just that there are way more people sad and hurt and angry then just the people who have to make a decision in this new announcement.

The trust fell through for many.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout Recreant

I don't want to fly too far off topic here, but I have had a question nagging me about the use/abuse of OS' with regard to LL saying that they should be lived in.

This may just be my ignorance showing, but I don't understand what the problem with living in an OS was. I understand the prim limits and performance issues, and obviously why you wouldn't want to cut them up into small parcels and rent them out, but suppose I had an OS and I had a moderate home and some landscaping there. Maybe I sunk most of the land and had some space to sail a boat around. As long as I'm within the prim limit and I keep the scripted objects under control, why is that any different than having a wooded park to wander around in?

When the open space sims were attatched to the full prim sims and only had 1875 prims people lived in them, hell I know ppl that rented them as 'islands'. BHE did, Scotland did, loads of estate groups did. There was no complaint from LL about it them...so why did they come along and make them stand alone and increase the prim limit on them and then a few months down the line say...no no no there only for water or trees.

Its a load of bowchoplox

Edit add:- Robins just arrived.

**Io Zeno** · 10-31-2008, 03:18 PM

So ok, that is my rant for the day.

I really feel bad for people who are going to be screwed by this.

Fuck you, LL.

Khamon · 10-31-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caroline ra

Im sat here as an alt and Robin hasnt shown yet

She'll probably pop in and say "I only have a few minutes so type quickly."

Trout Recreant · 10-31-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

It makes no sense whatsoever, no one buys a sim and never sets foot in it, even a park is *visited*. Water sims are used for sailing, in scripted boats driven by avatars, no?

The whole excuse is rubbish.

OK - that's what I thought. I'm not by any means an expert on Sim resources and how much drain different uses are, though, so I just wanted a quick check from others to make sure that what I thought made sense was actually right

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khamon

She'll probably pop in and say "I only have a few minutes so type quickly."

If I had a nickel for every woman who has said that to me...

Khamon · 10-31-2008, 04:14 PM

If anybody went to the meeeeeting, post a transcript so we can have something to laugh at today. I was gonna go, but actually have nothing to say to them, and know that nothing they can say to me would make any difference at this point.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:24 PM

I dont have Rosies pleasant disposition so youll have to pick the bones out of this lot for yourselves.

Chapter 1

Quote:

[12:20] Jorge Serapis: Yay, Robin!!!
[12:20] Bob Bunderfeld: Wasn't that the day I was there giving them a bunch of crud about New Residents
[12:20] xstorm Radek: hi Robin
[12:20] Bob Bunderfeld: Oh looking

[12:20] Bob Bunderfeld: Lookie
[12:20] Robin Linden: Hi all . I'm so sorry to be so late
[12:20] Nika Talaj: Hi, Robin, very cute!
[12:20] xstorm Radek: wish to have my place ?
[12:20] Spencer Dharnen: whew! I am so glad you are here!
[12:20] Nika Talaj: happy Halloween!
[12:20] Robin Linden: I was stuck in a meeting that wouldn't quit
[12:20] xstorm Radek: i will get up
[12:20] Bob Bunderfeld: But yuou have a very important accouncement?
[12:20] Bob Bunderfeld: announcement
[12:20] Chaley May: what happened in the meeting?
[12:20] Spencer Dharnen: Robin, I need to ask you one very important yes or no question
[12:21] Justice Razor: let's let spencer go first, he has to leave and his question is imp0ortant
[12:21] Chaley May: hope they talked and decided to cancel the rise in OS sims
[12:21] Spencer Dharnen: Robin, in light of the banning of $Z casinos and Bicky Bean casinos, is the charity casino model we discussed (instead of winning money, one can exchange tokens for moderately priced, donated, non-transferrable in-world merchandise that can't be auctioned) still viable and (to the best of your knowledge) allowable by Linden Labs?
[12:21] Bob Bunderfeld: BTW - This is LEGAL in Hong Kong
[12:21] Robin Linden: spencer, nothing has changed since the last time we spoke.
[12:22] Robin Linden: Is there something that came up that I don't know about?
[12:22] Bob Bunderfeld: lol
[12:22] Bob Bunderfeld: Just prices
[12:22] Spencer Dharnen: Yes....$Z Casinos, once approved by linden labs, were recently banned
[12:22] Spencer Dharnen: Aargle Zymurgy's venture
[12:22] Robin Linden: well Bob that probably doesn't affect Spencer's question.
[12:22] Bob Bunderfeld: Not yet

[12:23] Bob Bunderfeld: I was just saying, this is the same real world model used in Hong Kong
[12:23] Robin Linden: spencer I'll have to ask the lawyers.
[12:23] Spencer Dharnen: So I just wanted to make sure that what you and In Kenzo and I duscussed was still possible
[12:23] Robin Linden: I can't speak with any authority about this.
[12:23] Spencer Dharnen: How do I get back to you about it?
[12:23] Spencer Dharnen: Or will you get back to me?
[12:24] Robin Linden: robin@lindenlab.com
[12:24] xstorm Radek: if you look it still says there is no gambling
[12:24] Spencer Dharnen: well, this isnt gambling, per se
[12:24] Bob Bunderfeld: It's not gambling
[12:24] Spencer Dharnen: it's more like what you do at a Dave and Busters
[12:24] Jorge Serapis: (My kitten just shredded my lap to ribbons chasing the butterflies on your land, Robin..!)
[12:24] Spencer Dharnen: you play gambling games, but you cant win money
[12:24] xstorm Radek: if a person is using lindens then it is gambling
[12:24] Spencer Dharnen: you can win chips/tokens/tickets with which you can redeem for prizes
[12:25] Spencer Dharnen: the lindens paid into the system are charitable donations
[12:25] Bob Bunderfeld: Storm, I hate to mince words with you, but you are wrong

[12:25] Spencer Dharnen: so, i dont want to take up a ton of your time
[12:25] xstorm Radek: then make it free
[12:25] Robin Linden: spencer - can you please IM me your email address and I'll see what I can find out
[12:25] Spencer Dharnen: thank you for letting me ask
[12:25] xstorm Radek: no lindens at all
[12:25] Spencer Dharnen: I will.....certanly, Robin....thank you.
[12:25] Bob Bunderfeld: The FBI and Justice Dept,.would say differently
[12:25] Spencer Dharnen: Ill also give you the notecard with the basic outline of the model on it.
[12:26] Spencer Dharnen: thank you, everyone
[12:26] Robin Linden: great - that's a huge help
[12:26] Spencer Dharnen: i appreciate your consideration!
[12:26] Bob Bunderfeld: No problem Spencer

[12:26] Spencer Dharnen: :-)
[12:26] Chaley May: Spencer... Sell something and with purchase you join into a free game/raffle or whatever it is to win prizes
[12:27] xstorm Radek: well when people get free lindens from the gaming group to go and use there toys then it may not be seen as gambling
[12:27] Justice Razor: about the opensim pricing... if you grandfathered in all the current OS holders then nobody would loose their sims because their business models can't work under the new structure and it would slow the growth of land, increasing population density and boosting the sl economy... would you consider this solution to the problem?
[12:27] Bob Bunderfeld: Or take PayPal payments and circumvent using Lindens all together

[12:27] xstorm Radek: thats how i see it
[12:28] Robin Linden: so I had two questions for you today. First is wrt open space pricing.
[12:28] Bob Bunderfeld whispers: I'm so glad I'm not the one doing the questioning today

[12:28] Robin Linden: I know everyone is unhappy about it. What I'd like to hear from you is how you would solve the resource allocation problem.
[12:28] Chaley May: yes make 2 prices
[12:28] xstorm Radek: but i put a lot of money into trying to help others and do not wish to see all the scammers take there money away from them
[12:28] Chaley May: one for fair low usage sims which stays at its current price
[12:28] Chaley May: and let the commercial sims that abused it pay
[12:28] Bob Bunderfeld: Hold on, first prove to me there is a RESOURCE ALLOCATION Issue
[12:29] Robin Linden: Second is about the blog. Lots of people are unhappy with the current information that's there.
[12:29] Bob Bunderfeld: That is a statement that really needs some justification Robin
[12:29] Justice Razor: yes, I don't think it existe either
[12:29] Ciaran Laval: You work with the estate owners and help them gauge resource allocation Robin. You also stop selling the product until that is resolved
[12:29] Robin Linden: Hopefully you've seen what's holding us up.
[12:29] Bob Bunderfeld: If using OS's are such Resource Hogs, can you tell me why no less then 15 OS were used in the construction of Nautilus?
[12:29] Bradley Palmer: restrict agents and scripts and keep the fees the same and for those who want to rack it high apply the higher charges maybe
[12:29] Robin Linden: What would you like to see on the front page of the blog, recognizing that Torley and other more specific information will come back in other, topical blogs?
[12:29] xstorm Radek: there is to many people crying on the blogs about open sims

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:26 PM

Chapter 2

Quote:

[12:29] Aurora Jacks: lower the scripts allowed, lower the amount of avs allowed and not make the hike so high or grandfather, and why cant the owenr name exchange names? why do they ahve to stay in the payors name? also what does that mean for group owned sims?
[12:30] Bob Bunderfeld: And on some of those, more construction and scripts were found then on most OS's owned by private individuals?
[12:30] Ciaran Laval: The front of the blog should just be a feed of headlines to the other blogs. Hiding Torley away is not helpful nor is the status reports being the place to find out about viewer updates
[12:30] Robin Linden: Bob, wrt Nautilus, I think Jack explained there was an error there.
[12:30] Nika Talaj: Personally, I would like to see the most recent postings on SL's primary blogs.
[12:31] Jorge Serapis: I wasn't aware that there was a script limit similar to prim limits on OS sims, ro for that matter, any sim..
[12:31] Justice Razor: can you at least explain the plroblem more clearly? gtive us a definition of "light usage" untill you can be more specific these claims are simply not beleivable
[12:31] Bob Bunderfeld: Now explain why the Public Works Dept was about to auction off 4 OS's full built out?
[12:31] Robin Linden: Interesting idea Ciaran. Nika, I'm not sure what you mean?
[12:32] Bob Bunderfeld: You can sit here and say there is a Resource Allocation issue, but your own people are abusing the OS's and yet nothing is said about that
[12:32] Nika Talaj: Sorry, I mean something very similiar to Ciaran. Make the blog front page show
[12:32] Phase Cydrome: why not make everyone who logs in host their own land on their own computer? and charge the person only to host their land when they are off line ( as their computer would be off taking the land with it ) .. they can then do what they want with their own land within a SLA , taking the resourse issus off the servers, making the people happier as not to be charged as much, and most people happy. (its a suggestion not an argument

) )
[12:32] Brunnar Sopwith: someone in the forums already presented an idea of tiered OS products to deal with the differing type of useage. Heavier use higher cost. Lower Use, lower cost. For example, open water sims the sailing community uses are low sim, low use and the script and prim counts spike when people sail through with boats. Otherwise those sims aren't carrying much of a load at all.
[12:32] Robin Linden: Yes, Jorge, I think we can do a much better job of explaining how these things work.
[12:32] Nika Talaj: The most recent postings for the status, torley, and main blog.
[12:32] xstorm Radek: sounds more like the mill is dumping untrue crap again
[12:32] Robin Linden: Ahh. got it. thanks nika.
[12:32] Ciaran Laval: If the other sections are specific then the main blog becomes a sort of misc section as is and that's not helpful for navigation
[12:33] Bob Bunderfeld: Sorry Storm, once again, we come fully loaded with bullets and eveyrthing
[12:33] Robin Linden: Brunner - that sounds pretty complicated. Do you think there might be a simpler way to manage this?
[12:33] Aurora Jacks: lower the scripts allowed, lower the amount of avs allowed and not make the hike so high or grandfather, and why cant the owenr name exchange names? why do they ahve to stay in the payors name? also what does that mean for group owned sims?
[12:33] Justice Razor: how is charging more money going to help fix lag on the OSes? you aren't planning to put them on less cpus from what I understand... most of them are already class 5 from what I hear
[12:33] Bob Bunderfeld: The easiest way to manage this is to first APOLOGIZE to OS owners
[12:33] Robin Linden: So Ciaran, the front page of the blog would carry major announcements and updates, and also serve as a navigational point for other blogs?
[12:34] Aurora Jacks: and will all OS sims go back to the payors name including group owned sims?
[12:34] Bob Bunderfeld: Your people either missed this, which I doubt, or they just overlooked it for a long while and built up a customer base on OS's
[12:34] Bob Bunderfeld: Now you want to drastically change things

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:27 PM

Chapter 3

Quote:

[12:34] Bob Bunderfeld: It's time LL step up to the liability plate and claim some of the responsibility for their own actions
[12:34] Bob Bunderfeld: instead of punishing the customer
[12:34] Ciaran Laval: Yes Robin, the reason people see the main blog and don't go any further, I didn't even know Torley's vids had moved to showcase,
[12:35] Ciaran Laval: that made no sense I'll try again
[12:35] Robin Linden: aurora - I don't know what the name change restriction is for.
[12:35] xstorm Radek: we run a group own mainland sim and we dump the island sim we had do to all the problems we had and in the long run mainland is still better
[12:35] Aurora Jacks: stop accusing and let her answer the QUESTIONS please some of us have viable questions
[12:35] Bob Bunderfeld: What you should do, to gain back the trust of your Customer Base, is to Grandfather everyone, and be more strngent on your OS sales from this point forward
[12:35] Nika Talaj: Robin, that's good, if "major updates" includes the most recent grid status as well as the top blog post from the current blog, and a list of Torley'
[12:35] Ciaran Laval: People automatically look at the main blog and go no further because they don't realise sub blogs exist
[12:35] Nika Talaj: s most recent vids.
[12:35] Justice Razor: ok, I'll say what many are thinking but aren't saying here... stop inventing problems that don't exist just so you can charge more money... also, you have not explained how this extra money is going to fix anything
[12:36] Ciaran Laval: Good idea Nika
[12:36] Bob Bunderfeld: I haven't even started accusing...you will know when I do
[12:36] Chaley May: No to grandfathering... that suggests you will be punishing future people for past OS buyers abuses.
[12:36] Aurora Jacks: i dotn think that but i do think there is a compromise and a better "way"
[12:36] Bob Bunderfeld: I'm stating plain fact....and Robin asked what we think, so I'm telling her
[12:36] Justice Razor: it seems to me that you are punishing us for creating thriving sims in places where you saw only opoen water being developed... you are taxing our creativity and discouraging it
[12:36] Robin Linden: Let me say one thing. I'm in a much better position to answer your questions about the blog than I am about open space regions.
[12:36] Ciaran Laval: Chaley yes but there's a problem with the product, to just carry on regardless exasperates the problem.
[12:36] Bob Bunderfeld: Of course you are
[12:37] Phase Cydrome: no point me being here then.. wasting my time.
[12:37] Bob Bunderfeld: One more customer just left
[12:37] Aurora Jacks: so you are saying you dont what entails with this?
[12:37] Chaley May: they need 2 prices and to make distinction between commercial use and personal non profit use
[12:37] Bob Bunderfeld: How many more before LL deals with their own mistakes?
[12:37] Chaley May: commercial use is bringing all the traffic
[12:37] Aurora Jacks: then who can we speak to robin? when will we be able to be heard?
[12:37] Ciaran Laval: Openspaces should be grandfathered, no two ways about it, Linden Lab have to take responsibility for this mess and not just blame their customers whom they gleefully encouraged to buy the product. Then deal with the resource issues by working with residents, not working against them.
[12:37] Bradley Palmer: agree chaley
[12:37] Chaley May: and they are the ones generating money so should be paying the extra
[12:38] Ciaran Laval: Jack said he should be doing more meetings and hey Robin that would be perfect use of the blog to announce that although I think he might want to consider doing them as they did the traffic meetings and asking people to book slots
[12:38] Bradley Palmer: that would be a perfect solution, personal residential with restricted avatar numbers and commercial where they can do their worst
[12:38] Bob Bunderfeld: I don't believe it's right to punish ANY of the OS customers, when it's been shown that LL employee's did the same thing
[12:39] Aurora Jacks: then who can we speak to robin? when will we be able to be heard?
[12:39] Bob Bunderfeld: Unless of course you plan on openly punishing your employee's for going against your own policies
[12:39] Ciaran Laval: Jack Linden Aurora
[12:39] Bradley Palmer: jacks office was like a zoo unfortunately and very little got asked or answered
[12:39] Nika Talaj: (Aurora: were you able to go to Jack's office hour, Thursdays 11:00?)
[12:39] Ciaran Laval: He said he would likely be doing more meetings
[12:39] Bob Bunderfeld: Can we trust Jack at this point?
[12:39] Bob Bunderfeld: His staff is the one that used OS to build Nautilus
[12:39] Ciaran Laval: We have to trust Jack, even if he does support Coventry City
[12:39] Aurora Jacks: i was not and when and where can we speak to him again from what i hear it was vague
[12:39] xstorm Radek: no one will bother asking a nonprof. org to put any real money into open space sims any way when you need 1 full sim plus you must buy 4 open space sims

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:29 PM

Chapter 4

Quote:

[
[12:39] Bob Bunderfeld: It's alright for Employee's to abuse the system, but no one else?
[12:40] Sindy Tsure: only the non-residential sims are OS, Bob.. I suspect you already know that, though
[12:40] Sindy Tsure: at nautilus
[12:40] Robin Linden: You should speak to Jack, Aurora. I can certainly pass your questions on thought
[12:40] Bob Bunderfeld: They still have buildings on them
[12:40] Nika Talaj: (Bob, I don't know why that one administrative messup is so very significant here)
[12:40] Bob Bunderfeld: Resourse Allocation, isn't that what we were discussing?
[12:40] Aurora Jacks: ty that would be very much apreciated
[12:40] Chaley May: a house or 2 doesnt use much respurces with a couple of people living there... also they can be used linked together to make nice routes for people that enjoy sailing
[12:40] Bob Bunderfeld: Because, that one messup isn't being treated exactly like they want to treat their customers
[12:41] Aurora Jacks: stop slamming LL it must not be that bad if you are still here
[12:41] Robin Linden: sorry - trying to catch up with this.
[12:41] xstorm Radek: one small error is not the end of a world
[12:41] Justice Razor: we might not always be here, aurora
[12:41] Sindy Tsure: buildings matter far less than things like script and traffic, bob
[12:41] Aurora Jacks: the insults dont help
[12:41] Ciaran Laval: To be fair to Bob he has been a long time, has anyone else here been here as long as Bob?
[12:41] Bob Bunderfeld: I've been here for 5 years plus and will continue to be. But when LL starts messing with their very lifeblood, the customers, how long will SL be here?
[12:41] Spencer Dharnen: Sorry, to cut in again momentarily.....Robin, I just sent the Notecard
[12:41] Bob Bunderfeld: What insults?
[12:41] Brunnar Sopwith: You may be right that what I was talking about is complicated Robin. I do not have specific knowledge of the back-end technical specifics. I can tell you this, any of the resolutions to any of your issues are going to take work and alot of things are never as simple as people would like them to be. As for a simpler solution, well maybe the simplest solution is to admit you stuck your foot in your collective mouths and shot from the hip on this decision before you consulted the very same group of people without whom, you would not have a company at all. User created content IS how Sl has come to be what it is.
[12:42] xstorm Radek: life blood ? what are you a vampire ?
[12:42] Spencer Dharnen: Did you receive it?
[12:42] Robin Linden: Yes Spencer.
[12:42] Bob Bunderfeld: Don't go there Storm. I was very nice when I didn't need to be. So just back off if you are going to be that way
[12:42] Justice Razor: robin: what do you think about the grandfathering option? that seems to me to make everybody happy... what is the flaw in it?
[12:42] Spencer Dharnen: Thank you....I'll also send an email with the same information. Bye for now!
[12:43] Robin Linden: Ciao Spencer!
[12:43] Sindy Tsure: cya, spencer
[12:43] Nika Talaj: Justice, grandfathering all current OSR's in at the same tier level as now, you mean?
[12:43] Ciaran Laval: Grandfathering is the only way Linden Lab can restore trust and confidence.
[12:44] xstorm Radek: i only like facts not people pointing at others for small errors in some thing that is still new and growing
[12:44] Robin Linden: Everyone else -- I agree that this is complex. the pricing that Brunnar is suggesting makes it more difficult for people to understand. that's why I was suggesting it would be good to make it simplr.
[12:44] Sindy Tsure: grandfathering sounds like license to continue to abuse the OS product, ciaran..
[12:44] Ciaran Laval: They should then suspend the product for 2 months and relaunch it at the new levels if a technical solution can't be found in the 2 month hiatiys
[12:44] Chaley May: but even then they cant just grandfather alone
[12:44] Ciaran Laval: hiatius
[12:44] Chaley May: they will still need to recognize true openspace usage
[12:44] Bob Bunderfeld: No Grandather those here now, then lower PRIM limits on all others sold, so this can't happen again
[12:45] Robin Linden: Grandfathering is problematic because it creates something like a class system. The other problem is it doesn't distinguish between resource uses.
[12:45] Bob Bunderfeld: I mean, yes to grandfather
[12:45] Chaley May: they cant have someone buy a sea for $125 a month while you all live it up in nice islands for $75
[12:45] Bob Bunderfeld: But Robin, who created that Class?
[12:45] Ciaran Laval: Robin please, grandfathering is a precednet
[12:45] Brunnar Sopwith: I don't think grandfathering completely solves the issue. There are deeper issues at hand. How are server metrics handled on the back-side? Can they be presented to to community so that we can see what's being seen behind the scenes?
[12:45] Bob Bunderfeld: Doesn't Linden Lab has some responsibility in this at all?
[12:45] Ciaran Laval: precedent, geesh my typing has gone to pot and I haven't hit the pub yet
[12:45] Jorge Serapis: GRandfathering already exists re: private sims.. and I haven't seen any negative hubris about it.
[12:45] Robin Linden: hehe Ciaran
[12:45] Bob Bunderfeld: How about LIFETIME Accts?
[12:46] Bob Bunderfeld: I know some were sold AFTER their time-limit
[12:46] Bob Bunderfeld: Isn't that the same thing?
[12:46] Robin Linden: Grandfatherine for the private regions is tied to server class, Jorge.
[12:46] Justice Razor: grandfathering is a precident that was set 2 years ago the last time tier prices increased... what makes the content creators 2 years ago worthy fo grandfathering but the OS owners today not worthy of grandfathering?
[12:46] xstorm Radek: just keep it out of mainland we have more then we need of problems now on mainland sims
[12:46] Nika Talaj: jack has said there are two problems: a technical resource issue, and revenue - they miscalculated and didn't get enough tier for the OSRs. Grandfathering would not help the 2nd problem at all.
[12:46] Bob Bunderfeld: I respectuflly submit that Jack that that because he was told to
[12:47] Bob Bunderfeld: jask said that
[12:47] Jorge Serapis: So grandfathering exists.. and as I said, i've not heard any issue about it.
[12:47] Robin Linden: Jack also said that we're reviewing all the feedback and that we need to account for different levels of use.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:30 PM

Chapter 5

Quote:

12:47] Ciaran Laval: Nika they should nt be selling anymore until the technical issues are worked out. As it stands they are planning to approach owners and discuss the resource issues, this can be done without a price increase
[12:47] xstorm Radek: mainland costs to much now for the little help we ever get
[12:47] Robin Linden: Jorge - I think that's a different situation.
[12:47] Nika Talaj: Of course, Ciaran, but resource utilization is not the only issue.
[12:47] Sindy Tsure: robin, any idea how long a review would take? we talking days, weeks, months?
[12:47] Brunnar Sopwith scratches his head
[12:48] Robin Linden: Sindy, I think this needs to be brought to some resolution quickly.
[12:48] Bob Bunderfeld: With every passing moment Linden Lab loses customers
[12:48] Nika Talaj: (and i agree, stopping to sell them until new policy is in place would be wise)
[12:48] Sindy Tsure agrees, even if only to stop the forums spam..
[12:48] Bradley Palmer: yes i think thats the crux of this, the different levels of use, where some people use their OS to live themselves and build and others who split them into plots to resell or let out as malls with campmasters and sploders and 1 gazillion scripts running full pelt
[12:48] Nika Talaj: (lol, Sindy, yes it is painful)
[12:48] Bob Bunderfeld: I would still like to hear what Responsibility Linden Lab thinks they should take in this?
[12:48] Ciaran Laval: What other issues are there Nika? If they can help people to actually utilise them as a quarter off a full sim I don't see what else needs to be done unless the only solution is to host less per server
[12:49] xstorm Radek: no linden labs is getting the dead wood off the servers that hold them back from growing like they need to grow
[12:49] Nika Talaj: Ciaran, I'm referring to LL's revenue issue with OSRs.
[12:49] Bradley Palmer: thats the big difference and thats why im personally so angry because fair use of 800 prims and 30 scripts for myself now means i have to subsidise people who have abused the system
[12:49] Bob Bunderfeld: Storm, that is too close to the truth I feel
[12:49] Ciaran Laval: but it's only a revenue issue if they need to host less per server
[12:50] Sindy Tsure: isn't that what jack said, ciaran?
[12:50] Robin Linden: Bob, I think it's our responsbility to listen to what everyone is saying.
[12:50] Bob Bunderfeld: So, to be clear
[12:50] Nika Talaj: Ciaran, you may be right, I don't know their revenue model at all. But I could see scenarios where that is not the only factor.
[12:50] Bob Bunderfeld: You don't think Linden lab has ANY responsibility for this problem?
[12:50] Robin Linden: I didn't say that Bob.
[12:50] Bob Bunderfeld: Well, then please, let's get specific
[12:50] Ciaran Laval: They sold a lot of them that surely boosted revenue, unless it has led to a drastic downturn elsewhere
[12:51] xstorm Radek: drop all the RPG thats not helping giving any help to others or making a real pull to SL and help the real people that try to help others not just there own damn pockets
[12:51] Sindy Tsure: though i think bob is a raving lunatic, i agree that this could have gone better.. a "folks, you're abusing OS sims.. knock it off or we'll have to raise prices" blog would have been better
[12:51] Sindy Tsure: *a better start
[12:51] Robin Linden: Bradley, how about load balancing. Some have said that we should provide better statistical info and let Residents work out the resource problem themselves. What do you think about that?
[12:51] Brunnar Sopwith: wow
[12:51] Bob Bunderfeld: YOu all but called your customers "bad boys and girls" in the price increase blog, yet turned a blind head to your own culpability
[12:51] Ciaran Laval: Agreed Sindy ....nobody copy and paste this chat log!!!!
[12:51] Bob Bunderfeld: When will we see an apology?
[12:52] Nika Talaj: Ah, yes, I should have said profit! Reading between the lines of Jack's statements, OSRs are nowhere near as profitable as regular sims. And the regular sim market has been cannibalized by them.
[12:52] Sindy Tsure thinks it's a mistake to limit it to that, nika.. people ARE abusing them
[12:52] Bob Bunderfeld: And the decision to sell those OS's to the customers was whoese/
[12:52] Justice Razor: that's a great idea, I think, robin! let the sim owners solve the problem
[12:52] Ciaran Laval: heh I made that point in July, six weeks before I caved in and purchased an openspace
[12:52] Bob Bunderfeld: ?
[12:52] Chaley May: yes we need to know the details about the resources that the OS sims are taking which is why the costs are needed.. i dobt believe bandwidth alone is a good enough reason
[12:52] Nika Talaj: True, Sindy. The resource issues are real as well.
[12:53] Bob Bunderfeld: If Resource Allocation WAS the problem, you would think Linden Lab would have all these graphs in their Blog showing it
[12:53] Bob Bunderfeld: Why haven't we seen these numbers
[12:53] Nika Talaj: Robin, more information would help, better tools to monitor script load etc. would help.
[12:53] xstorm Radek: at this point there is to many scammers selling to people open space sims when they do not even know what they are buying in to as of yet
[12:53] Robin Linden: Agreed Nika. It always helps to have more information!
[12:54] Sindy Tsure: but you've already said you no longer trust jack, bob.. now you're asking for more data from him?
[12:54] Bradley Palmer: i think some residents will just ignore that and go right ahead and cram everthing they can get into the sim to get as much out of it as they can unfortunately
[12:54] Nika Talaj: Then you could give people much more specific recommendations, as well, Robin.
[12:54] Sindy Tsure: "you're a liar! tell me more!"
[12:54] Robin Linden: Yes xstorm - that's been a big problem. It's easy to cheat people who don't know the difference.
[12:54] Bob Bunderfeld: No, I said, if you listened, that the inforation should have been put in the BLOG when it was said
[12:54] Robin Linden: An option we're looking at is making sure that it's easy to see what type of land you're on so that doesn't happen.
[12:54] Bob Bunderfeld: Now I won't believe it because you can make up whatever numbers you want
[12:55] Bradley Palmer: id appreciate it but then i also wouldnt take the micky and try to set up a mall in a low prim sim
[12:55] Robin Linden: Bob, I suspect it would be pretty hard for us to do anything right in your view.
[12:55] xstorm Radek: Bob a error is still a error
[12:55] Bob Bunderfeld: You are right
[12:55] Bob Bunderfeld: wrong I mean
[12:55] Nika Talaj: Bradley: too true. The people who would monitor their sims are NOT the people abusing them!
[12:55] Ciaran Laval: I like Sindy's idea, I think it was Sindy, tell people to behave or else and give clear guidance
[12:55] Bob Bunderfeld: I would appreciate it if SOMEONE at Linden lab stepped up to the Microphone and too responsiblity for their own mistakes leading to this issue
[12:55] Chaley May: I know that 50k concurrent users will always be somewhere in the grid using up bandwidth and the costs of bandwidth dont increase because of their location
[12:56] Bradley Palmer: ah yes that would help a great deal...then unscrupulous types couldnt bamboozle the uninitiated and sell them something that wasnt suitable
[12:56] Bob Bunderfeld: Then come up wth a Compromise to what you have proposed
[12:56] Bob Bunderfeld: But then again, that would mean Linden Lab did the right thing, and that hasn't happened for almost 3 years now
[12:56] Sindy Tsure: [#VWR-8768] Buy Land dialog should make it obvious if the land is on an openspace region - Second Life Issues and [#VWR-8770] About Land should show openspace vs full and the server class of the host - Second Life Issues are two to vote for RE making it easy to see the sim type
[12:56] Bob Bunderfeld: Now that was the INSULT you were all looking for
[12:56] Ciaran Laval: I thought that was coming Sindy?
[12:56] Nika Talaj: I am puzzled, frankly, as to why hard limits on OSR resouce utilization have not yet been implemented. Is that so hard to do, Robin?
[12:57] xstorm Radek: you can never turn back time to stop a error just learn from the errors you make and move on and try never to make them again
[12:57] Sindy Tsure: neither are assigned, ciaran.. that doesn't mean they're not being worked internally, tho
[12:57] Bob Bunderfeld: You are right, but NOT taking responsiblity for your part of those mistakes isn't the best way to handle business either
[12:57] Ciaran Laval: I thought jack mentioned it in his blog
[12:58] Sindy Tsure: could be.. i've read so much in the last few days, it's starting to leak.. i think.. maybe.. can't remember
[12:58] Nika Talaj: I would think that, for example, monitoring LSL/Mono script load within a single processor would be easy, and you could just clamp those threads when limits are exceeded.
[12:58] Robin Linden: I don't know Nika - I know that we can manage prim use technically. I think it's much hard to manage script load.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:31 PM

Chapter 6 finally

Quote:

[12:58] Brunnar Sopwith: actually Nika, I suspect that such things are difficult to implement because of software design issues on the back-end. again. I'm guessing.
[12:58] Bob Bunderfeld: One question, where was Linden lab those many months that OS's were going on without anyone saying they were using up too many Resources?
[12:58] Bob Bunderfeld: Why wasn't Linden Lab watching these OS's then/
[12:58] Ciaran Laval: That's a good question Bob

[12:58] Bob Bunderfeld: Isn't that your job?
[12:58] Nika Talaj makes note to go to Zeros office hour
[12:59] Sindy Tsure: it's not always easy, nika.. charging based on usage introduces some easy grief vectors.. they really don't want that
[12:59] Bradley Palmer: restricting the avatar numbers might help wit hrestricting scripts though
[12:59] Bob Bunderfeld: So, you bypass doing your enforcement, and now it's everyone else's fault?
[12:59] Nika Talaj: True, Sindy.
[12:59] Robin Linden: True Bradley.
[12:59] Bradley Palmer: and im pretty sure thats possible
[12:59] Bob Bunderfeld: Do you understand where I'm coming from here Robin?
[12:59] Sindy Tsure: and things like traffic also have a big effect, especially with high-load avatars.. performance is always tricky
[12:59] Bob Bunderfeld: Where were your employee's during all this?
[12:59] Bob Bunderfeld: How did it get to be a problem?
[12:59] xstorm Radek: but people are still finding ways to use more prims then they are permited by using 0 prim rezzing systems that can make 200 and more prims tell the server its only 1 prim
[12:59] Robin Linden: I think so, Bob.
[12:59] Bob Bunderfeld: Was no one watching?
[13:00] Bob Bunderfeld: So, where's Linden Lab's responsibility in all this?
[13:00] Nika Talaj: Bradley: good thought. Limiting max avatars is simple, and would discourage clubs, malls etc. immediately.
[13:00] Bob Bunderfeld: You watched the problem come to existance and only acted after complaints
[13:00] Ciaran Laval: I have to agree with Bob, a 67% price increase is shocking but Linden Lab just blaming residents, for a customer service view, is worse
[13:00] Robin Linden: Yes Nika. Should be a simple thing to do.
[13:00] Ciaran Laval: from a customer service view
[13:00] Bob Bunderfeld: Seems to me that you have Linden Lab has the bulk of Resonsiblity in this mess
[13:00] Sindy Tsure: temp rez prims, xstorm.. those are a subset of limiting raw prim usage.. i'd bet they already do that on openspace sims
[13:01] Bradley Palmer: yes nika which would in turn reduce scripts and make these sims unattractive to the heavy duty commercial use some people are using them for
[13:01] Robin Linden: OK. So what I need to take back to the team working on this is:
[13:01] Nika Talaj nods
[13:01] Robin Linden: 1. Someone needs to take responsibility and apologize.
[13:01] Chaley May: if you are recognizing openspaces as places to build businesses and such then you should remove the need to own a full island to get one
[13:01] Bob Bunderfeld: BTW - one last question. Robin, has there been ANY change in Policy concerning JIRA and Votes?
[13:01] Sindy Tsure giggles at withers avatar
[13:01] Robin Linden: 2. we should look at other technical means of limiting use
[13:01] Brunnar Sopwith: Nika: there's a number of ways to control load. I just don't know how the Linden's handle those kinds of things. I know how I would do it and how i'd build the technology to do it. In this case, it's a black box for anyone outside of Linden Labs with regards to how those limits and controls can be exercised.
[13:01] Surfaqua Oh: hello
[13:01] Surfaqua's translator: hello
[13:02] xstorm Radek: they will be used in open space sims too just you watch and see what happens to the servers and the hubs
[13:02] Robin Linden: What else?
[13:02] Aurora Jacks: group owned land will it all go back to the payors name come jan 1?
[13:02] Ciaran Laval: Stop selling the product until it's fixed
[13:02] Bob Bunderfeld: Has there been a JIRA Policy change?
[13:02] Chaley May: number 3: Chaley May: if you are recognizing openspaces as places to build businesses and such then you should remove the need to own a full island to get one
[13:02] Robin Linden: Good question Aurora. I'll have to ask. Bob - I don't know anything about the JIRA policy. What are you referring to?
[13:02] Chaley May: make these openspaces available to all
[13:03] Bob Bunderfeld: That the one with most votes get the most attention
[13:03] Sindy Tsure: that's never been the case, bob
[13:03] Robin Linden: Well Chaley, the point is to enhance an existing full region, which is why the link.
[13:03] Robin Linden: It's a 'soft' way to encourage the use that was originally intended.
[13:03] Chaley May: but the new price increases means you recognize it is no longer being used to enhance
[13:03] Aurora Jacks: we dont want the grid full of stamps and then nowhere to expand full estates
[13:03] Ciaran Laval: That was the point Robin, until the change in product

[13:03] Robin Linden: There's a group that meets once a week and reviews all the open JIRAs Bob.
[13:03] Bradley Palmer: im a bit confused with all the chat robin, frankly i salute your patience
[13:03] Bob Bunderfeld: I suggest you lookup JIRA #1776
[13:04] Robin Linden: That hasn't changed.
[13:04] Bob Bunderfeld: It has over 3500 votes
[13:04] Bob Bunderfeld: Most the JIRA ever has seen
[13:04] Robin Linden:

Thanks Bradley.
[13:04] Bradley Palmer: i need 2 paracetamol and a large gin and tonic now
[13:04] Robin Linden: I'm sure they're looking at it Bob.
[13:04] Bob Bunderfeld: Let's see you do what your customers want by that
[13:04] xstorm Radek: i think mainland group owners will need to abbandon all there land in the end if things start to go that way
[13:04] Sindy Tsure: i meant that it's never been that a jira which says just "fix it allz!!1!" and has 27,000 votes will get attention from LL
[13:04] Bob Bunderfeld: I think someone from Management better be looking at that one

[13:05] Robin Linden: I'll check it out.
[13:05] Sindy Tsure agrees - i'd like to know the alt count on that one..
[13:05] Robin Linden: Anything else?
[13:05] Sindy Tsure: yes, robin
[13:05] Bradley Palmer: good luck
[13:05] Sindy Tsure: when are you going to do a new bear?
[13:05] Bob Bunderfeld: Yes, just when can we expect to hear ANYTHING about this?
[13:05] Aurora Jacks: where will we be looking for the amswers to this?
[13:05] Aurora Jacks: will they be on a blog or what?
[13:05] Ciaran Laval: Cheers Robin I need to hit the pub
[13:05] Aurora Jacks: answers too
[13:05] xstorm Radek: think of the IBM group and what will happen
[13:06] Robin Linden: Jack said in his last post that he would post again soon, after the team has had a chance to review all the feedback
[13:06] Nika Talaj: Robin: I think also that some sort of lower-tier sim for education and non-profits should be maintained.
[13:06] xstorm Radek: i hate to see IBM pull out od SL
[13:06] Nika Talaj: Jack's statements about that have caused some distress.
[13:06] Sindy Tsure would agree as long as they're not abusing them, nika
[13:06] Sindy Tsure: that part sounded harsh..
[13:06] Aurora Jacks: so you will speak to him and the "team" we should look for these answers on the blog from Jack?
[13:06] Robin Linden: Agreed it's really important to make it possible for educators to participate.
[13:07] Chaley May: wait you need to take back to him recognize the difference in commercial uses and make prices to match the extra usage they incur
[13:07] Robin Linden: Well aurora, I'll speak to him and he's planning to post.
[13:07] Bob Bunderfeld faints dead away...she actually agreed with something that was said

[13:07] Object [script:genjutsu]: Script run-time error
[13:07] Object [script:genjutsu]: Bounds Check Error
[13:07] Robin Linden: kk chaley
[13:07] Chaley May: its commercial use thats using resources
[13:07] Aurora Jacks: thank you
[13:07] Chaley May: thanx

)
[13:07] Aurora Jacks: have a good evening/day all and ty for your time Robin
[13:07] Bradley Palmer: thank you
[13:07] Robin Linden: ciao Aurora
[13:08] Nika Talaj: Thank you much, Robin.

caroline ra · 10-31-2008, 04:33 PM

I was pleasantly surprised. The idea of restricting to non commercial and restricting avatar numbers seemed to get thro.

Can only do as my old nana used to say...
'Hope for the best but prepare for the worst'

Cindy Claveau · 10-31-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caroline ra

I was pleasantly surprised. The idea of restricting to non commercial and restricting avatar numbers seemed to get thro.

I have to ask though - wouldn't that be the obvious solution, the first one out of their heads when they realized there was an issue?

Instead, they plan to jack up the tier and alienate even more of their customer base?

Cocoanut Koala · 10-31-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cincia Singh

Put simply, if your reason for being in SL isn't social, educational or because you're a business thinking about River Run Red, your days in SL are likely numbered.

Actually, I think that is the main principle behind everything that we can't figure out.

We think they actually want us to live long and prosper, but I think they absolutely do not want that.

They want themselves and their buddies to live long and prosper, and I have long thought they are more than a little jealous of what residents have done, and done better, than they ever could, or would even take time to try.

It really pisses them off to see residents making good money, is what I think - and largely because they were arrogant enough to think that could never happen. They thought THEY were the big cheese, the magnanimous giver of this wonderful sandbox, where we, the lowly little people, were allowed to "play".

I think everything they do which hurts us - which is nearly everything! - is part of this principle which has actually been directing them and has been their goal for a couple of years now: To eventually be rid of bothersome paying residents, and have instead lofty educational institutions, prestigious panels and so forth, as well as "real" businesses instead of silly "pretend" ones.

Everyone else would be yokel "tourists" they can look down on with ease.

(And as an aside, it occurs to me now that LL may hate people who make money on land the most, as, after all, they consider the land "theirs" in the first place. Which of course it is, but that's beside my point.)

So LL wants to get to the point where the only people who actually have or do anything significant in SL are themselves, their friends they hike up with them (like Moles and Showcase picks), and prestigious universities, plus real-world businesses.

But they have to get the money from somewhere, and thus far, it hasn't come in sufficient amount from the "real" companies, the universities, etc.

Hence - they string us along, and kill us by a thousand cuts, and hope that we persevere anyway, long enough to pay their bills until they get enough traction with businesses, universities, etc.

And even if they don't, there is probably a plan B where they can still survive, albeit on a smaller scale. And maybe even look forward to in relief, in a way. Only greed and egomania - the desire to brag about being "big" - keep them trying to hold on to both.

(The only thing that doesn't fit in my theory is that the educational institutions also have open spaces; then again, I expect an exception to be made for them.)

Sounds pretty crazy, I know - but it is what I've thought since shortly after they made SL free to everyone.

coco

Quiplash · 10-31-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macphisto Angelus

The credit system is coming to OLG soon. Sakai wants to put it off a week so that all the new people coming had a chance to upload textures free and get a good start. He is going to ask our opinion on that Sat. at the weekly meeting. His credit idea for now is to allow someone who owns a sim to be put in a pool for a monthly drawing. If they win, they get to cash out that month. This protects the system by not having a crashed economy before it even hits the far side of beta.

Oh, I didn't know that! My involvement with OLG has been very limited of late. Thanks for the update Macphisto.

I guess I'd better start uploading some textures for my own use, eh?

I have a good feeling about OLG. I do believe that by this time next year, they will be a serious competitor to SL. There's already been an explosion of creativity, and the platform has become a LOT more stable. It's worth a visit to see for yourself. I'm keeping it in the back of my mind as Plan B.

But of course I'm going to follow all you guys wherever we all decide to go *sniffs* group hug!!

Quantum Destiny · 10-31-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caroline ra

I was pleasantly surprised. The idea of restricting to non commercial and restricting avatar numbers seemed to get thro.

Can only do as my old nana used to say...
'Hope for the best but prepare for the worst'

I wonder if Robin is at this moment creating a Bob Bunderfield voodoo doll?

10-31-2008, 02:56 PM	#76 (permalink)
Khamon BUY TREES MOAR1 Iz a timeout Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 4,819 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 2 SL Join Date: November, 2003 Business: Fate Gardens Flowers and Trees	I believe Robin's office hour is beginning in Ambleside in a few minutes if anyone's interested in attending. __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song. - Quenta Silmarillion Please Visit Our Gardens and Our Website

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10-31-2008, 03:02 PM	#78 (permalink)
Trout Recreant Oncorhynchus mykiss Incomprehensible gibberish Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 5,998 My Mood: Blog Entries: 3 Awards: 1	I don't want to fly too far off topic here, but I have had a question nagging me about the use/abuse of OS' with regard to LL saying that they should be lived in. This may just be my ignorance showing, but I don't understand what the problem with living in an OS was. I understand the prim limits and performance issues, and obviously why you wouldn't want to cut them up into small parcels and rent them out, but suppose I had an OS and I had a moderate home and some landscaping there. Maybe I sunk most of the land and had some space to sail a boat around. As long as I'm within the prim limit and I keep the scripted objects under control, why is that any different than having a wooded park to wander around in?

10-31-2008, 03:15 PM	#82 (permalink)
Io Zeno Gone SLU Supporter Stoking the fires of Hell Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 17,021 My Mood: Blog Entries: 1 Awards: 1	And as it has been said, a LOT of people had no problem whatsoever using the sim lightly. If they had some way to measure use or if LL set up a system to limit it, they would be fine living within those limits. But LL never did that. LL increased the prim limits. Then acted like they had no clue what was going on, sure.

10-31-2008, 03:16 PM	#83 (permalink)
Rebel Television Senior Member I want my RTV Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 575 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 1 Business: ChibiTech	If LL sticks to their modus operandi, there will be a few backdoor deals going on here. I doubt they want the sailing continent to have to shutter their windows. They will just never, ever acknowledge any discounts, as they don't want everyone and their dog to file a ticket asking for one.

10-31-2008, 03:18 PM	#86 (permalink)
Io Zeno Gone SLU Supporter Stoking the fires of Hell Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 17,021 My Mood: Blog Entries: 1 Awards: 1	So ok, that is my rant for the day. I really feel bad for people who are going to be screwed by this. Fuck you, LL.

10-31-2008, 04:14 PM	#89 (permalink)
Khamon BUY TREES MOAR1 Iz a timeout Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 4,819 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 2 SL Join Date: November, 2003 Business: Fate Gardens Flowers and Trees	If anybody went to the meeeeeting, post a transcript so we can have something to laugh at today. I was gonna go, but actually have nothing to say to them, and know that nothing they can say to me would make any difference at this point.

10-31-2008, 04:33 PM	#96 (permalink)
caroline ra Hell is other people MYOB Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Zummerzet Posts: 2,270 SL Join Date: Dec 2006	I was pleasantly surprised. The idea of restricting to non commercial and restricting avatar numbers seemed to get thro. Can only do as my old nana used to say... 'Hope for the best but prepare for the worst'

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