Hugsy Penguin

The KB article was updated two days ago and still contains the same "light use" blurb. Where have they stated something different to what's acceptable usage?

--Hugsy

caroline ra

There was not a tweet about OS misuse on the quarterly report on the Blog in July....far from it, they were gleeful about the huge expansion.


Second Life Virtual World Expands 44% in Q2 « Official Second Life Blog

MoxZ Mokeev

Ackshully where I live, there are two openspace sims next to each other. Each one is divided into 4 islands. I live on one 4096 OS island.

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Cindy Claveau

Your problem, Hugsy, is that you find yourself in the uncomfortable position of trying to defend the policies of a company who doesn't even understand their own policies.

And when they do, they change them whenever it's convenient.

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Kit Lacy

Well we used close to or 3750 limit. Twatwaffles? No. We were just never told. If we had known we would have cut back.

Heck, we still don't know if we were a problem sim.

alisia student

Another thing that made this situation even worse. is that after the prim increase and price drop of the OS sims, all full prim estate land became virtualy un-rentable over night.
For most estate owners, at that point it became sink or swim.

the only estate land new renters were interested in, was OS sims, our last full sim sat empty for 2 months, before we finnaly caved and converted it into 4 OS sims. We put in that conversion order on sunday night, i suspected it would be atleast a week before LL actually converted it. i was amazed when, about an hour after we filed the ticket, a linden came and did the conversion. then i wake up monday morning to the lovely news of the price increase.

Humps

Possibly by their actions? When they decided to facilitate standalone OSS's ie not attached to a regular full prim island. Can YOU tell me what on earth would be the point in a stretch of open ocean, not attached to anything, and not to be used for anything other than decoration.

The moment LL decided to facilitate stand alone and remove the obligation to have them attached to an existing island or estate is the moment they gave the nod to accepting that people were using these for something else. They were complicit. That is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on to mention increase prims, transfer to payer as owner and the offer to convert existing islands into four OSS. All of these things show that LL were not only aware but actively encouraging different use.

You can keep trying to spin it all you like, but the fact of the matter remains. LL knew what was going on and did all they could to encourage the process. They were simply interested in sales figures.

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Rosie Barthelmess

You may want to read the blog entry from earlier this week on the SL blog, or attend any of Jack Linden's office hours (or read the transcripts) where they have been consistently changing their tune and reiterating that server load was higher than they expected, but that doesn't mean it was abuse, and that they are adjusting the price point accordingly.

It's pretty much everywhere except that one old KB article that might have a new date on it but essentially is the same. I would figure it'll be updated again this week with newer information.

I've been participating on the forums, talking to Lindens, attending office hours, reading transcripts of meetings and discussions, and following this pretty closely since I'm directly affected. The only way you'll be able to hold your own in a conversation with those of us who are doing that, is to act like you'll be directly affected and pay as much attention to how LL's handling this as the rest of us are.

Otherwise, I don't know you from Adam (no offense, Adam) but I'm not seeing any purpose for you to be defending one side or the other except to play devil's advocate and give yourself something fun to do.

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caroline ra

Kit dont ever think you did wrong, you didnt.
When I got my 1st full prim estate another estate owner told me only to use 13000 of the 15000 prims. I thought this was a bit peculiar, surely LL would have allocated only 13000 if thats all the sim supported. So I collared Jack when he was still on concierge and asked....will the sim performance suffer if I use all the 15000 prims?

He said 'No, if they wern't meant to be used, we wouldnt have set the limit at 15000 prims'

They sold OS with 3750 that THEY increased from 1875 (I think it was)
Why?

So that nobody would use them cause theyre like 'not meant to'?

Well thats just pure fuckery.

Hugsy Penguin

I think that's where there's a great misunderstanding. I'm not defending LL. They came out with a policy and did things contrary to that policy and that's confused people. Typical LL. I'm not blasting LL because I agree with the people blasting them and I don't need to add to that.

I just happen to think that even after everything LL said and did, some OS owners knew (or should have know) that they were pushing it too far. These people are partly to blame for this mess, but no one's acknowledging that.

--Hugsy

Rosie Barthelmess

If by this you mean the people who were using temprezzers to have 6,000 prims instead of 3,750, or the people who were running 5,000 scripts and laggy commercial areas on them instead of understanding they needed to work within the boundaries of 1/4 of a typical sim's capacity, then we're in agreement.

I'm not convinced that the number of people doing that is exceedingly low compared to those people using it for quiet residential use.

And considering there are a number of maxed-out openspaces in LL's new Nautilus build that use more prims and more scripts than any residential OS I've been on to date, it'd also make LL a violator under those definitions.

Cindy Claveau

It sure sounds like you are, though.

Not true at all. Lots of us have acknowledged that - but the catch, as has been repeated ad nauseum, is that they were never really clear about limits nor did they do a single thing to ENFORCE those limits.



That was a message that seemed to contradict everything they initially said. Then they wonder why people started putting large builds on OSS's?

Cincia Singh

The playing field in the estates has been changing for months! I considered estate land once but when I saw the number of them going offline every month and their tenants being left in the lurch I passed. And this OS debacle will just cause more estates and OS's to disappear. Of course the recent OS issue hit the estate owners very hard, the economy tanked and people went back to being SL homeless to save RL money and that hit the estate owners hard, LL started doing their own new land with double prims and zoning (Bay city and Nautilus) and that hurt the estates! And mainland hasn't been spared either because the value of parcels on the mainland is only a fraction of what it was a few months ago.

Put simply, if your reason for being in SL isn't social, educational or because you're a business thinking about River Run Red, your days in SL are likely numbered. Oh and yes, wankers will always inhabit SL it seems both inworld and at LL. lol

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Kit Lacy

And here is the bit that hurts. We just paid tier.

All up we are going to be out 58,000 Lind.

58,000/ And we're moving to a full sim now. The Lindons are laughing all the way to the bank. We were going to move anyway but now we lose some of our rent and we won't be able to onsell.

As I said, this is the last time. If the Labs screw around with the full sim that's it.

Beebo Brink

That level of instability for everyone, regardless of whether you're just a resident or also a land dealer of some kind, is what makes SL so difficult to live in.

I wouldn't mind if the realtors and brokers could play with risky land ventures for their own adrenaline jollies, as long as there was another way, any way, for residents to obtain land in a sensible, safe manner with little or low-risk of loss. Some of us, a lot of us even, simply want a place to call home, to set up a business, to fart around with prims. And once we've set down roots, we'd like to be the ones who decide when or whether we ever leave that spot again.

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Jerboa Haystack

What I meant re: estate rentals right now is that everything is even more up in the air than normal. I understand about doing homework, and choosing a well established landlord to make it more likely that you won't log in one day to find the whole sim gone.

But right now, with almost everyone in the real estate business wailing, gnashing teeth, and rending their garments, it's hard to even use longevity as a guide. It's obvious that business models will be changing over the next few months. My instinct is to either just find mainland, or wait until the weathervane settles at it's new spot before committing to anything.

Then again...with basically 2 months to go, I guess it doesn't matter too much as long as I'm prepared to move again.

Hugsy Penguin

Yes, they are partly to blame. Those who used them in a way they "should not" have but weren't lagging the sim, weren't part of the problem but may have underestimated how much these sims would get abused and didn't prepare properly.

--Hugsy

ArchTx Edo

"Your world! Your imagination!", We have always been encouraged to push the limits and do as much as possible with the basics that LL gave us. Look at mega-prims for example, they are now tolerated on the grid.

/me wonders if that will be the next excuse LL uses for increasing tier costs.

Khamon

No, it'll be the fiber pipes.

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Macphisto Angelus

That was by Wagner James Au, A formerly imbeded reporter for the lab.

I haven't read the rest of this thread to see if someone already mentioned that.



Note, I said former linden before.. but that is not really the case.

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Io Zeno

Let's look at it this way: can you use more prims on a parcel than you "should" or is it a hard limit?

If people were told, hey, you shouldn't use more than x amount of prims, the parcel isn't built for that, don't complain if you experience difficulty....

What do you think would happen? People would cram as many prims on that parcel as it could handle.

Now, what if the response was: /heavy sigh... ok we will increase your prim allowance.

Does that sound like discouragement of that kind of use to you?

No, it does not.

And then what if a few months later, they said, wtf are you doing with all those prims, I'm doubling your tier?

And what about the people who NEVER used all those prims and who, like say Adam, have them integrated into an entire system of sims to create a natural environment around the residences, because it was cheap landscaping? What do they do now?

If they meant this to be a hard limit, people would have been *incapable* of doing anything else. Not only was it not a hard limit, they encouraged this kind of use by increasing the prim allowance.

And once you got heavily invested in this nice deal... BAM your tier nearly doubles. And if you were never using the sim in that way, you are out on your ass.

Humps

This really would not surprise me BUT what I don't understand is how on earth they could be in any kind of financial trouble. I may have a simplistic view of things and am the first to state that I don't have much of a clue about the infrastructure involved.

If I buy an Island (which I have in the past twice over) I pay set-up cost which covers I assume the cost of the server to run it (or a part thereof) I then pay tier over and above what it would cost me to buy the same server space on the web from a normal host. So I am not costing the LL anything in terms of infrastructure because I paid for it in set-up and in maintenance every month. Given that I could buy my own server (and it would be mine forever) and run it far cheaper than LL charge me I have to assume they are making a decent profit on every customer along with having all their servers and stuff bought and paid for.

Given the many thousands of full regions, Islands and open spaces the monthly take from tier alone must be phenomenal. I know that ordinary everyday overheads , electricity, tax, wages etc must be significant or at least in proportion but still, how many 6 year old web based companies are in such an enviable position to be taking that much money every month. Most run at a significant loss for years if the technology pages are to be believed.

Like I said it is possibly a simplistic view but if so what am I missing?

Macphisto Angelus

Exactly.

And one of the things I loved about OpenLife was that it is not rushing to have an economy. That was one of the things I was concerned about with the old Central Grid when it was first to announce it implemented one.

An economy if it is true has to have backing. Just saying "we have an economy" is well and good, but what happens if a bunch of people go to cash out at the same time? What is backing the real money for the game bucks?

The credit system is coming to OLG soon. Sakai wants to put it off a week so that all the new people coming had a chance to upload textures free and get a good start. He is going to ask our opinion on that Sat. at the weekly meeting. His credit idea for now is to allow someone who owns a sim to be put in a pool for a monthly drawing. If they win, they get to cash out that month. This protects the system by not having a crashed economy before it even hits the far side of beta.


Anyway, tangent I know. Point was that no economy today does not mean these grids will not develop one soon. Just question them and make sure your investment is backed by something for the unexpected.

Mocksoup Graves

I hate to Occam's razor this but isn't this just a case of bait and switch?

They got a TON of people who wouldn't have normally bought land to get an openspace. THEN they raise the prices. They are banking on the people who have invested enough time and money and emotional connection into either splitting an estate (if they can) ponying up the money for the cost of the openspace and hedging their bets on people not deserting their 'insert pet project here'.

Seems shady to me... This makes me upset for the people who stand to lose.

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Io Zeno

You know I never assume on LL's part any evil intentions when simple incompetence is usually to blame but this IS classic bait and switch.

They may not have intended it at first, or maybe they did, but once they saw people buying up and using OS sims for residences and commercial use, and encouraged it, knowing that once people got invested they could just raise the price through the roof, it is a *scam*.