Delicious Demar

I was reading the recent threads here and on SL Forums, which basically touched on the different cultures at the two forums. I started a new thread because the original thread was really about the cross-forum drama, and wasn't sure this would fit into it.

I'm the typical SLU lurker. I read these forums all the time - and have for a few months now - there are a lot of fascinating people here, lots of hilarious people that crack me up, lots of dramaz, lots of personality. I spend a lot of time on here. I'm not much of a poster here though - i have posted on a few threads that I felt strongly about, but otherwise I tend to just read, get caught up in the stories, opinions and personalities.

The SL Forums thread made me ask myself why that was - I am certainly not shy about sharing my thoughts and opinions about things, and post much more regularly on other forums - even though I don't read them as much. There have been lots of times when i have had opinions and thoughts about threads, but I have shied away from jumping into the discussion. In the end, I decided it's because I am intimidated - which was shocking to me, because I am usually not easily intimidated.

SLU is definitely cliquey - but a lot of forums are - and SLU is not cliquey in a nasty way. I have read the word "family" a lot here. Unless someone comes on and attacks one of the clan - then things get ugly. I think I made the mistake of chiming in with strong opinions on a couple of threads that I felt strongly about (which was referred to as my "personal agenda") - to which the reaction was bascially, "who the fuck are you?". When you read forums a lot - you get to feel like you know the regulars - and yet they have no sweet clue who you are.

So, yeah, a few times I have wanted to post things, maybe arguing with one of the regulars who says something outrageous, and I just figure I'll get gang-banged if I say anything. Maybe that's unfair - but it's irrational so it doesn't need to be fair to be true...

Not suggesting any of this is wrong or bad - it just occurred to me that there might be a couple other people out there like me...

dd

Ned Easterwood

Well Hi Delicious - glad you decided to de-lurk.

Why don't you try posting in some more innocuous threads at first, let people get to know you a bit. Maybe that will help. And then come to one of the forum nights Brig hosts on Tuesday - she always puts out a notice.
People do get cranky in some of those political/social threads, so try avoiding them for a bit. I have that whole forum on Ignore myself.
We do tend to defend our own here - it is like family to that extent. But people can come in and become accepted easily - see Arilynn for example - or stop lurking and have the same thing happen - see Mereille for example. (Note - I am biased in her case - she is my partner. )
Once you are accepted, we will protect you like a she-bear protecting her cubs.

Don't give up.

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Ned

Arilynn

I think you provided the solution to your problem: Post more, starting in non-debate threads, to allow people to get to know you and thus join the "family".

I think any community is wary of an unknown person who walks in swinging. It is hard to evaluate that person's intentions (are they just here to stir up emotions?) or place their comments in a broader context. It seems to be standard in any forum I have been on to introduce yourself in the noob section, start out in noncontentious threads, and wait to jump in until you have a feel for some of the pre-existing dynamics and others have some idea of your good intentions.

I hope you stick around and post enough so we get to know each other. And welcome to non-lurkdom!

Amelia

I have so many posts now can I still consider myself lurking?

I agree with you, thanks for putting it so eloquently. I like reading (many of) the discussions here because you get point of views you won't normally get elsewhere, like from people who know so much about SL (like Chalice Yao and WarKirby) or Trout Recreant's hilarious and eloquent, yet tangential approach on things, to mention just a few. Normally I stop reading when an argument gets too heated and I always think twice before posting something serious, or even seemingly serious stuff, deciding mostly no on second thought.

Why? I got finger rapped twice for seemingly attacking part of the family. It was unpleasant for me, and I don't need that. Luckily I think I've found my own balance that works for me (what to post, what to read, what/whom to ignore). And I must say, getting finger rapped wasn't so bad when at the end I get to know a sweet, personable person better

Midi Reifsnider

Hello Delicious *waves*. I said hi in your new user thread, not sure if you remember. Anyway, I didn't know anyone here when I started posting (after several months of lurking, like yourself), and while I wasn't the instant success Arilynn has been, I think I've grown on people (ok, don't all pile in and tell me you think I'm a pain in the ass).

As you said yourself, you have to tread carefully until people get to know you. My only other piece of advice: keep your sense of humour at all times. People enjoy reading funny posts and it saves you from taking it all too seriously.

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Io Zeno

What Arilynn said. This is the way it is on *any* established forum. It's like joining a conversation in progress and you just have to get over some awkwardness and shyness and jump in. If you come into an argument between people and they don't know you, unless you are being very cautious you can find yourself in deep shit, just like RL.

I do not think SLU is cliquey unless people simply knowing each other is "cliquey", we can't help it, we aren't going to pretend we aren't familiar with each other so other people won't feel left out or something. And it's much larger than a forum like SC where I literally knew just about everyone. Really, I'm pretty friendly to anyone here unless I mark them as a real troll and that is very, very rare.

Sarah Nerd

People here are opinionated and protective. Although that might seem overwhelming at times, its one of the biggest reasons I love it here. I prefer people share feelings rather than keep it all in just to avoid disagreement.

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www.SarahNerd.com
http://www.your2ndplace.com/sarahnerd

Petra Paderborn

I'm very new and as this is really my first forum ive been active in...(I lurk elsewhere)..Ive yet to encounter hostility. But then again I try to stay out of family squabbles until I'm more accepted Keep posting tho, get your feet wet be horribly oblivious like moi!

Vivianne Draper

Hi there. Welcome to SLU. Beware of elder gods.

I have a llama.


Now that we have that out of the way, I'm not seeing where being a stranger and getting a "who are you?" = clique. Its a valid question in that case. I would say that the onus is on you to post, introduce or in some other way make your presence known.

A clique, generally, is, well to take the dictionary.com definition: "a small, exclusive group of people; coterie; set"

We are far from exclusive as this board welcomes generally anyone at any time. Anybody can make an account here, anyone can post and say hi, anyone can say pretty much whatever they want with very few restrictions.

If some folks were having a discussion on the street and you wanted to chime in, you wouldn't just walk over, but in and offer your unsolicited opinion. If you cared enough you might walk over, say 'excuse me' and introduce yourself, and then say "i couldn't help overhearing your conversation but ...." Especially if that group was a 'forum' where others were more or less invited to do that.

Regardless of the shouting matches around here, I fail to see why manners and polite social norms are ignored and those who have done so labelled as cliquish when they turn and stare blankly at the stranger who offers his or her opinion after failing to introduce one's self.

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Aodhan McDunnough

The stronger one's opinions are about a topic the more one must first establish themself before speaking up. There is such a thing as audience preparation.

You have to get the audience first to understand who you are and where you stand.

It's just like friendship. There are things you could tell a friend that you can't tell a stranger.

I think the basic mistake of those that get into trouble is when they throw in their opinions raw. It takes a tremendous amount of communication skill and careful writing and well thought out logic to be able to voice a strong opinion on a forum community that doesn't know who you are. Risky at any rate.

Welcome, formally.

I definitely am in no clique, or at least I don't think anyone here regards me as being in one. I never posted a hello post here. I inserted myself into the community the same way I did in the SL forums, in topics that don't involve any emotion, and usually little opinion, but a LOT of logic: technical subfora. Even in-world my biggest non-commercial contribution is as a technical resource person.

Arilynn

This is such a great point that I have to quote it along with adding "agree". I do feel like I was accepted here fairly quickly ( to all). But part of that IMO is because a large percentage of my posts are bits of fluff meant to be amusing. Never underestimate the power of fluffy amusement (please see the internet domination by Lolcats as Exhibit 1).

Vivianne Draper

Well being smart and stuff doesn't hurt

Ned Easterwood

"Stuff" including being polite. Very important and sometimes neglected.

Beebo Brink

We're very much a small town, where some people have known each other inworld since the early days of SL, or from a strongly defined forum community such as SC that migrated over to SLU. That history can't help but color the forum dynamics, but as Io said, there is no way to erase it.

Joining any long-standing forum is like being the new high-school kid introduced to a class of teenagers who have all known each other since they were in diapers. It takes a certain degree of finesse, courage and just plain tenacity to carve a niche for youself.

Learning how do it on a forum is great practice for RL, though. Every time you move or get a new job or join a new club, you'll face this situation all over again.

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Midi Reifsnider

You my dear are smart AND funny, a rare combination

Io Zeno

And if people think I'm a big bad meanie, let me tell you a few things.

First, the people I fight the most viciously with are people I already know and am even friends with, lol. I think I've beaten up on two trolls that were here to cause trouble.

Second, I am known for falling on my sword to protect people who are being ganged up on or unpopular, well I did on SC. Sometimes I really wound up regretting it, heh. Now, this forum is just too big and you are on your own. If you start a call out thread on someone who is a regular here and are shocked at the hostile response then maybe you need to stay away from forums, period, because that is just common sense.

And frankly, you don't have to be here long for people to give you the same kind of protection, it isn't because someone is super special, they are just members of this little community and we will not let people come here to beat on you without any justification, no matter who you are.

Amelia

There was a reply in Sarah's erotic dream thread mentioning that as a lurker you feel the forum posters are your friends because you "know" them so much. But they don't know you. I think it's all too easy to make this mistake, hence, the jumping into a fray and seemingly being impolite.

Io Zeno

And what Arilynn said, again. HUMOR. This is the SC influence on SLU. Really, if you don't have a sense of humor, get one, because half of what we post even in the middle of a flamewar is a joke. And we will make up after calling each other cunts. And if you are very sensitive, please stay out of the politics forums here or just about anywhere else, lol.

Vinnie Li

I lurk a lot on different forums and usually never post, as much as I always want to deliver my two cents. I'm new here, only started posting here like last week, but I haven't really gotten into any big topics cause well, I'm a SLUN (SLU Noob) lol. Once I get a feel for the place I'll post more, but I'm getting a handle on what people are like, and I don't think it's as much a "cliquey" place by any means.

But just wanted to give SLU your props since I rarely ever join and post on forums

Btw Delicious - another sl person from TO huh? You're #3 I've saw on sl from here

Vivianne Draper

I agree that some of my most viscious fights here have been with Io and Luc and Io are two of my closest friends. Sometimes we fight and agree to disagree. It happens.

Which doesn't mean that Io isn't a big bad meanie

Beebo Brink

It's funny, but I feel that way even about people on here that I don't even like. It's as if we're a big, loud family where everyone is bitching about some other relatives, until a stranger comes to the door to serve a summons. Then it's all for one and one for all.

Once the danger has passed, we revert to our normal inta-family squabbling.

Arilynn

One other point: Unending emo = Death. And I fully support this equation.

Carthalis

Its interesting to read how some have put SLU to be cliquey I found that more over in the SL forums than here.

First coming to Second Citizen forums last year I was a little apprenhensive of entering..I heard all these great things from Humps about the people there it was kind of daunting stepping into it all. But once you take that plunge you find the water is lovely. People joke, laugh, scream, cry, hug and so much more. The community here certainly feels like one big family.

And welcome Delicious from de-lurking keep on posting

Carthalis

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Delicious Demar

see what i mean? you bastards jumped right down my throat!!!



thanks to you all for your kind words - maybe you're not all so terribly intimidating after all...

Aodhan McDunnough

Smart in forums means way more than intelligence. You don't even need to be a supragenius for me to call you smart.

General purpose stuff for anyone who hasn't seen them yet:

Very simple rules of engagement in arguments:

1. Never state your opinions as if they were facts. Be clear that they are opinions by using keywords (IMO, I think, I believe, Might it be that, it is said that, according to ...)

2. Get your facts straight the best you can.

3. Never EVER regard facts posted by someone else as an opinion. If they are facts, respect that they are facts. Facts are an immutable and non-negotiable part of the discussion.

4. If you say "A are B" it will be generally regarded as meaning "ALL A are B" even if you didn't mean it that way. Always be careful with words that describe quantity. Know what all, some, a few, one, at least, at most, most, do to a statement. Extra care should be taken if the statement is a negative. People are more lax if the statement is a positive.

5. If you have to call someone names, it means either your argument doesn't hold or you're plain disrespectful. Calling names like "stupid" etc has no place in any intelligent discussion.

6. Don't stoop. If the other guy calls you names, don't react. The flame can't escalate if you hold your tongue.

7. Respect your opposition even if you disagree.

8. Never let your emotions get the better of you. Not even when you're having a big laugh because you might wind up hurting someone in the chaos.

9. Thanks to Nina on the SL Forums for jogging my memory: NEVER assume something if nothing is said. Silence does not mean agreement nor disagreement nor disinterest. All it means is nothing was said.