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Kit Lacy

What gets me about this is the theft of user held assets as well. Not only did the land bot grab her land but also her house. I'd be gutted if someone did that to a sim I'd worked so hard in putting together.

Surely there has to be an easier of of transferring land to a group that doesn't involve having to sell it you yourself.

Aodhan McDunnough

Not that simple an analogy.

First of all an open land transfer at any price from anyone to anyone is not illegal.

Now in the real world the burden of proof lies upon the accuser. That is the accuser has to prove that a crime was committed.

Given all the data that is at Linden Lab's and the accuser's disposal, no proof will exist. That's because the land sale was left OPEN! All Linden Lab can see is the victim left the transaction open and thus LL has no evidence to work with and the victim has no evidence to show.

Now if the victim had declared the sale to go to a specific person yet a bot was somehow able to steal the land THEN there is a case.

But for as long as a seller neglects to specify the accepted buyer of the land, sorry, but there is no way LL can be asked to step in.

Harsh as this may sound, it's unfortunately all true. People have to learn to be more careful with their land transactions.

The land sale dialog has the means to prevent a land bot from snatching your land, all one needs to do is use it.

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Colette Meiji

would be nice if their warning about anyone included a clause like:

"Including automated programs"

A lot of people who get burned do assume any land buyer is operating under the same physical land buying restraints they are.

Aodhan McDunnough

True that.

But the land steals were happening even before land bots appeared. Land swoopers were that vicious. All that changed is that it's now automated.

I've read stories of something like 7 or so avatars appearing almost simultaneously on a plot set at L$1, purchased mere seconds after the sell button was pressed. And in under a minute the land was under a new owner and priced at some other much higher value. Mind you, this was pre-landbot. The swoopers were using the regular client but just moving much faster.

Khamon

Linden Lab moved with lightening speed when someone used the auction system, as designed, to pay less than the starting price for sims.

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Aodhan McDunnough

Yep they would. It involved an exploit and thus was in clear violation of the TOS, and they had evidence of the occurrence, and evidence that it was an exploit.

Beyond the fact that both involved land this is totally unrelated to the case of landbot steals.

Catching someone who didn't set a working feature is not an exploit. It's an exploit if the landbot can steal the land despite setting the sell-to properly. The fact is that an open sale carries no evidence that a theft took place.

I'm sure a lot of you really hate my guts already for pointing out all of these things over and over again every time we have a thread like this. That's because I want you guys to recognize the crux of the problem which is the victims' refusal to be careful. Linden Lab did due diligence in design of the land sale interface. There is so little we can ask for. As someone pointed out the last time we had this thread "we can't keep trying to come up with solutions to cover people's lapses."

This isn't about bots. Land swoops were happening wholesale even before bots came on the scene.

The Jira proposal I made is really pushing it. But even that can be made to fail by impatience by someone unwilling to read the buyer's name.

Now if anyone believes that one can make a procedure to make a case that Linden Lab can respond to, given the lack of sell-to settings, I want to hear it, because I can't think of any.

It saddens me every time Sarah posts another of these heart-wrenching stories. But at the same time, it frustrates me there's nothing that can be done when the sell-to is not set.

Khamon

Yeah, that's as good a justification as any. Linden Lab can't be expected to compensate for people's general stupidity.

D'ya think land borkers would support the second option?

Sarah Nerd

I think a sell to me only box would be awesome, or something specifically labeled for people just trying to group or ungroup.

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Malachi

Contract law is interesting to me because it attempts to codify millenia of interpersonal disputes into fair solutions.

A common component of British/American (and probably French) common law is the idea of buyer's or seller's "remorse" which allows sales contracts to be backed out of for a short period after the contract is made. One typically has to demonstrate that they really didn't understand what they were getting themselves into and therefore there was a failure of "the meeting of the minds".

An old principle of computer interfaces is that you can put 50 confirmation screens in front of someone and they still screw up. The main reason for this is they make the mistake on screen number 1 and then just have to put up with the tedium of reaffirming that mistake 49 times. This is why most modern programs have undo commands; people do make mistakes. Ought not the computer help, not hinder the user from suffering a costly error?

Aodhan McDunnough

I definitely like the idea of making the "sell to anyone" option more deliberate.

So the only people left to victimize are the uber-lazy.

Colette Meiji

Well yes there were always swoopers. But the Land Bots are far more efficient than them.

And can buy land from a distance and a speed no human could manage.

Colette Meiji

A simple 5 minute delay between the time you put the land up for sale and the time it hits the Land Search Tab would eliminate a lot of the sell to anyone's losses.

Since they can easily make the buy they thought they were safe making in that amount of time.