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Old 07-24-2008, 03:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Replicating Prims in Second Life - ethical?

Just wondering how people approach this.

If somebody takes your original design (registered and copyrighted) and uses the replicator tools on it changing the mods/stripping EULA/changing the Creator name etc.... - would you term it an infringement of your copyright (def is of the EULA).

I am interested as DMCA filings drive me into an early grave, so I went a public route in showing the copy and posted to my Flickr for a week...

In a world where there is little assistance in full inventory removal (or when there is it goes horribly wrong) - I am interested in how other creators approach this.

Copy of this if you want to see the images: /Looks Familiar? on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Thanks, Charlotte
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I dont seem to be able to view it in large size..

Could you post the pic at large size directly to the forum?
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Luc, I've got a pretty good sized monitor and a comparison of the photos shows they are virtually indistinguishable builds.

Whether or not prim replicator was used is irrelevant; I could have copied the design by hand after all. But the design is obviously copied. There's no "flavor of" or "derivative of" ambiguity.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Sure

Low Res:

High Res to download is http://www.scarletcreative.com/NewFiles/Emeryhr.jpg
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
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OMFG.

I would put all your evidance together, snapshots, even the date creation, you can also see it in the pie menu under more. take snapshots of that.

as for the textures, if you used any that are available in world, then your SOL for that. If they are your own, then have the backups for LL.

I would file a DMCA under digital architecture. Make your DMCA detailed as you can and as intelligent as you can.

I filed one a few years ago under digital architecture and it was 3 pages long. Simply stating" someone copied me" is not good enough for them, you have to undeniably prove your case.

get their attention with snipits from the DMCA it self that pertain to your issue and show the examples.

Remember, you are the lawyer and plaintiff, so approach this as so.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Well wait.

Is the second house being sold, or was it just a copy?

I don't see anything wrong with copying something for personal use. I think you would have a hard time establishing that as infringement against a copyright too.

I ask because the second house appears furnished and like it's being used.

If it's someone selling something then hands down, yes, that's not right and it's pretty clearly theft, regardless of the method of duplication.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I do have to say though, and no offense, but the build on the right looks better to me.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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i just thought of something, they may have bought this from you and changed some things and re did the root prim...

yeah what josh said, are they selling it?
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi all


No they never purchased it and it's prim matched, so either (a) Copybot lift and relink - all creator matches or (b) Replicator script to lift parameters and scripted recreation. To obtain the original they either lifted from our sims, or somebody else's copy who provided build rights (if that is possible).

I do not know if they are selling as they have a very closed profile and if so then certainly a DMCA filing and then damages writ would be completed. In this case it will not be, as I wanted to test reaction / public views.

And coming to the point of for own use. Our design is registered legally and holds protected rights. Recreation is not permitted without purchase of a EULA which provides limited rights for use (which meet the fair use test cases).

After all, if I was a fabulous dress maker and could make an EXACT copy of a Dior gown complete with fabrics - but only for my own enjoyment of going out for dinner....and made the same copies for a few friends and passed them around 0 would that be infringement?

The build on the right is exactly the same except slightly textured differently (they are blurred etc) and also has furniture in which sets the house and it's on a nice island (ours is on a build platform). You can probably blame the photographer to some degree on that side (me).
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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you need to find out first if they are selling it.

once you sell a prefab to someone and its mod, they are able to do what they want with it. if that means changing textures and changing the root prim then that is their prerogative.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte Bartlett View Post
Hi all


No they never purchased it and it's prim matched, so either (a) Copybot lift and relink - all creator matches or (b) Replicator script to lift parameters and scripted recreation. To obtain the original they either lifted from our sims, or somebody else's copy who provided build rights (if that is possible).

I do not know if they are selling as they have a very closed profile and if so then certainly a DMCA filing and then damages writ would be completed. In this case it will not be, as I wanted to test reaction / public views.

And coming to the point of for own use. Our design is registered legally and holds protected rights. Recreation is not permitted without purchase of a EULA which provides limited rights for use (which meet the fair use test cases).

After all, if I was a fabulous dress maker and could make an EXACT copy of a Dior gown complete with fabrics - but only for my own enjoyment of going out for dinner....and made the same copies for a few friends and passed them around 0 would that be infringement?

The build on the right is exactly the same except slightly textured differently (they are blurred etc) and also has furniture in which sets the house and it's on a nice island (ours is on a build platform). You can probably blame the photographer to some degree on that side (me).
The EULA has nothing to do with this.

If they aren't selling it, or giving it away, then you have no claim, however close it looks.

You don't need a "replicator script" or anything to duplicate it, if the thing was modifiable then you can just copy the prims by hand.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte Bartlett View Post

After all, if I was a fabulous dress maker and could make an EXACT copy of a Dior gown complete with fabrics - but only for my own enjoyment of going out for dinner....and made the same copies for a few friends and passed them around 0 would that be infringement?
see, this is tricky. take the dress for example, if you are making one for yourself and then give no trans copies to your friends to be diva's for a night, then i think that is ok. Once you put a price tag on it, you could get into serious dog doo doo

As for recreating someones build for your own enjoyment and use, its a serious slap in the original creators face and to all creators and the copier looks like a fool within the SL community.

I had a build re created and it is used for recreation even though i do not sell this build and they didn't either, i still filed a DMCA.

Since you sell this prefab, you really need to find out if they are selling it.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Second question, did you even bother contacting the person first before you started this "test" in public?
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:41 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I just logged in to look at it. It's not being sold, it's obviously just his house.

I sent him a link to this thread.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:42 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Since everybody's thinking it and somebody has to do it:

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Old 07-24-2008, 04:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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As Tya noticed, if you inspect the prims they all have different creation dates. If this was copied by Copybot or a script they would be identical and within minutes of each other.

It's clearly similar, but I don't believe that this is an outright duplication, and the second design is better in my opinion and derivative.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Just to clarify (a) we never sold it to him all logs have been checked. (b) this isn't linked prim change - it's full replication under their own creator name (prim by prim).

Def on the selling, if I found he was this would not be even here as a discussion point, DMCA would have been filed. I do ponder the ethical question. The only thing here that also sticks out why replicate it exactly....

it's funny this one got copybotted last year- PERHAPS he simply brought that one full modify, then dropped a replicator script into each prim (time consuming) retextured it using near exact matches of ours, rebuilt it exactly like ours and then didn't sell it..... My mind boggles
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
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It's not textured a near match of yours, or rebuilt exactly like yours. It's very, very similar, but if it was copied it was done by hand because the timestamp of each prim varies wildly.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte Bartlett View Post
Just to clarify (a) we never sold it to him all logs have been checked. (b) this isn't linked prim change - it's full replication under their own creator name (prim by prim).

Def on the selling, if I found he was this would not be even here as a discussion point, DMCA would have been filed. I do ponder the ethical question. The only thing here that also sticks out why replicate it exactly....

it's funny this one got copybotted last year- PERHAPS he simply brought that one full modify, then dropped a replicator script into each prim (time consuming) retextured it using near exact matches of ours, rebuilt it exactly like ours and then didn't sell it..... My mind boggles
Ok, wait. This house as already been copybotted?

Well, then I really wouldn't be shocked to find it somewhere and who knows where the owner got it.

He could have bought it from someone else or had someone give it to him full perms without knowing it was copied.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Josh IM me in world I can rez the other one next to his And public test, of course I have yes.

Just for avoidance of all doubt - my one is non-modify, our prefab is copy only.

EULA I disagree on strongly. Registered Design Rights are stronger that a registered copyright. It takes 3 months to get through (and hence why it is not modify) Second Life users are not exempt from virtual recreation of a building that holds rights.

However, my test is - is it ethical? (not legal). Clearly you are coming down on the side of yes it is as there is no proof of being sold.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The texturing does look a lot better... :/
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
It's not textured a near match of yours, or rebuilt exactly like yours. It's very, very similar, but if it was copied it was done by hand because the timestamp of each prim varies wildly.
Yeah, that is odd, a replicator will have all the prims stamped the same time.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Lots of reasons to replicate something exactly (or close to it), the main one being that the original isn't that difficult to achieve if you know how to play with prims, know how to texture and have the time to do it.

I used to build copies of houses to live in (I didn't sell them or even share with friends) based on designs that were pretty expensive for the simplicity of the design, when all I needed was time and Photoshop.

May be the same case here, instead of being a copybot / replicator / thief issue.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte Bartlett View Post
Josh IM me in world I can rez the other one next to his And public test, of course I have yes.

Just for avoidance of all doubt - my one is non-modify, our prefab is copy only.

EULA I disagree on strongly. Registered Design Rights are stronger that a registered copyright. It takes 3 months to get through (and hence why it is not modify) Second Life users are not exempt from virtual recreation of a building that holds rights.

However, my test is - is it ethical? (not legal). Clearly you are coming down on the side of yes it is as there is no proof of being sold.

You're selling prefabs as no-mod? Wtf... people never want to change the wallpaper?


Also, personal use is fully protected. He isn't selling it, he's living in it, looks like.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Really, it is impossible to protect what is visible in plain sight.

This was already copybotted so as I said, it's probably not the only one out there, just the one you found.

That is why people generally save their ire for those reselling and profiting from a copy, prims are just too easy to replicate one way or another, sometimes from sight alone, and in the end, that really isn't what will cut into your sales, it's the reselling.
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