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Old 09-10-2018, 10:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Your avatar complexity is blah blah blah

I'm standing in a shop checking out the Lucky Boards. Every few minutes, I get that little notice: You avatar complexity is... I know I can turn this off, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Did I mention I'm just standing in a store? And my avatar complexity is constantly changing. I'm currently in the 30-37k range and the bubble says my avatar may not be rendering for others.

First, how is it possible that my AC is constantly changing when I'm just standing there? I'm not changing anything about my avatar.

Second, why would my avatar not render at 35k, but I've gotten the message that everyone can see me at 50k+? Also, isn't whether someone else can see me dependent on their graphics specs?

And finally, should I care? Is AC accurate? If it is, what's a good number to aim for?
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It covers a whole sim. If someone enters the sim with a lower "jelly bean" rating on their slider, then they won't see your avatar and it's just explaining that. Or if someone changes hteir slider... then you'll get the notification.

Even if you take HUDs on or off, it changes. (The area of textures changes with HUDs)

Do what you want. If somewhere decides you can't enter because your ARC is too high, then adjust if you want to visit. but otherwise, be you. 30-37k is perfectly reasonable. I'm usually in the 100-150k range... But go low as 50k or can be as high as 250k.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:07 AM   #3 (permalink)
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There is two types of notices, one when your complexity changes, and another type when the percentage of people who see you correctly changes.

The latter needs no explaination...

The first however, can change due to scripts automating your attachments in some way that requires the server push out visual updates to everyone in eyeshot.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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We have some long threads where the smarter people explain why AC (ARC, RW, ACI) isn't perfect, and even unfair in some situations. Nevertheless, it's accurate enough for it's intended purpose, which is to give some guidance people using the jellydoll feature.


IMHO, if you under 50K you're doing great. A mesh body and head will likely cost at least 20K (my Maitreya and LAQ are about 25), add some hair and shoes....


And, given people can turn you off (jellydoll you) at the point you slow them down, there's no longer such a stigma to being the one wearing the 758K dinosaur suit.


So, you should care if you're going shopping, dancing, or anywhere there's a crowd. It still helps the servers to be low AC. At home, have it your way.
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I question how accurate the AC numbers are in general. Last night a friend walked into a place I work & he was a jellydoll to me so I checked my Quick Preference settings & had to move the slider up to the max (over 300K) to make him not a jellydoll. Then I clicked the thing under Avatar in the upper left corner so it shows all people's AC numbers & he showed around 96K. I rechecked on the Quick Preference slider & moved it around & anything under 300K turned him back into a jellydoll. There's a HUGE difference between 96K & over 300K so why the discrepency in numbers? Others around us said they were showing the same numbers so it wasn't just me.
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Old 09-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The highest, most leinient auto-derender setting, 350K complexity, would only derender those who use the resources of 5 average users combined.

That said, the rating itself leans on the leinient side, for example, the biggest source of abuse, excessive texture use, has almost no effect on complexity.

But on the whole there are only false negatives, not false positives. If you have high complexity, you ARE laggy.

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Old 09-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiter Firelyte View Post
I'm standing in a shop checking out the Lucky Boards. Every few minutes, I get that little notice: You avatar complexity is... I know I can turn this off, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Did I mention I'm just standing in a store? And my avatar complexity is constantly changing. I'm currently in the 30-37k range and the bubble says my avatar may not be rendering for others.
Other users pick what complexity level avatars start appearing to them. For example, if I'm at an event, I usually turn the complexity I'm able to render down to about 40,000. So anyone with an ARC higher than 40,000 will be a jellybaby to me. A jellybaby is a colored avatar shape, which is how an avatar renders for you when you change what you can see.

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First, how is it possible that my AC is constantly changing when I'm just standing there? I'm not changing anything about my avatar.
It's not changing. People are probably entering or leaving the reion and they have their settings fixed at different complexity levels to show for them. So if they arrive, and your complexity is higher than their settings, you'll appear as a jellybaby to them, and the system tells you that so you know that not every can see you rendered. If that avatar leaves the sim, and everyone else can now see you, you'll get the notice again. You get it every time you add or remove something or every time someone can or cannot render you.

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Second, why would my avatar not render at 35k, but I've gotten the message that everyone can see me at 50k+? Also, isn't whether someone else can see me dependent on their graphics specs?
Because people set what they can render differently. Sometime everyone on a sim can see you no matter how high your complexity, other times, many can't, even if your complexity is low. Depends on what they can see.

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And finally, should I care? Is AC accurate? If it is, what's a good number to aim for?
I think it's relatively accurate, but I'm not sure what it counts and what it doesn't. Higher ARC's can cause lag, so if you're at an event or something, it's good to aim lower. But it's really not difficult to come in under 60,000 or 70,000 and still be really decked out. Usually if someone is very high, it's due to a hair, jewelry or they're wearing prims instead of mesh.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Shiloh I'm not seeing the AC being that accurate. As I made in my post above, last night I saw someone as a jellydoll until I turned up my max complexity level to 300K+ even tho he only showed as being around 96K AC when you looked at his numbers. If it's fairly accurate I don't understand how that discrepency can be right. Moving that slider down he turned into a jellydoll if it went below 300K.
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy Hazelnut View Post
last night I saw someone as a jellydoll until I turned up my max complexity level to 300K+ even tho he only showed as being around 96K AC when you looked at his numbers. If it's fairly accurate I don't understand how that discrepency can be right. Moving that slider down he turned into a jellydoll if it went below 300K.
This was reported to the Firestorm JIRA. Ansariel Hiller explained very clearly that an avatar can be jellydolled either because their ARC is too high OR because the total 'surface area' of their attachments is too large.

Here are some useful debug settings (YES, you can disable those annoying notices!).


RenderAvatarMaxNonImposters

The maximum number of avatars closest to your camera who may be fully rendered. Avatars beyond those will be rendered as 'imposters', which means that the rendering will be a little simpler and they will be updated less frequently. Increasing this value can cost you in performance if you're in a crowd.
RenderAvatarMaxComplexity
Any avatars over this complexity will be drawn as solid color outlines. Changing this value directly may cause problems; use the slider in the advanced graphics preferences floater
RenderAutoMuteSurfaceAreaLimit
The limit for the total surface area of attachments before switching to solid color rendering. The default (1000 square meters) is intended to protect against deliberate abuse and should rarely be encountered.
If RenderAvatarMaxComplexity is set to zero, this limit is also unlimited.
ShowMyComplexityChanges
How long to display notices about complexity and rendering, in seconds. Setting to zero disables the notices.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I have a very good example of both how ARC can be massively inaccurate and how it does matter.



Before that update had been published, I been using Alchemy and sometimes swapped to Firestorm. When the latter updated with one of first versions, I checked my complexity and gotten about 120k if I recall. That ... was not even close. My avatar had a tendency of loading weirdly and slowly and I could not pinpoint the cause (blamed various parcels as never worn overtly complex outfits. That or hair). Probably because I was silly and assumed that first mesh heads would be better as simple, no layer or animation messes and such... because yes, it was the head. How bad was it? Over 500k ALONE which I only seen when Black Dragon rolled out Advanced Complexity info (it also ate a lot of memory and the mesh was ridiculously made). I never worn head or body in places with people buuut still crashed in plenty photos.



As Nika pointed out - it is not essentially complexity by itself that affects rendering just like ARC is not only accounted using amount of vertices and so on. I often have people totally derendered when shopping or at events since I do not need to see them and I would assume others do same hence affecting the whole 'not rendered for everyone' thing. Different viewers also have different accounting methods and they report numbers differently to server (at least this is how I interpret it) so various folks will not have same results. Still, it's a good guiding number and I'd go with up to 100ish K for general use, up to 300 K for when you know others can handle you and then up to 500 K if you really need to wear a dress made out of houses for photo. Anything over might break the universe (like I did). Rarely been able to go under 100K with human male avatars (example on me: LAQ head is 25K, Belleza Jake is 33K, add 50K for outfit and extra 10K for when hair needs to be long).
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Old 09-11-2018, 02:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Rarely been able to go under 100K with human male avatars (example on me: LAQ head is 25K, Belleza Jake is 33K, add 50K for outfit and extra 10K for when hair needs to be long).
LOGO bento head (the non-bento heads have high-impact eyelashes, of all things) + Slink Male body + Dura or No-Match hair and an outfit, and I'm typically around 37K. Signature Geralt is also quite low impact, IIRC -- possibly lower than Slink.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Still, it's a good guiding number and I'd go with up to 100ish K for general use, up to 300 K for when you know others can handle you and then up to 500 K if you really need to wear a dress made out of houses for photo. Anything over might break the universe (like I did). Rarely been able to go under 100K with human male avatars (example on me: LAQ head is 25K, Belleza Jake is 33K, add 50K for outfit and extra 10K for when hair needs to be long).

Mh, my own guideline is me staying between ~30k and 60k on average. When I'm at 80k I feel bloated, and at 100k I go "Something is horribly wrong right now.".


Mind you, I optimize a lot - invisible unneeded prims get de-linked, pieces with 1024x1024 logos get replaced with tiny white textures, faces using Blended Alpha get set to Masked Alpha if it still looks fine afterward - it can work for most hairs at a setting of around ~120-150. Especially the latter method of changing alpha types can drop the render weight of an item HARD - sometimes by half - as soon as there are no blended alpha parts left over. Note that changing a face from a non-alpha texture but '100% alpha' setting to using a complete alpha texture with Masked Alpha mode also falls under this.

Needless to say that no-mod = no-buy for me, with the exception of mesh bodies (I prefer Slink Hourglass when it comes to the nomod ones), though I am lately using a mod-enabled body as well.




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Old 09-11-2018, 08:59 AM   #13 (permalink)
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My current outfit says 18500. It's the first I've looked. I guess I'm not a complex person.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I may have run into someone who was trolling people by playing with their viewer settings to trigger the avatar complexity notice. I'm not sure, but there was only one other person in the sim.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It's a real shame that firestorm does not allow limiting per avatar texture usage like with complexity, and to find out how abusive someone is requires inspecting each piece of an avatar to find the sum. Firestorm is in a position to get the creator community to behave and optimize their products, a real shame.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Oh, it's only 300k, nothing compared to the 20 meg animated gifs people post on SLU.
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Old 09-11-2018, 03:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 09-11-2018, 03:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If you log in with a viewer that does not support / understand the complexity system (for example, text only viewers, or just very old ones), the server will treat you as someone who has a 0 complexity maximum set, and you will cause a “some users may not see you” notice to absolutely everyone you see/would have seen.
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Old 09-11-2018, 03:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jupiter Firelyte View Post
And finally, should I care? Is AC accurate?

No, it isn't, it's sheer nonsense and has no relation to any kind of reality - virtual or real - whatsoever.


Detailed technical explanation here:
https://community.secondlife.com/for...-mesh-lod-bug/
A slightly less technical one here:
https://community.secondlife.com/for...ctually-means/


LL is working on a new load accounting system and they may get it right this time. But until that is released, just forget those number and use some common sense. We do not have any way to measure how render heavy an avatar is but the basics is easy:
High polycount = lag
Many and/or high resolution textures = lag
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:06 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupiter Firelyte View Post
And finally, should I care?
Yeah.

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Is AC accurate?
No, because it’s too lenient, so just because it’s in range, does not mean you are OK. But if it’s bad, you can trust that you’re at least that bad.

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what's a good number to aim for?
Try to stay under 70K in public.
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I may have run into someone who was trolling people by playing with their viewer settings to trigger the avatar complexity notice.
What a pointless troll though; I mean the notice is like a mild annoyance on the outside.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What a pointless troll though; I mean the notice is like a mild annoyance on the outside.

You do that to normal people and it's "Hey, who's the jerk lol"


Do it to furries and it's chaos. Mass hysteria. Cats and dogs living together.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raindrop Drinkwater View Post
LOGO bento head (the non-bento heads have high-impact eyelashes, of all things) + Slink Male body + Dura or No-Match hair and an outfit, and I'm typically around 37K. Signature Geralt is also quite low impact, IIRC -- possibly lower than Slink.

I went to check few avatars I currently have dressed for photos to compare as never seen numbers side by side. Soooo here we go:


1st - 160K Dressed for a pirate-related picture I have yet to do (hence the sword).




2nd - 172K me, dressed for that picture and seems I swapped body and head in numbers above as head is less than body.






3rd -245K - Dressed for that picture as I clearly just leave outfits on.






4th - 256K - Dressed for a huge group photo that has not crashed gladly and is here.






5th - 203K - least complicated outfit (visually) as just a suit. Is in same picture as 1st one.





6th - 188K - Again, photo thing and is here.






In summary - I would not be able to play any of them unless I manage to optimise most of the items in question. I think only the 1st and 2nd (my main) have separate eyebrows as a layer. Group photo linked in case of 4th had items I was able to mod (since the bottom textures needed to be same). I am not in SL beyond photos and building a sim recently (the second is taking time) so cannot do a comparison of playable outfits yet. I do have old LOGO heads somewhere and never looked their complexity up but forgot where they reside. I would love the system to have some sort of a gatekeeper as that would enforce standards - true, can stop using the culprits so it pushes the market but not as excellent in meshing ... yet and not doing much beyond graphics in SL nowadays.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:34 PM   #24 (permalink)
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How do you view that info?
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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How do you view that info?

Is is a feature in Black Dragon and I get to it there:


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