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Old 09-13-2018, 04:48 AM   #51 (permalink)
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If I'm a new user with a midgrade computer and I see more jellydolls than rendered avatars, I don't think I'd stay in SL.
Does that actually happen or are you making up a worst case scenario?

My computer is eight years old, and I hardly ever see them.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:08 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I also wonder how many people walk around with their mesh huds attached.
FYI, huds don't contribute to ARC since they're only shown on your own viewer, locally. They can contribute to sim lag if the hud's got inefficient scripts, though, so it's still a good idea to remove them before going someplace busy.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:27 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Huds can lag your OWN viewer if they're texture-heavy enough....which a lot of the more complicated body-huds definitely tend to be.
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:10 PM   #54 (permalink)
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FYI, huds don't contribute to ARC since they're only shown on your own viewer, locally. They can contribute to sim lag if the hud's got inefficient scripts, though, so it's still a good idea to remove them before going someplace busy.
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Huds can lag your OWN viewer if they're texture-heavy enough....which a lot of the more complicated body-huds definitely tend to be.

And given that your HUDs DO contribute to the "total texture area", you can be wearing an efficient av and get jellydolled because you've got acreage of textures in your HUDs.
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Old 09-13-2018, 06:45 PM   #55 (permalink)
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And given that your HUDs DO contribute to the "total texture area", you can be wearing an efficient av and get jellydolled because you've got acreage of textures in your HUDs.
That was the nice thing about the FS built-in AO. No textures to worry about. I've always felt that all viewers, including LL's, should have a built-in AO. Seems to be the most practical and user friendly thing to do, to me.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:19 PM   #56 (permalink)
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And given that your HUDs DO contribute to the "total texture area", you can be wearing an efficient av and get jellydolled because you've got acreage of textures in your HUDs.
I didn't know this. TIL!
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:24 PM   #57 (permalink)
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And given that your HUDs DO contribute to the "total texture area", you can be wearing an efficient av and get jellydolled because you've got acreage of textures in your HUDs.
I'm going to troll with this.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:47 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Does that actually happen or are you making up a worst case scenario?

My computer is eight years old, and I hardly ever see them.
It doesn't happen to me now, but I recently bought a new PC. The reason I was away from SL for so long was because my laptop couldn't handle it. Even setting my performance slider to low/medium, turning off shaders, reducing draw distance, and basically removing all the things that make SL look beautiful, I couldn't go to busy areas, it took a long time for things to load, and my avatar's movements were jerky. So, I gave up because that wasn't fun. And I have to add, my laptop wasn't a piece of shit, but it wasn't enough for SL. When I was shopping for my new PC, my enjoyment of SL was something I took into consideration.

Having said that, I understand there are various things that affect good performance. LL can't be responsible for the hardware of their users, but it can be responsible for the issues that fall squarely in its lap.

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Old 09-14-2018, 01:18 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Does that actually happen or are you making up a worst case scenario?

My computer is eight years old, and I hardly ever see them.
My best PC (which happens to be a laptop!) is 6 years old. Every week or two, I spend an hour or two at a sim with about 60 human avatars, most with mesh bodies and dressed to kill. .

Personally, I can't see the 12 or so avatars who are performing without enlisting the help of jellydolls and/or derendering. If you can, you made one heck of a great purchase 8 years ago.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:47 AM   #60 (permalink)
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My best PC (which happens to be a laptop!) is 6 years old. Every week or two, I spend an hour or two at a sim with about 60 human avatars, most with mesh bodies and dressed to kill.
60 avatars?

If you're a new user with a midrange computer and you visit a sim with 60 avatars, which is like twice as many avatars as I am comfortable with on a sim, you're not going to see jellydolls, you're going to see your frame rate drop to strobe levels and people are going to be suggesting you look off the edge of the sim so you get a high enough frame rate to type. You're also going to have movement problems unless *everyone* is sitting on poseballs.

Eight years ago you'd probably get kicked off when the sim crashed, or your viewer crashed.

The only time I've been in a place like that in the past 8 years has been at a release party, and even then it was probably more like 40 avatars. Estate owners *can* set their max higher, but damn. Setting up a venue where that kind of thing is any fun at all even without avatar complexity issues requires work.

OK, "does that actually happen in normal places?" A new user is REALLY unlikely to get pulled into something like that, it hasn't been the norm since the days of telehubs.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:35 AM   #61 (permalink)
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If you're a new user... Estate owners *can* set their max higher, but damn. Setting up a venue where that kind of thing is any fun at all even without avatar complexity issues requires work.
They DO get new users there, but that requires some coaching from sim oldbies, for sure!

Yes, everyone is on poseballs. This venue is not the only thing on the sim, there's a fair amount of landscaping and several other builds, even some residential space. And yes, the sim owners work on performance constantly. Even so, people with midrange computers must indeed manage complexity and other graphic settings carefully.

Since audience dressing up is part of the fun, they don't say anything about your avatar, except to request no particles and minimize scripts (performances are intensely scripted). Sometimes they manage your camera. No voice, but everyone is listening to the music. They encourage audience chatter during the shows, and use advanced lighting. Given the diversity of textures, it's amazing that anyone can see anything.

It's best to show up early. Performers arrive early, and in a nearby dressing room they wear their outfits and go thru their animations to help audience cache them. Also, you can check out at least part of the audience before you need to jellydoll or derender all of them!
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Sounds like a special case to me. Kudos for the work they go through, but it's not typical.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:31 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Sounds like a special case to me. Kudos for the work they go through, but it's not typical.
Sounds like a dance/burlesque troupe. There's a decent number of them operating across the grid and they almost always perform to full sims.
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Old 09-15-2018, 12:41 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I rarely see jellydolls now. My new normal is this:



On the bright side, it's only for a few minutes.
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Old 09-15-2018, 12:54 AM   #65 (permalink)
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60 avatars?

If you're a new user with a midrange computer and you visit a sim with 60 avatars, which is like twice as many avatars as I am comfortable with on a sim, you're not going to see jellydolls, you're going to see your frame rate drop to strobe levels and people are going to be suggesting you look off the edge of the sim so you get a high enough frame rate to type. You're also going to have movement problems unless *everyone* is sitting on poseballs.

Eight years ago you'd probably get kicked off when the sim crashed, or your viewer crashed.

The only time I've been in a place like that in the past 8 years has been at a release party, and even then it was probably more like 40 avatars. Estate owners *can* set their max higher, but damn. Setting up a venue where that kind of thing is any fun at all even without avatar complexity issues requires work.
Opening night at this year's LoveFest I swear the sim was in the mid-80's for a little while. Maybe even higher. I kept my camera on a tiny spot on the carpet and did pretty well in chat.
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Old 09-15-2018, 02:23 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I rarely see jellydolls now. My new normal is this:
If I had any sort of mesh creation skills whatsoever, I'd put together a typical muti-part mesh body, but rig it in such a way that it looked like a still rezzing avatar with all the parts floating around at odd angles.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:11 AM   #67 (permalink)
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If I had any sort of mesh creation skills whatsoever, I'd put together a typical muti-part mesh body, but rig it in such a way that it looked like a still rezzing avatar with all the parts floating around at odd angles.
Strictly speaking it wouldn't need to be rigged, just created in such a way (from the available model) that it looked like it was still rezzing.

Could be a most suitable avatar for Lag Frenzy.
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:14 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I rarely see jellydolls now. My new normal is this:



On the bright side, it's only for a few minutes.

I know I'm going to catch flak for this post, but here goes..


It's the same for me and it is and it isn't due to mesh complexity. Sure some items are more complex than others, but I recently upgraded to a true beast of a computer. ( i7-8700K 3.70GHZ 12MB Intel Smart Cache; 16GB (8GBx2) DDR4/3000MHz Dual Channel Memory; GeForce(R) GTX 1070 Ti 8GB GDDR5; 240GB WD Green SSD + 4TB SATA III Hard Drive Combo. With Firestorm installed on the SSD.)


Even in a relatively stable environment (10 or so AVs in a skybox club that was fully rezzed) performance would take a nosedive every so often with my camera being static. We're talking screen freeze and all the other signs of lag. Except my fps stayed at a steady 59 (it can go to over 100 easily, but I limited it to 60). And no, people weren't coming and going. That's what made me notice. All the 'reasons' for lag weren't there.



Even on an empty sim, where everything has fully rezzed around me, just switching clothing or hair or whatever takes a painfully long time to rez fully.



My subversive posit is that client side lag really isn't the main reason things are rezzing so slow. when it takes fully 5 minutes or more to call and deliver an asset that I've worn before or rez a setting that I visit practically every day on this beast of a machine, it's not the items, it's the hampster driven cloud asset servers that are to blame.



There hasn't been much difference when it comes to SLs special kind of lag hell between my old computer and the new.
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:39 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I rarely see jellydolls now. My new normal is this:



On the bright side, it's only for a few minutes.
SOMEONE NEEDS TO SWAP THEIR HAIR WEARABLE!
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:28 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Even in a relatively stable environment (10 or so AVs in a skybox club that was fully rezzed) performance would take a nosedive every so often with my camera being static. We're talking screen freeze and all the other signs of lag. Except my fps stayed at a steady 59 (it can go to over 100 easily, but I limited it to 60). And no, people weren't coming and going. That's what made me notice. All the 'reasons' for lag weren't there.

Even on an empty sim, where everything has fully rezzed around me, just switching clothing or hair or whatever takes a painfully long time to rez fully.

My subversive posit is that client side lag really isn't the main reason things are rezzing so slow. when it takes fully 5 minutes or more to call and deliver an asset that I've worn before or rez a setting that I visit practically every day on this beast of a machine, it's not the items, it's the hampster driven cloud asset servers that are to blame.
There two things I want to touch on here, the first is that it is important to distinguish between actual network lag, simulator lag, and computer rendering performance that impacts FPS.

The second is that, as mentioned, textures are not properly counted with complexity. An avatar can easily fill half of your VRAM with textures, even single attachments can be very bloated, yet not have a very high complexity. Pair this with network issues and things are going to take much longer to load than they should.


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My subversive posit is that client side lag really isn't the main reason things are rezzing so slow. when it takes fully 5 minutes or more to call and deliver an asset that I've worn before or rez a setting that I visit practically every day on this beast of a machine, it's not the items, it's the hampster driven cloud asset servers that are to blame.

It is likely that everything in the scene is using both more VRAM than SL allows for, and maybe even more than your cache can currently hold, this is very, very common. It really should not be understated just how quickly things can be cleared out of both if they are not immidiately visible in the scene.

More often than not, it is largely the items at fault, the more bloated the item, the more that has to be downloaded, the more space in memory in takes, and the more space in the cache it takes. If it's not in the scene, other assets quickly take its place and it has to be redownloaded and rezzed. I have measured exactly this kind of thing, and in most places, with typical avatars, the asset swapping literally never ends, even if nothing "new" appears in the scene, simply because of the client trying to keep what it nearest to the camera fully rezzed.
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:31 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I know I'm going to catch flak for this post, but here goes..


It's the same for me and it is and it isn't due to mesh complexity. Sure some items are more complex than others, but I recently upgraded to a true beast of a computer. ( i7-8700K 3.70GHZ 12MB Intel Smart Cache; 16GB (8GBx2) DDR4/3000MHz Dual Channel Memory; GeForce(R) GTX 1070 Ti 8GB GDDR5; 240GB WD Green SSD + 4TB SATA III Hard Drive Combo. With Firestorm installed on the SSD.)


Even in a relatively stable environment (10 or so AVs in a skybox club that was fully rezzed) performance would take a nosedive every so often with my camera being static. We're talking screen freeze and all the other signs of lag. Except my fps stayed at a steady 59 (it can go to over 100 easily, but I limited it to 60). And no, people weren't coming and going. That's what made me notice. All the 'reasons' for lag weren't there.



Even on an empty sim, where everything has fully rezzed around me, just switching clothing or hair or whatever takes a painfully long time to rez fully.



My subversive posit is that client side lag really isn't the main reason things are rezzing so slow. when it takes fully 5 minutes or more to call and deliver an asset that I've worn before or rez a setting that I visit practically every day on this beast of a machine, it's not the items, it's the hampster driven cloud asset servers that are to blame.



There hasn't been much difference when it comes to SLs special kind of lag hell between my old computer and the new.

Could be your connection to the infobahn then.


My system is a beast also, i7-6700HQ @ 2.60GHz, 32GB RAM, 2 1TB SSD, NVidia GTX970M 3G GDDR5. At home I get the exploded avatar look until everything manages to slowly snap into place. If I go to my stepmum's, I get the briefest of glimpse of it. If I use my 4g aircard I barely get a glimpse of the exploded avatar syndrome. If I hotspot it through my phone, I get a little longer glimpse of explodey but not that much longer.


My home service is DSL on 30+ year old copper. Stepmum has coughXfinitycough cable that is a beast. My aircard is a beast but I use it sparingly, same with my phone, as I have to pay the bill now.
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:44 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Also to emphasize just how bad complexity is at penalizing textures, let's take a look at a typical scene at a public place. This is with jellydolls turned off entirely so I can get a better idea of everyone's impact:




Here are some sub 100k complexity avatars from the scene above:









That's four nearby avatars, all under 100k complexity (some even under 50k), already using 1,276MBs of VRAM, that's over half of what SL allows for, and remember that these are suppose to be good complexity values. I don't feel like adding up the above scene right now, but it is a pretty big number. 20GBs+ of textures just from avatars is not uncommon, then you have whatever is rezzed for the build.
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:40 AM   #73 (permalink)
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On the basis of the numbers displayed, Second Life doesn't work at all, which clearly conflicts with the fact that that is a screen shot from Second Life. Either the numbers are wrong, or SL viewers and servers do things to considerably reduce that graphics load.
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:26 AM   #74 (permalink)
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That's four nearby avatars, all under 100k complexity (some even under 50k), already using 1,276MBs of VRAM, that's over half of what SL allows for, and remember that these are suppose to be good complexity values.
What viewer and/or options are you using, that gives you textures and triangles as well as complexity?

(apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the thread)
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:54 AM   #75 (permalink)
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What viewer and/or options are you using, that gives you textures and triangles as well as complexity?

(apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the thread)
I'm still trying to figure out what the "ranks" in FS's complexity display are supposed to mean.
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