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Old 01-18-2018, 08:15 AM   #51 (permalink)
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On topic of average user again - true, hard to compare as too broad of a scope BUT one thing puzzles me. If some users are not bothered by technicals and optimisation ... how on Earth did they manage to survive this long? Just about everything and anything breaks every week in most viewers and on the grid. You have to stay on top of best drivers, maintain clean and secure system, know basics of 3D optimisation and graphic hardware terms (took me ages to find optimal driver settings). To be fair, SL pushed me into a lot of things hardware and software wise than no other game did (second contender is Fallout New Vegas).
Maybe you are just overthinking it all?

I have, over the years, run SL on a crazy number of different pieces of hardware. A lot of second hand, outdated laptops, some modern laptops, my loaded up desktop in my office (and its predecesors), a netbook for a good long while, my phone, an android based TV device, Windows, Linux, over Screen sharing, once on an old Pentium 4 laptop.

I really have not spent hardly any pf that time trying to edit or tweak objects to optimize them. Or screwing with drivers other than the one time there was a known Firestorm issue with AMD cards that caused Mesh not to render. If I can crank up the in viewer settings to ultra with shaders and depth of field, I try it, mostly sometimes for screen shots, if I need to roll it down to the lowest everything with a 20m draw distance, I do that. If its just too choppy, I just, find something else to do.

I am really not going to complain that people's textures are too large when I know the hardware I am using is underpowered or the pipe I am connected to is garbage.

If I really want to go sailing or driving or something? I go use my desktop and crank everything up. If I am just hanging out with one person or making clothes or objects, I can just use pretty much whatever.

Its certainly not going to be worth the time to go and manually edit a bunch of objects and trim out bits to try to make things run a few frames faster, maybe.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:56 AM   #52 (permalink)
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With respect, Penny, if it wasn't at least in part about you being better than everyone else, you wouldn't resort to turns of phrase such as the one quoted above. To put your words another way: "Anyone who doesn't apply Penny Patton's standards doesn't care as much about their money, land and avatar as she cares about hers."
Thatís not what sheís saying. Sheís saying youíre not getting the full value of your money when you make that choice. ďAnd neither should you ifĒ is a turn of phrase used frequently in commercials and such. Youíre adding a sinister context where none exists.

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Frankly, apart from being supercilious and self-important, it is also stupid and shortsighted. You're assuming that what you personally value is somehow the best and only metrics that people should care about. Not everyone gives a shit about being able to mod stuff, Penny. Not everyone cares about getting 60fps. Some people just want to spend a few cents on something pretty, listen to some music and hang out with their friends. They don't care about being able to wring every last drop of performance from Second Life. They don't value doing that, their time is precious and they have other things to do and they do not value their money, land and avatar any less than you do.
The fact that the vast majority of consumers donít care and have been bullied when they do care is why things are the way they are. And thatís directly related to why many people that used to enjoy spending money in SL donít bother anymore.

But, sure. Letís be mad at Penny for pointing out the ridiculous state of things and not, ya know, the actual problems themselves.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:04 AM   #53 (permalink)
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...It's part of her schtick, being stridently holier than thou...
Assuming - just for the sake of the argument - that you are absolutely correct in that. Have any of the actual points Penny has made over the years about improvements in SL performance or maximizing the uses to which you can put a given parcel been in error? I don't think so. Neither where she's talking about optimizations nor where she talks about her other pet peeve, building to scale (and cam tweaks to make that practical) I totally get that she rubs you the wrong way, but for all that the detail of her advice is still good.

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...I am really not going to complain that people's textures are too large when I know the hardware I am using is underpowered or the pipe I am connected to is garbage...
It's also possible that if (a) creators were more diligent in optimizing their creations and (b) you could also mod them further to achieve greater efficiency for your particular purpose you might discover that the hardware isn't as underpowered for SL as you thought and your SL experience across the board would be improved, no matter which platform you were running on.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:13 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ramen Jedburgh View Post
I am really not going to complain that people's textures are too large when I know the hardware I am using is underpowered or the pipe I am connected to is garbage.

If I really want to go sailing or driving or something? I go use my desktop and crank everything up. If I am just hanging out with one person or making clothes or objects, I can just use pretty much whatever.

Its certainly not going to be worth the time to go and manually edit a bunch of objects and trim out bits to try to make things run a few frames faster, maybe.
Lemme tell you a story about a little guy called Niran sitting on his parcel, trying to enjoy the free view down into the center sandbox with nice and fast 70-100 FPS. Sometimes when he's there, there are humans there too, these humans are evil creatures, just one of them makes Niran's framerate drop to a choppy 10 FPS, these 10 FPS aren't even stable, they are jumping between 10-50 FPS according to the FPS counter, yet they feel like less than 10. Poor little Niran tried jellydolling these evil creatures but they seem to not care, they continue killing his framerate even through jellydolling so he has to derender them completely. This happens every time just one of these evil creatures appears on the sandbox, sometimes there are multiple of these. Little Niran is very sad that he can't keep his 70 FPS on a place that is almost empty but instead has to go to a full club of his own kind to get 30 FPS. That makes little Niran very sad. Sad and angry. Some people say you can hear him yell in anger even today, just listen carefully. Little Niran says, if these humans weren't such unoptimized 2 million polygon, 400mb VRAM lagmonsters with 5 times more polygons on a shirt than on Niran's entire Avatar they wouldn't be that bad and he could enjoy his high framerates in most of the places, except those that are just as bad optimized as their Avatars.

The end.



Like seriously now. You are saying that you don't care because you know you're entering Second Life with inferior hardware and just switch to the Desktop if you need more. How about i tell you its useless, if one singular Avatar drops me down by roughly 80% into a completely unstable framerate on a completely empty SIM but an entire club full of hairy monsters doesn't then please explain to me how optimization is not important. Hell these furries aren't even optimizing their Avatars (at least not intentionally like i do) but they are still better and faster to render than one single human, now imagine if they were to optimize their crap. Texture trashing would be unheard of and your framerates would be much higher, i wouldn't just get 30 FPS in a club, this would tranlsate down to lesser hardware too, especially hardware that doesn't get 30 FPS in a club would possibly get 30 FPS then. And don't even get me started on scripts, every time one of these super scripted humans with their 20 HUDs and omega system and whatnot enters the SIM its dying for 10 seconds. Content in Second Life is in dire need of optimization and if Content Creators are not skilled enough to do so then give us mod rights so we can do it ourselves. I've seen enough people i tried to help fixing or optimizing their broken stuff and they told me "it's no mod, sorry".
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:16 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I am saying I don't care because SL is a 10-15 year old piece of software that was a little garbage by the standards of that time and hasn't improved a whole lot and I accept it for what it is.

But I still enjoy it because I don't really care about running everything at 100fps 4k perfection.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:32 AM   #56 (permalink)
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But I still enjoy it because I don't really care about running everything at 100fps 4k perfection.
This is not about 100 FPS 4k perfection, this is about getting usable framerates to begin with, this is about reducing the unnecessary texture spam that causes your textures to trash 10 seconds after logging in, this is about reducing the negative impact your stuff is having on everyone else including the SIM. SL will never be perfect, it doesn't need to but it's junk could still be reduced to a minimum, this would make Second Life more enjoyable for everyone.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:41 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I am saying I don't care because SL is a 10-15 year old piece of software that was a little garbage by the standards of that time and hasn't improved a whole lot and I accept it for what it is.

But I still enjoy it because I don't really care about running everything at 100fps 4k perfection.
And let me be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy SL for what it is. I share information to help people improve their own SL experience. I am fully aware that not everyone can make use of my advice but even they can still benefit from this information being spread around because a more educated market can make better purchasing decisions, putting pressure on creators to improve their work.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:56 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Pre 2007ish, Second Life was viewed, by many, in the same manner as The Sims. It was very, very common to see the two compared, especially The Sims Online community and there was tons of crossover. When SimLand (or whatever they called it) closed in...2008ish I think, many of those that hadn’t already done so came to SL. Putting aside what Linden Lab wanted SL to be and that SL isn’t a game debates and all that jazz, the fact is many people came to SL expecting to be able to customize their avatars, their parcels, and their items because SL was marketed to them that way.

The extent to which everyone wanted to mod wasn’t the same then and isn’t the same now. The way that everyone modded back then isn't the same as it is now (if it were, I’d still be making huge bank running a small texture store). But everyone still wants to customize and how they prioritize their customization preferences are not the same. Some people will spend hours customizing their home decor and/or their avatar. Some people won’t. Some people will tinker with silly details for hours or days. It’s my experience that most people prefer to be able to customize without fear of ruining their stuff. But the learning curve to modding in SL, which was always too steep, has gotten nearly insurmountable for the layman (and that’s often been exploited by bad actors). It’s wrong to think people don’t want to mod by default. It’s never been the case; it’s impossible to look at the popularity of sandbox gaming in general and think no one wants to do that in SL anymore.

The problem is that Linden Lab sucks at this. They suck at setting standardization commonalities. They suck at encouraging or helping optimization practices. They suck at upgrading in ways that are helpful in anyway to maintaining healthy market practices on both the vendor and consumer side. Compounding that problem is a lot of vendors, especially among many big names that set market trends, act in bad faith on many fronts. That’s only gotten worse as the pond has gotten smaller and more incestuous. Further compounding these already compounded problems is the fact that now smaller fish with little influence have to work ten times as hard for a fraction of what they used to get for their efforts just to stay in the water.

For smaller creators, something has to give. There has to be compromise for sanity’s sake and sometimes that means you just have to go with the flow. Consumers have to do the same. I use Maitreya’s body. I hate that it’s no-mod, I hate that by utilizing it, I’m re-enforcing the practices of one of the brands that started the whole no-mod paranoia. But while it’s a choice that compromises my power as a consumer, it’s also the choice that keeps SL enjoyable when I’m in SL (which is less and less and almost nil).

I think people are defensive to Penny’s statements because she doesn’t pepper her phrasing with politeness that we (1) expect disproportionally from women and (2) look for to allow for exceptions to complex situations. But I don’t see the sinister intent others take away. Mostly it’s just basic facts with a focus on best practices. If you aren’t focused on best practices or have to make compromises, it’s not that anyone’s evil for that (okay some people are but they're not here) but that also doesn’t change the facts.

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Old 01-18-2018, 11:06 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I missed if anyone explained it, but...

Invisiprims were broken by changes to how lighting is done in SL. Sadly, there were other uses besides 'alphaing' out bodyparts for shoes and the like, but LL didn't think those other uses were important, and besides, invisiprims were a hack that showed they hadn't though about the need for alphas either.
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:47 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I missed if anyone explained it, but...

Invisiprims were broken by changes to how lighting is done in SL. Sadly, there were other uses besides 'alphaing' out bodyparts for shoes and the like, but LL didn't think those other uses were important, and besides, invisiprims were a hack that showed they hadn't though about the need for alphas either.
I don't exactly see how you get to that topic now (i probably missed it) but invisiprims were bugs, their behavior can be mimicked with alpha layers now and texture editing, that again however means we need to be able to mod stuff in the first place which brings us back to the topic that no-mod is a total no go and needs to go because it makes everything worse for everyone.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I don't exactly see how you get to that topic now (i probably missed it) but invisiprims were bugs, their behavior can be mimicked with alpha layers now and texture editing, that again however means we need to be able to mod stuff in the first place which brings us back to the topic that no-mod is a total no go and needs to go because it makes everything worse for everyone.
To be fair, the Linden water surface isn't going to be modifiable any time soon.
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:18 PM   #62 (permalink)
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To be fair, the Linden water surface isn't going to be modifiable any time soon.
You can't be serious. You want these bugfests of invisiprims back because you are going to use them for an edge case? I think you forgot that invisprims cut out sky, water, alpha, particles, system mesh, cast shadows, receive shadows like a visible solid object and pretty much anything else that has even the slightest alpha in it, including but not limited to 70% of all meshes and objects in Second Life because textures often contain an alpha channel when they shouldn't making them susceptible for occlusion by invisiprims.

We also have some limited kind of invisiprims as of right now. All rigged alpha (with the exception of alpha masking with 0 transparency) causes alphas to be culled too. Never wondered why your rigged hair cuts parts of your clothing or some alpha stuff in the background?




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Old 01-18-2018, 12:23 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I don't exactly see how you get to that topic now (i probably missed it) but invisiprims were bugs, their behavior can be mimicked with alpha layers now and texture editing, that again however means we need to be able to mod stuff in the first place which brings us back to the topic that no-mod is a total no go and needs to go because it makes everything worse for everyone.
Yes, I'm well aware it was a hack -in fact I even said so. Also, my comment was in reference to this...

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I said the same thing over on the other side; The greatest example of why modify is so important is shoes with invisiprims.
I never owned any, but my friends did, and the level of complaining when all their shoes broke...
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:38 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Yes, I'm well aware it was a hack -in fact I even said so. Also, my comment was in reference to this...
I see. Well as furry i was using them for the longest time myself and to be honest i didn't miss them the moment they broke, infact i switched over to alpha layers by the time they broke so it didn't even affect me anymore and as said above you can still cut out or occlude stuff if you know how.

Back then they were a necessary evil, now they are nothing more than broken hacks. Let them die already.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:25 PM   #65 (permalink)
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You can't be serious. You want these bugfests of invisiprims back because you are going to use them for an edge case?
Did I say I wanted them back?

Also, that "edge case" was the single purpose to which I ever put them. They thoroughly sucked, but now we have no replacement whatsoever and no prospect of one despite numerous jiras.

Hmm. I'm talking myself into wanting those bugfests back after all.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Did I say I wanted them back?

Also, that "edge case" was the single purpose to which I ever put them. They thoroughly sucked, but now we have no replacement whatsoever and no prospect of one despite numerous jiras.

Hmm. I'm talking myself into wanting those bugfests back after all.
Alternatively you could log in a bot, have it wear a rigged plane with an alpha texture on it with a single pixel visible, place the bot on water level, have it sit down and thus cut out the water.
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Old 01-18-2018, 04:28 PM   #67 (permalink)
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why cant we just put linden water shader on prims
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:02 PM   #68 (permalink)
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To be fair, the Linden water surface isn't going to be modifiable any time soon.
Closest thing now is water presets in Windlight.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:30 PM   #69 (permalink)
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To me, this is all about how long customers should expect to be satisfied with a purchase. If the stuff we buy is really only intended to last a few months, being able to modify it isn't such a pressing need: what you bought is what you got and so it goes.

But for anything intended to last a year or more, no mod is a time-bomb. The platform advances and the no-mod purchase becomes obsolete in the new environment.
I really related to this comment. Below is a hair I bought several years ago. One of the first mesh hairs on the market. I have worn it almost daily ever since. That is, I did until I puta mesh head on and tried to wear it. As you can see it went to hell. I have tried working with it but, of course, both the hair and head are no mod. I am sure the creator never imagined mesh heads and how they would work when this hair was made. Fair enough, Bad planning but no foul. Except that here we are now and, upon contact, neither creator has any interest in the problem. From what little I have picked up in here, I am not sure there is much to be done anyway. I can wear other hairs from the same era just fine. They are at least resizable and some are even mod. They were built to last!



As for Penny, I truly appreciate people like Penny and even Niran coming in here and sharing relevant information. If their information was not spot on and provably so, then I could possibly see the complaining about attitudes. Its information SL SHOULD be providing, so I am glad someone is willing to take the time and pick up LL's slack and help those of us who are interested in improving our SL experience. Heck, I take abuse from Niran on an almost weekly basis! It is worth though, often deserved, and I appreciate their lengthy conversation and abundance of information.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:08 PM   #70 (permalink)
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This. It's literally what i explained above. Your rigged alpha hair with alpha sorting textures cut out your hair base because it is alpha too resulting in this weird rendering problem, something you can't fix with no mod, something you could fix if it was mod.

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Heck, I take abuse from Niran on an almost weekly basis! It is worth though, often deserved, and I appreciate their lengthy conversation and abundance of information.
You what? More like i'm taking abuse from you every week! Help! She's contacting me every once in a while asking me stuff, i feel abused!
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:59 AM   #71 (permalink)
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It has been suggested that I try to strike a more positive tone. I agree that this might be more effective, but I still feel like sometimes you need to call out misinformation directly, which is why I did so with the most common no-mod justifications people are always throwing around.

Still, here's what I'll be doing for the foreseeable future: showcasing modifications I've done to various content. How I've modified it, why I modified it, and showing off the results. You can read the first example here. The fantastic "Scrapper's Retreat" from CRAnQ. A gorgeous building that can be made even better with some simple changes, thanks to the creator selling it with modify permissions.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:02 AM   #72 (permalink)
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It has been suggested that I try to strike a more positive tone.
It's not like other people have come in with the most positive of tones.
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:26 AM   #73 (permalink)
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It's not like other people have come in with the most positive of tones.
It is not like positive tones have gotten us any progress in this whatsoever.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:07 AM   #74 (permalink)
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It is not like positive tones have gotten us any progress in this whatsoever.
But a balance might be the best approach. I will not sit quietly when someone says something that is demonstrably untrue, but it's also good to show people the positive side of the issue. Show them how they can learn to do simple modding tricks that will improve their own SL experience. Show content creators and sellers ways they can improve their own content and in doing so become more competitive in the marketplace.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:39 AM   #75 (permalink)
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NiranV Dean's Avatar
Cuffing your dreams
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
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SL Join Date: 6th Jan. 2007
Client: Black Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
But a balance might be the best approach. I will not sit quietly when someone says something that is demonstrably untrue, but it's also good to show people the positive side of the issue. Show them how they can learn to do simple modding tricks that will improve their own SL experience. Show content creators and sellers ways they can improve their own content and in doing so become more competitive in the marketplace.
Penny. Read what you just wrote. Do you really, honestly believe that "these" people will ever give a flying fuck?

These people will continue to believe in their wrongdoings, they will eternally hold onto the belief that no-mod is the way to go, no matter what it costs them, no matter how shit they look doing it, no matter what you, me or anyone tells them.

Do you have any idea how much time i've spend trying to explain people how to up their skills, how to improve their content and how to fix even the easiest of these issues. 5 years now i'm actively following the goal of doing so and do you know what i get? You're being shunned upon, everyone hates you, everyone just understands it as complaining, you'll be made fun of and everyone will start ignoring you. Just look at the tags of this topic, whoever that funbag was who tagged "shitpennyisonarampage", it should give you an idea what this is going to end up in.

I'm sorry i have to say it this way but: no amount of nice and positive attitude is going to solve whatever conspiracy-level bullshit that is going on with this content creator no-mod thing, i've been watching this long enough and even in this very topic from reading through a few posts all i can see is customers who agree and content creators, who themselves do it, disagree and try to protect no-mod at all costs for the bane of us all and i'm not even speaking of those customers who give a fuck or don't want to give a fuck and just want to buy whatever they want because "buy a better PC". We are literally walking in circles here.

We need to burn down this entire false veneer that is this closed-economy circle jerking, self-righteous, conspiracy-level no-mod bullshit and hang their creators. Trust me, i've had A LOT of people tell me now how shit in there works, friends who worked "for" them to try and break their closed economy bullshit somehow, it failed.... and the next time i hear about a 5000L$ head being sold i'm going to blow that goddamn place up myself. (i'm in need of some nuclear explosion emoticon here)
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