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Old 01-16-2018, 11:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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@Spirits Rising.....hey, is your avie the fox found in the opening credits of True Blood ?
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:00 AM   #27 (permalink)
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@Spirits Rising.....hey, is your avie the fox found in the opening credits of True Blood ?
You mean the avatar I use for here? No idea actually.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:25 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I am certain most people generally avoid contacting creators if possible, for various reasons, even if it means potentially getting something they want.
This is *mostly* true for residents that came into SL around 2007/8 or earlier. It is the opposite for residents that came after. There are armies of SL customers who contact creators immediately without any attempt at self-diagnosing problems.

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Originally Posted by Vaelissa Cortes View Post
In most cases I'd groan at the creator for not wanting to deal with customer support/requests since that comes with the territory of having the shop.
It depends on the creator and the shop. Time is not an infinite resource. As a consumer I must recognize that. But I also recognize it tends to be the vendors that make the most money that have the most ridiculous policies and restrictions. That is one of the problems. Power players frequently do what they want for their vanity or convenience not caring how it screws customers, then hide behind the challenges faced by smaller shop owners to sidestep customer pushback.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:51 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vaelissa Cortes View Post
In most cases I'd groan at the creator for not wanting to deal with customer support/requests since that comes with the territory of having the shop. In your case though I can kind of understand the reasoning since, while I am not familiar with your products, they sound more complex and prone to problems than usual if people mess with them.
Read my lips.. the script OVERRIDES ANY CHANGE.. and sets it back to how it was.

even if made moddable.. it is no moddable. If anyone wants one to have as an unscripted moddable item.. we are happy to oblige.
I have had less than 10 (probably only about 3 or 4 to be honest) requests out of tens of thousands of sales.

And as for not contacting creators.. you are tarring all with the same brush.. there are many approchable and responsible creators out there.

If someone wants copy mod items only, then they should buy those exclusively and avoid all others.
Its simple.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:56 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I do not see how distributing mod version gets you more customer service tickets. It does not if the original box and/or folder are copyable (seen those which are not and editing those is a pain in the arse).

Ultimately, if I buy a product - I always want to make sure I can edit and copy it as various sets take different settings plus SL and I bugger things a lot. If it is a template - I will hunt the original full perm one if whatever store makes it un-editable. Hell, even if I must pay a license for conversion and use in SL. I just dislike stern rules in game mods this much plus I do like supporting original artist work (however, it displays differently on different systems).

Also ... nothing stops anyone from editing item on their local machine as essentially the limit is SL not commiting changes on server. I did edit plenty textures like that or toggled off full bright or change specular maps ... so on so forth.

I do agree on script side - if you can view it, you can as well copy it and take credit so better if those which do not need editing stay no-mod; not the object or prim per se as sometimes you need to remove scripts.

I apply same policy in real world so if I like a shirt ... I can buy it and mod it hence size sample is not grand as in theory can take whatever part you wish and make a whole new garment out of it. The key is - recognising that you are not the original author. Music albums are a grand example - if I buy one, I want to have it on as many devices I can thus I need the ability to get tracks off it and transfer them. However, if I wished to put it on in public - that would require a license and artists' permissions.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:47 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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And here I thought no-mod sound clips were the most pointless restriction.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:59 AM   #33 (permalink)
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And as for not contacting creators.. you are tarring all with the same brush.. there are many approchable and responsible creators out there.
No, I'm really not. It should go without saying that there are many who are approchable and happily grant reasonable requests (and I praise some in the Optimization thread!), but there are enough who are not that I've gotten to the point where I generally don't like to bother if it can be avoided. There have been so many times I've chucked a purchase up to being a lost cause and not being in the mood of possibly dealing with an unplesant or unaccommodating person due to the record of past experiences.

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If someone wants copy mod items only, then they should buy those exclusively and avoid all others.
Its simple.
Very, and it's typically what I do if not making something myself.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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And if the SL market were still closer to an even playing field, Id be more sympathetic to this view. But the failure of Linden Lab to address and update the gap between the quality of the basic avatar and quality of the avatars the majority of the user base wants to use has created a bunch of power players and walled gardens that have significantly disadvantaged consumer power.
This is definitely a problem. I don't even make regular avatar clothes anymore on templates that don't include the standard mesh bodies, much less system clothing.

Somewhat related, I think the new starter Avatars are mesh bodies but are they even cross compatible with themselves? Do they offer any level of customizing on the body itself? Do they work with clothes beyond what's included?
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:32 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I do not see how distributing mod version gets you more customer service tickets. It does not if the original box and/or folder are copyable (seen those which are not and editing those is a pain in the arse).
I think you are giving the average user too much credit.

The idea of "just provide a box for a fresh copy" is great, except people will.

* Forget they have that box.

* Not be able to find that box.

* Not even think of just doing that.

There were two things that happened that suggest a lot of users can't handle "boxes". One, the MP started letting you deliver raw items, which I beleive wasn't always a thing. So you could get "stuff" instead of a box that you have to find a sandbox to rez. Two, they added the received items folder, so you could actually find this stuff easily, most likely because people would buy things and then not be able to find them.
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:50 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:42 AM   #37 (permalink)
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...More and more the average user cared less and less about being able to directly modify what they bought for their avatars. Don't believe me? Ask yourself just exactly why those who refuse to sell their wares as mod are still in business.
Well, let's shed a little more light on that time period, since you aren't the only one on here who was there, I assure you...

The average user either never knew how or never cared to. Some of us did, however. I'd - for example - buy a hair from one vendor, a hat from another and be faced with it being impossible to make them look right together. However, hat and hair are both modifiable so I could scale the hat so it didn't look like I was wearing a traffic cone on my head and combine it with a modded version of my everyday hair that had a couple of locks snipped out or bits of it judiciously resized or shifted to maintain its looks and yet not clip obviously through the hat. You may say I wasn't an "average" user and no, I wasn't - what I was, however, was a technically aware user with a modicum of prim-twisting skills AND probably one of the hat-makers best customers since without those skills you simply couldn't make most hairs look good with a hat that was realistically sized to the avatar head.

There was indeed this huge swing away from selling mod perm clothing and avatar attachments. It had nothing to do with customer preferences. It was all about copybot. Copybot hysteria erupted like Mt Vesuvius and whole stores that sold mod-perm items went to no-mod across the board in the mistaken belief that it made a difference. Even LL bought into it, applying the figleaf that prevented downloading of textures that you hadn't created even if they were full-perm - this made no difference either*. Items started to not fit, people started complaining about being unable to retint items so immediately there was a flush of badly-written resize and recolor scripts being packaged into every attachment. Eventually creators wised up and made those scripts capable of self-deleting once the item was fitted but I'm sure you remember what it was like at first.

So what did people like me do who were skilled enough to do it but could no longer properly fit items in combination? Rather than accept that we couldn't make our avs look as "right" as we used to we stuck with our existing items and stopped buying new ones. The unaware user who was still perfectly happy wearing hats that were obviously 20 sizes too big for their head or to have their hair clip through it or simply gave up on wearing hats, they carried on as usual but over the following year three of my favorite places to buy hats in SL went out of business.

And still creators - even those that should know better or newer ones who weren't around for the 'bot-panic (but have absorbed the misinformation from their mentors by osmosis) - are resistant to mod-perm and the amount of mod-perm stuff on the grid has not recovered. And it's all based on bullshit. And folks who know what they are about still won't buy from you if it's no-mod and they have any other choice


* The fact was that there was - and is - absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent ripping of an objects geometry or its textures if it is to be rendered on the users screen or played through the users speakers. It's trivial to do even for a non-technical user, without ever touching the viewer. Nomod scripts can't be stolen - they are only server side. Anims require a hacked viewer to rip. Every other asset, of whatever type, if anyone capable of reading and following one of the dozens of step by step howtos on the net wants it and is prepared to rip it, they can without any problem whatsoever. The howtos aren't SL-specific because the ripping methods aren't. They use features of the system drivers which NOTHING in SL or the viewer or in any other game can interfere with.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:22 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I make everything mod, except my scripts and the notecards or them, since those hold my textures.

I make most everything copy, except for gacha items, and -anyone-, not just the original purchaser, can send me the trans version and get the copy version, or they can buy a copy/mod version that I usually have available.

If someone ever asked for the uvmap to make their own textures, I'd provide it.

And part of why I make jewelry [besides the fact 'ooooooo shinies!' and am trying to learn rigging for clothing, is because I'm tired of not being able to mod my things.

And man, one of the things I really miss about prim hair is modding it to wear hats. PArt of why I stopped making hats, too, because its too hard to make them work without making hair specifically for them.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramen Jedburgh View Post
I think you are giving the average user too much credit.

The idea of "just provide a box for a fresh copy" is great, except people will.

* Forget they have that box.

* Not be able to find that box.

* Not even think of just doing that.

There were two things that happened that suggest a lot of users can't handle "boxes". One, the MP started letting you deliver raw items, which I beleive wasn't always a thing. So you could get "stuff" instead of a box that you have to find a sandbox to rez. Two, they added the received items folder, so you could actually find this stuff easily, most likely because people would buy things and then not be able to find them.
I think most of it is just people disliking opening those boxes. Did see some who were confused but usually noobs who got it after being explained how to handle them. Not sure on stats of how many delete the original box (am sure some do not copy the folder or item when modifying as done that myself :/ ) but usually not many unless it was an insignificant item.

To be fair, I never had a shop and only ran old time fashion shows (that was during SL Exchange times) so loads changed since then. However, would be interested on anything on the current 'average user' as lots of the above seems speculative (I assume it is not and comes from experience) - users who were not interested in SL mechanics just did not stay long as it is not the best game / tool to deal with when you want simplicity.

Then again, digital media changed a lot and with that what average user is. My usual understanding is warped as I grown up in Poland where average computer user used to have to do most on their own as there used to be no proper support (it is pretty much same like any other market in EU now, just more overpriced).

So ... in my understanding you all fit average user persona to me whilst the examples of people tossing boxes upon hapless sandboxes being the minority (okay ... it took me some time to discover content tab...).
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
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It is difficult to do comparison shopping in Second Life. That is in part because of the learning curve in understanding a lot of the relevant technical deals. And unless Marketplace has changed recently, it is in part because Marketplace Search is useless.

If customers can't do effective comparison shopping, then market is not going to penalize merchants who make pointlessly limited or grossly under-optimized products; neither will the market reward merchants who provide high value.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:21 PM   #41 (permalink)
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To me, this is all about how long customers should expect to be satisfied with a purchase. If the stuff we buy is really only intended to last a few months, being able to modify it isn't such a pressing need: what you bought is what you got and so it goes.

But for anything intended to last a year or more, no mod is a time-bomb. The platform advances and the no-mod purchase becomes obsolete in the new environment.

Now, there are plenty of buyers who only buy stuff they'll use for a while then trash, and there's nothing wrong with sellers who cater to that market. But it's only fair that those sellers and those buyers be up-front with themselves: they're creators and consumers of disposable content.

Creators old enough to remember when Materials were introduced: If you sold no-mod content before that point, did you provide refunds to customers who could not apply Materials to rejuvenate their suddenly comparatively shabby-looking purchases?

Creators who sell no-mod clothing for mesh avatars: When scripted auto-hide (aka "auto-alpha") became standard-issue for mesh avatars (maybe six months ago?), did you distribute updates with auto-hide scripts for every mesh avatar past, present and future? Or did you instead refund the buyers?

If not, these no-mod creations are disposable content simply because they're no-mod -- and that's a valid market as long as neither party expects better.
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I said the same thing over on the other side; The greatest example of why modify is so important is shoes with invisiprims.
I never owned any, but my friends did, and the level of complaining when all their shoes broke...
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:03 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I said the same thing over on the other side; The greatest example of why modify is so important is shoes with invisiprims.
I never owned any, but my friends did, and the level of complaining when all their shoes broke...
I seen hair doing precisely the same just few weeks ago; do not remember by whom as dumped the demo as if burned. I am not sure if invisible prims used to cause scripts to bugger as somehow items using those broke when ... doing anything ... or after some time. Best example I have is old GOS Dr. Martens.

On topic of average user again - true, hard to compare as too broad of a scope BUT one thing puzzles me. If some users are not bothered by technicals and optimisation ... how on Earth did they manage to survive this long? Just about everything and anything breaks every week in most viewers and on the grid. You have to stay on top of best drivers, maintain clean and secure system, know basics of 3D optimisation and graphic hardware terms (took me ages to find optimal driver settings). To be fair, SL pushed me into a lot of things hardware and software wise than no other game did (second contender is Fallout New Vegas).

It is not to say I am any better than other users as yep all people use things differently and it is cool, plus great if those things are simple for all to enjoy.

On topic of market - well, the introduction of Marketplace was grand and convenient but it might have narrowed down variety and reach of smaller businesses. Not sure on how search is broken as usually works fine for me so must look into it. Sorting is wonky or I presume it is as best seller options are same as relevant keyword ones. Unless there is a way to filter out certain permissions and I probably just forgot it as 5 am.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:37 AM   #45 (permalink)
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What I do not do however, is try and snidely imply I'm morally superior to people who don't care as much about their extremely minor virtual purchases as I do.
Like Vaelissa points out, it has nothing to do with being morally superior. It is a statement of fact that no-mod comes with costs which may not be immediately obvious to a lot of people.

No-mod mesh bodies/hair/etcetera seriously strict your ability to customize or optimize your avatar.

Nearly all SL content you purchase to rez on your land comes with unfortunate issues which prevent you from getting the full value of your land, essentially a hidden "no-mod tax" which you pay for every single time you pay tier.

Opinions, preferences and morality have absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Old 01-18-2018, 04:10 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Nothing worth quoting.
Every single time I post here, you come in, click the little *groan* button and say "There's no fixing anything, just stop talking about it!" This is the only "contribution" I've ever seen you make to any discussion on this forum and here's the thing;

Land is cheaper for me than it is for you. What would cost you $300 a month doesn't cost me a dime.

I can get higher framerates than you on a machine that cost a fraction of whatever you paid for your hardware, and I'm probably getting better graphics, too.

This isn't a brag, it's a fact. I know things that let me get more out of SL than you can imagine. What's more, I like to share that knowledge. Every time I post something it's to spread information, awareness, to help other people get a bit more out of second life, or even just to get people talking about something that seems to go largely ignored. Questioning things they might take for granted. And it works. Regularly I log into SL and find a "You don't know me but I just want to say thanks for sharing this information, it's helped me a lot!" message.

I don't expect to change SL completely, and certainly not overnight from a single forum post. Knowing I've helped even a few people get more out of SL is enough.

But you, you're extremely vocal about how I shouldn't try and share any information that would help anyone. You revel in ignorance and become outright belligerent at just the possibility of someone else learning to get even a little bit more enjoyment out of SL.

So, with all due respect, fuck off.
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Old 01-18-2018, 04:47 AM   #47 (permalink)
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You have always refused to listen to anyone who dares to disagree with you, both here and in the official forum. At least here you can receive the response such bullshit deserves.

How about YOU fuck off, hmm?

You're not looking for discussion nor to share information. You're looking for yes men.

Present your information, give your OPINION on how best to operate/use Second Life and get off that high horse.

ETA: I've made use of your camera placement tips/settings and even used your shapes as a base for some of the avatar changes I have saved. In these areas, you do rather good work. I've seen you toss up the comparison images of your avatar to showcase what modding and alteration can accomplish ... on that last, try as you might some parts often look as though they belong in a late Nintendo 64 or early Gamecube game.

This obsession/crusade of yours is, quite frankly, irritating and unbecoming.

Put the information out there, occasionally point those interested to it, maybe poke the relevant thread(s) on occasion to keep the links and information close to the top ... and move the fuck on.

You log in to random messages from users thanking you for the information? That's lovely! True or not, it's utterly irrelevant.

I generally don't bother responding directly to you simply because others generally cover what I have to say, sometimes far better. I've also gone around and around with you, elsewhere. I have very little desire to do so again, not with your arrogant attitude.

You've been reminded here and over on the official forum that your views are not the end all, be all. You say you post truth? Here's truth for you: You have your way of using Second Life and the resources at your disposal while others have their own ways. Like it or not, you come off as telling people that any way but your's is wrong.

Once again, time to get over yourself.

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Old 01-18-2018, 04:58 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Like Vaelissa points out, it has nothing to do with being morally superior. It is a statement of fact that no-mod comes with costs which may not be immediately obvious to a lot of people.
O'rly?

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My opinion on no-mod content is no secret. I will almost never buy no-mod and neither should you if you value your money, your land or your avatar.
With respect, Penny, if it wasn't at least in part about you being better than everyone else, you wouldn't resort to turns of phrase such as the one quoted above. To put your words another way: "Anyone who doesn't apply Penny Patton's standards doesn't care as much about their money, land and avatar as she cares about hers."

Frankly, apart from being supercilious and self-important, it is also stupid and shortsighted. You're assuming that what you personally value is somehow the best and only metrics that people should care about. Not everyone gives a shit about being able to mod stuff, Penny. Not everyone cares about getting 60fps. Some people just want to spend a few cents on something pretty, listen to some music and hang out with their friends. They don't care about being able to wring every last drop of performance from Second Life. They don't value doing that, their time is precious and they have other things to do and they do not value their money, land and avatar any less than you do.
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:31 AM   #49 (permalink)
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O'rly?
With respect, Penny, if it wasn't at least in part about you being better than everyone else, you wouldn't resort to turns of phrase such as the one quoted above.
I have never read what Penny has to say as her thinking she is better than anyone, only her showing people abetter way to do things, which is quite different. How somebody interprets what's being said, and what's actually being said aren't always going to be the same things.


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Not everyone gives a shit about being able to mod stuff, Penny. Not everyone cares about getting 60fps. Some people just want to spend a few cents on something pretty, listen to some music and hang out with their friends. They don't care about being able to wring every last drop of performance from Second Life. They don't value doing that, their time is precious and they have other things to do and they do not value their money, land and avatar any less than you do.
You are very right in that not everyone cares about modding, most people just want to log in and enjoy things, and I firmly believe they should be able to do just that. However, due to Second Life's very nature of being more complex than the average game, everyone has to learn quite a bit to get the most out of what they enjoy doing. Even just grasping mesh bodies, system bodies, appliers and all the clothing and body part compatibility confuses the living shit out of new users, so if your typical fashionista can get that down, then why can't they understand how to do something as simple as changing alpha to masked, or scaling an object (which they will already no doubt know how to do)? Penny is pointing out the benefits of being able to do very simple things for significant gains. It is not rocket science.

The majority of the Second Life user base also very much cares about performace and looking pretty. Go find a somebody out there who prefers single digit FPS and a slow loading, gray world filled with avatars that crash their viewer over smooth performance, quick loading of everything and higher stability. You won't find such a person.

Most people would also love more land, but can't justify the price. One of the most requested premium perks is more land, but people don't realize they can get more out of what they already have.

Most all of the fault here lies with the creators of the items people purchase, but should a consumer take an interest in trying to improve things for themselves, it is nice to have both the ability to do so, and helpful guides on how to go about doing it. If it's not something they care about, then they can find another forum thread.

Last edited by Vaelissa Cortes; 01-18-2018 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Oops, meant masked alpha.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:14 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vaelissa Cortes View Post
I have never read what Penny has to say as her thinking she is better than anyone, only her showing people abetter wayto do things, which is quite different. How somebody interprets what's being said, and what's actually being said aren't always going to be the same things.
I'm not going to spend the time digging through other posts that she's made here, on her blog and in other places, but this is hardly the first time I've seen turns of phrase like the one I've been highlighting pop up. It's part of her schtick, being stridently holier than thou, so when you say you don't really see it, I really don't know how to respond beyond saying "I think you're wrong, it's very clearly there" and leave it at that.
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