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FlipperPA Peregrine · 06-18-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

Are we expecting the other grids to micromanage all these issues also? How many staff will they have? And how many legal advisors?

I don't expect that at all. What do I expect is twofold:

(1) Many content creators will want to create in a system where their IP rights are well enforced, so if LL gets behind it, they'll keep a lot of their current market, and

(2) LL could create a future market by allowing others to link servers / grids into their central cluster for a fee, rule wise and economy wise.

Big problems to solve, as you know having attended the OpenSim AWG sessions.

Regards,

-Flip

**Psyke Phaeton** · 06-18-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlipperPA Peregrine

I don't expect that at all. What do I expect is twofold:

(1) Many content creators will want to create in a system where their IP rights are well enforced, so if LL gets behind it, they'll keep a lot of their current market, and

(2) LL could create a future market by allowing others to link servers / grids into their central cluster for a fee, rule wise and economy wise.

Big problems to solve, as you know having attended the OpenSim AWG sessions.

Regards,

-Flip

This might clarify the dispute but who is going to police the dispute and enforce the rules or rulings?

FlipperPA Peregrine · 06-18-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

This might clarify the dispute but who is going to police the dispute and enforce the rules or rulings?

Blue Linden is going to publish his log from his office hour this evening, where a lot of ideas were discussed. A lot of good ideas came out of this - I'll cross post them here when they come through.

Ten · 06-18-2008, 10:44 PM

I thought Blue only held hours on the Teen Grid.

mcgeeb Gupte · 06-18-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlipperPA Peregrine

(3) Many content creators rely on SL for a good percentage of how their feed their families. For the same reason content thieves piss me off so much for this reason, the most affected content creators won't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

-Flip

As much as I hate it, I do rely on it. I never intended for that to happen it just did. If SL ever shuts down, its going to hurt. I will need to find a part time job somewhere else. Working on SL lets me stay with the kids more.
I appreciate all of the honest customers that stop at my store and am willing to do everything "within reason" that I can to show that appreciation.
Shame on thieves for believing that the content that they stole won't hurt anyone or even SL in the long run.

Mortvent · 06-19-2008, 12:56 AM

it's not a simple database query to remove stolen content.

Take the animations in the biab kits. They are the same UUID as the legit ones, show the original maker, and in fact are the same item as the legal ones(permissions do not change the UUID).

So to remove them from circulation, you would have to create new copies of them to send to the legit users. Then remove the old ones from the grid, and walk all your clients through the update to the new ones.

There is also the onus on hosting services to keep the content there, in case of a counterclaim. Which nets the original filer nothing but a real name to sue, but once that counter claim is filed the content must be restored completely.

Brenda Archer · 06-19-2008, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

Seems normal. Don't some Estates accept payment by paypal rather than ?

I recall OpenLifeGrid FAQ somewhere saying about an internal economy: "Not Yet" but all the others don't seem to mention it.

My guess is that long term either the will be the standard if LL can keep control of Virtual Worlds, and if not it will be the and then diversifying into multiple foreign currencies perhaps exchanged/traded by PayPal. People could pay a bill via PayPal in their own currency.

There is a small chance someone else will rise up and make a virtual currency but I think PayPal is too entrenched. Ebay sales would happen also but I don't see this as being very mainstream. However this makes me think of Ebay as being used to auction off virtual land or artificially scarce digital items.

Is the L$ going to die? I guess it depends on if the SL database can keep a hold on the popular virtual worlds item storage.

Going even further will you eventually be able to hook up your avatar directly to your bank account like you can with Ebay or PayPal?

It seems harder and harder to see SL as just play and just pretend.

Vermont OKs the Creation of Virtual Corporations - GigaOM

And if it is not pretend, how can WSE be pretend? Capital Gains from WSE??

But I digress...

First I just have to say that I already thought Vermont was Paradise having lived there in RL, this just makes it better

I know that ACS takes PayPal for rent payments, which are large enough to be real money.

This is part of what gave me the idea of an off-grid community paid for by a rental, or even a membership, model rather than a micropayment model.

On the other hand... if LL can solve the micropayment and inventory problems over connecting grids, SL could persist as a kind of economic core for expanding grids. That has got to be a future worth a lot of money to them.

Would governments tolerate artificial currencies if they became serious business and not just a toy? Could some little island of a country somewhere make itself over as Virtual Currency, Inc.? Could someone like PayPal set up a good micropayment method attached to the avatar? Pennies and Lindens are already on the same order of magnitude anyway. It just needs to be very cheap to do the transaction.

Much to think about!

**Psyke Phaeton** · 06-19-2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda Archer

Would governments tolerate artificial currencies if they became serious business and not just a toy?

Virtual world: tax man cometh - BizTech - Technology - smh.com.au

Mortvent · 06-19-2008, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

Virtual world: tax man cometh - BizTech - Technology - smh.com.au

As is till it is converted into real dollars it's not considered income.

Once it's converted then you pay taxes on it as income.

Brenda Archer · 06-19-2008, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

Virtual world: tax man cometh - BizTech - Technology - smh.com.au

Fascinating. I know the IRS requires income above the hobby level to be treated as ordinary business income. That part is ok to me. The part that wouldn't be okay is a tax on transactions, since micropayment transactions already have to be cheap to process in order to make sense. Let's hope governments see this before doing something dumb.

**Psyke Phaeton** · 06-19-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortvent

As is till it is converted into real dollars it's not considered income.

Once it's converted then you pay taxes on it as income.

In Aus it is income by virtue of its ability to become $AU. Not at conversion. And this is where it all gets weird because it means you have to have records of $L transactions!!

Not only that the Aus Tax Office has no clear distinction on a hobby vs a business especially when it involves virtual worlds.

ATO - Do I have a business?

I am considering getting a tax ruling to clarify things. Because I have a hobby from a real life perspective but it looks like a business in the virtual world.

So how real is virtual?

Mortvent · 06-19-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda Archer

Fascinating. I know the IRS requires income above the hobby level to be treated as ordinary business income. That part is ok to me. The part that wouldn't be okay is a tax on transactions, since micropayment transactions already have to be cheap to process in order to make sense. Let's hope governments see this before doing something dumb.

right now they treat Lindens like stock

It's virtual income, with a fluctuating value.

It's only when you cash out that they can and will tax it.

Tammy Nowotny · 06-19-2008, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda Archer

On the other hand... if LL can solve the micropayment and inventory problems over connecting grids, SL could persist as a kind of economic core for expanding grids. That has got to be a future worth a lot of money to them.

Would governments tolerate artificial currencies if they became serious business and not just a toy?

The Linden Bucks micropayment system works great. It's one of the few things in SL which actually works. But there are definitely political issues which can and will arise. Governments are pretty jealous about their currencies, althoug luckily the L$ came along at the same time as a truly international RL currency, the Euro.

What LL has trouble with is macropayments.

Mortvent · 06-19-2008, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyke Phaeton

In Aus it is income by virtue of its ability to become . Not at conversion. And this is where it all gets weird because it means you have to have records of transactions!!

Not only that the Aus Tax Office has no clear distinction on a hobby vs a business especially when it involves virtual worlds.

ATO - Do I have a business?

I am considering getting a tax ruling to clarify things. Because I have a hobby from a real life perspective but it looks like a business in the virtual world.

So how real is virtual?

Ask them how to figure it with a variable transfer rate.

Since the transfer rate is variable much like stock prices, how do they plan to convert it to taxible.

And will they take payment in lindens.

**Beebo Brink** · 06-19-2008, 01:49 PM

In order to count as a business rather than a hobby, the U.S. tax laws require that you actually make a profit. By the time you deduct all my expenses for tier, image uploads and tools, it is altogther and painfully obvious that this is a hobby.

06-18-2008, 10:44 PM	#104 (permalink)
Ten Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 6,918 My Mood: SL Join Date: 10/7/2006 Awards: 1	I thought Blue only held hours on the Teen Grid. __________________ Shopping Cart Disco http://www.shoppingcartdisco.com THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES.

06-19-2008, 01:49 PM	#115 (permalink)
Beebo Brink Uppity Alt SLU Supporter I'm the woman your mother warned you about. Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,868 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 19 SL Join Date: October 2006 Business: Brazen Women Shapes and Skins	In order to count as a business rather than a hobby, the U.S. tax laws require that you actually make a profit. By the time you deduct all my expenses for tier, image uploads and tools, it is altogther and painfully obvious that this is a hobby. __________________ Browse http://www.BrazenWomen.com

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06-19-2008, 12:56 AM	#106 (permalink)
Mortvent Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 283 My Mood:	it's not a simple database query to remove stolen content. Take the animations in the biab kits. They are the same UUID as the legit ones, show the original maker, and in fact are the same item as the legal ones(permissions do not change the UUID). So to remove them from circulation, you would have to create new copies of them to send to the legit users. Then remove the old ones from the grid, and walk all your clients through the update to the new ones. There is also the onus on hosting services to keep the content there, in case of a counterclaim. Which nets the original filer nothing but a real name to sue, but once that counter claim is filed the content must be restored completely.

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