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Old 04-13-2017, 06:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Willowdale Estates

Ok this might be a bit of a rant, so I apologise in advance.

Been renting at Willowdale for a long time now. Got told this week that she would be selling the sim that I live on and that she wanted me out by the weekend. I could extend it for a few days but seemed silly with others moving out. She asked me to look at other lots. Got a notecard...would you consider a move. Offered a free week, keep my discount ok, always had a good relationship and they have always been a good landlady, so I looked.
Nothing the same size or tier and size of my house meant I couldn't really tier down.

Ok, I was a bit miffed, thinking now spending Easter re-landscaping a new place that I find (I always spend a lot of time landscaping, setting up stuffs). But ok, life happens, nothing to get angry about. No same size plots So I looked further afield. Found a new place, no worries. Wasn't too much time to look long etc.

Asked for the advance rental I paid to be refunded as I paid that in good faith for the parcel I lived on and the spot. I always choose sunset side, etc.

Told there will be no refund. Blimey!

I didn't ask to move. was quite happy with them. Is this fair? I'm a bit confused by it all. I had lived there a long time in 2 stints.

I'm feeling a little hard done by. Perhaps I am wrong. I am not going to hate on them, they have always been sweet, but I thought I rented a parcel not a place in an estate. They made a kind offer which I thought was to tempt me to move and make it more painless, what I didn't know was that there was no choice in the offer and that I had to move or lose my advanced rental.

What played on my mind is if they are closing that sim, what about the next time. Also saw lots of locked parcels at the residents centre which kind of raised a little more suspicion. I didn't want to set up again and then be moved again. Of course that risk can happen anywhere in SL.

I was told the convenient states no refunds no exceptions but always assumed was that was if I chose to leave, and leave I mean the parcel I had chosen and paid in advance for.

Also they are closing the sim, so whilst I understand they pay Linden in advance also, they wouldn't be paying the tier that I had paid for.

I don't wish any ills on them. Life is too short.

Guess the money is gone, a lesson learnt.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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If the estate owner can't afford to keep a sim going, then they can't afford to keep the sim going. The land market isn't nearly as good as it used to be, and I don't think they can be faulted for needing to get rid of something if the profit isn't there anymore.

I think when it comes to renting from an estate owner, full sims/homesteads are the most guaranteed secure option since you are covering the cost of the entire sim itself. Where as with individual parcels, everyone in the sim as a whole has to be consistently pulling enough weight to make it worth while for the estate owner.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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A "no-refund" policy means the merchant will not undo a transaction with a customer by accepting a return of the product for return of the payment, because the customer does not like or no longer wants the product. You were not really asking for a refund, because as you said, you did not want to back out of the parcel rental. You were asking for a return of your advance money because the merchant told you she would not provide the product for which you already paid.

That is an important distinction in real life. In Second Life, a half-a-billion dollar economy operates without laws, regulations, ethics, or sense. When you press the button to make a payment, you are never seeing that money again, and you are operating on faith that you will actually get that for which you paid.

I had a similar situation when I first came to Second Life. An estate parcel I rented was sold one day, and the new owner kicked me out. But I did not just lose an advance rent payment. Back then, it was still customary to "buy" estate parcels from estate owners the same way mainland parcels are bought. I had "bought" the parcel for L$ 79,000.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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So I may not have agreed with Imagin in the past, but as a fellow estate owner I just have to say that's part of the business. Perhaps I can offer some insight...

Back during the great grid collapse of 2008-2011 where even the giant estates were imploding right before our eyes. During those years I had to shave 3 regions off our 13 region estate. Let me tell you, that was not fun. I was very attached to the regions, and a lot of my residents are also my friends too. Emotionally I wanted to keep it all. Financially it was a terrible idea. My options were to keep the region and put the estate as a whole at risk, or cut off an arm to save the body.

I do have regrets that those regions are gone, but I think it was the smartest and most difficult choices I've ever made. Because if you only have a handful of people paying $15 to live on a region that costs $300 a month, that's just not a viable solution. Paying full price for an empty region for one month, eats any profit you could have made for maybe a dozen regions.

When I had to get rid of my regions, I carefully, and thoughtfully contacted each person explaining the situation. In every instance where I got rid of a region, most people were okay with a move to a different part of the estate. Others were upset, but they understood that it needed to be done. And always one person would throw a fit over it no matter how much you explained it.

With what she's offering it sounds like she's at least trying to make it right. She's not deleting everything you paid for in advance, she's offering to move it to a new chunk of land AND give you a free week on top of that. For an estate owners it's hard and costly to remove such an expensive asset from the estate, and harder still to try to talk with residents about it. She ultimately wants to keep you as a resident, even if she has to consolidate regions. It may seem like a meager offering of a free week, but that could easily be any profit she might have made from your tier for the next month or two; depending on her pricing structure.

As for the no refunds thing. Estate owners pay Linden Lab in advance. Any linden payments we receive from you are already spent paying for the region that month. I too, don't offer refunds for that very reason.

What about next time? Don't pay anything more than the minimum you're willing to part with, that way you don't have that much to lose if it ever happens again.

@Vaelissa The land market is doing really well! At least for me.

@Amity Was that back when regions cost $1650 just in setup costs? In the early days of my estate, I too had "buy-in" prices, but not that expensive. Now my land just costs 4 weeks of tier, all of which is credited to your time at the moment of purchase.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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@Amity Was that back when regions cost $1650 just in setup costs? In the early days of my estate, I too had "buy-in" prices, but not that expensive. Now my land just costs 4 weeks of tier, all of which is credited to your time at the moment of purchase.
If I recall it was August-ish 2007. It was an 8192 sqm plot, and the purchase price as I recall was in-line with what I saw on mainland, and all estates were selling parcels like that at the time. It was an expensive lesson about the Second Life economy.
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Old 04-14-2017, 02:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
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My complaint is not with the fact she has to sell the sim, I fully understand that. Yes she made a reasonable offer and tried to put things right. My point is I did not ask to move, I had paid in advance in good faith. I don't think I should have been penalised for refusing the offer. I was a long term renter and even introduced some friends to her estate who took plots.

If I was offered the same size parcel, with a sunset view I most probably would have taken it. The only option for me was to tier up unless I was going to buy a new house and not have the same set up
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Seems to me the landlord is in the wrong. If you paid in advance for something the landlord is no longer willing to provide you should get the outstanding advance back. In the real world this could easily end up in court, why should unscrupulous landlords get away with it just because it's SL ?
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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why should unscrupulous landlords get away with it just because it's SL ?
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:44 AM   #9 (permalink)
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As for the no refunds thing. Estate owners pay Linden Lab in advance. Any linden payments we receive from you are already spent paying for the region that month. I too, don't offer refunds for that very reason.
Yes but I was given 3 days notice. I had over 3 weeks left. Why are they paying LL for a sim they are selling? So basically they are using my cash to fund other land.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:33 AM   #10 (permalink)
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In the real world this could easily end up in court, why should unscrupulous landlords get away with it just because it's SL ?
It's hard to sue someone when you don't have their name and address. Not to mention the net financial loss of spending thousands of dollars to recover hundreds or tens of dollars.
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Old 04-14-2017, 03:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Make that 2 days notice. Told today to clear it out.

As soon as they realised I wouldn't be moving to another one of her plots I guess it turns a little messy

Nice

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Old 04-14-2017, 05:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I don't really have anything to add that others haven't already said, but I'm sorry to hear about all this.

On one hand I want to recommend just getting your land through LL on the mainland, but that has its own pitfalls. It is cheaper, tho, and you never need to worry about the sim vanishing out from under you.
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Old 04-14-2017, 05:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm sorry to see the pickle you are in, so it is kind of squishy to mention this bit .. most other SL-sponsoring landlords seem to like to have these threads deleted, but Imagin Illyar has at least been good enough to let it stand so far
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm sorry to see the pickle you are in, so it is kind of squishy to mention this bit .. most other SL-sponsoring landlords seem to like to have these threads deleted, but Imagin Illyar has at least been good enough to let it stand so far
I didn't lie, I didn't leave out any details. You get threads deleted for telling it as it is? I think I was pretty fair in my description of what happened I think, or at least I hope. I even told her I was posting to get a few views on how I was treated.

So you are saying if you sponsor something, negative comments are deleted?

I can deal with rip off artists etc, but this is why this has hurt a little as she is not that. Something is up.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah, it has happened that way, but they are helping to keep SLU's lights on so I guess they have a little pull. And agreed, the whole thing that happened to you seems out of character.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I've seen incoherent rants about Anshe disappear. This thread's a coherent warning about what happens in a world without civic bylaws or small claims courts. In that sort of system one never pays in advance any more than they're willing to walk away from.
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I find it really hard to believe taht Cris or his mods would delete any threads that weren't left by spam-bots. I mean, mai gawds... Jus' looka teh thread 'bout Bigfoots n' a few of teh comments I've left!

SLU has a long standin' rep fa lettin' people shove they foots so deep in they mouth taht they can tickle they boohole with they toes.
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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... expect a little more in Willowdale Estate.
That slogan can be put to rest now, I guess.

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Old 04-15-2017, 05:20 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I find it really hard to believe taht Cris or his mods would delete any threads that weren't left by spam-bots. I mean, mai gawds... Jus' looka teh thread 'bout Bigfoots n' a few of teh comments I've left!

SLU has a long standin' rep fa lettin' people shove they foots so deep in they mouth taht they can tickle they boohole with they toes.
I remember one thread in the past about/against the practice of a SL merchant that has been deleted, many years ago.
So yes, it happens, not often, but it happens.
And rightfully so.
It's Cris who decides over what happens here at SLU and what not.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Does she have a policy about this? Check her covenant and website.

Back when I was having to close a lot of regions, I changed my covenant to provide transfers only and not guarantee refunds under any circumstances. I did this because I was offering people transfers to equivalent or better land plus a free week or more of tier, but some were angry about having to move and demanded refunds out of spite no matter how good the incentives were. The policy change was effective at getting almost all customers to move instead -- and once moved, they usually stayed. However, in practice, I have continued to refund people when I couldn't substantially match the land they already had. It's not fair to only offer someone land that's far more expensive than what they were paying and essentially hold the advance tier they paid hostage. I hope that's not what she's doing...I always liked her company and wished my sims could look as good!
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
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It's not fair to only offer someone land that's far more expensive than what they were paying and essentially hold the advance tier they paid hostage.
That was my take away from the OP. Rather stupid since instead of an ex-customer that would sing their praises when asked by someone about rentals, they have some one that will trash talk them instead.

Are those $L worth the bad PR?
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:16 AM   #22 (permalink)
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OP Also didn't want to tier down, so that limited their selection to parcels that were equal to or bigger. And they didn't want anything bigger, so OP is being just as inflexible as the estate owner.
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:38 AM   #23 (permalink)
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OP Also didn't want to tier down, so that limited their selection to parcels that were equal to or bigger. And they didn't want anything bigger, so OP is being just as inflexible as the estate owner.
The landowner terminated the lease.
A refund of the money of the not used time is the least that a tenant can expect in that situation.
No flexibility needed from that side.
What the landowner does, is plain robbery IMHO. Just because LL lets her get away with it, doesn't make it right.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:23 AM   #24 (permalink)
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That's why I generally would not pay that much tier in advance to anyone. I *may* do it for the initial rental to get a potential discount but generally speaking, I would never keep that much money on a box.
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
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@Sid: I was just stating facts. To me it seems like both sides are being inflexible.

Jenn doesn't want anything but the EXACT same parcel size.
Imagin doesn't have any land of the exact same size to offer, but is still offering free tier whether she chooses to tier up or down.

Personally I have that "no refunds" policy so I can cite that if I really need to. Have I made exceptions to the rule? Very rarely, but I have done it.

The policy is there mostly because I allow my residents to resell their land. It's also there for people who don't bother to read the covenant. They'll build something completely out of theme on the estate, or ignore all the rules and piss off everyone they encounter. Then when I tell them to make changes to their build, or stop being a cock, they're the ones who get all butthurt and decide to leave. Then they have the gall of demanding a FULL refund when they're in the wrong.

ETA: @Imagin, putting another thread up with the exact same title that is nothing but reviews seems... bad.
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