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Old 04-19-2017, 12:48 PM   #101 (permalink)
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And I don't disagree with any of that. Putting SL on Steam in its current condition would be inviting negativity. As much as I personally love SL as this kooky, weird public access thing, it has never, ever, been ready for prime time. (Although, it could be. If LL ever decided to get their shit together.)

I really do wonder if LL realized that (minus the parenthesis, of course. Pretty obvious they're still oblivious to that), or something else came up, or if their reasoning was something else altogether. I suppose we'll never know.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:58 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I was actually surprised to find that not much has changed in the default client in regards to how clunky and user unfriendly it is when I logged in recently, after a break of several years.

It's like LL just said fuck it, let's keep it stuck in a time capsule back when SL was seen as hot shit.
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:20 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I think maybe LL did get their shit together, at least their technical shit, and it is called Sansar. Meanwhile SL has become sort of their testing ground where they throw any crazy idea at the wall and looks to see what sticks.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:35 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I think maybe LL did get their shit together, at least their technical shit, and it is called Sansar. Meanwhile SL has become sort of their testing ground where they throw any crazy idea at the wall and looks to see what sticks.
Eh, I suppose it's how you define "technical shit". Nothing I've seen from LL in the past few years, with regards to SL or Sansar, show LL as having any sort of shit together in areas that are critical.

I'd love for them to prove me wrong, but I am not seeing it.
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:14 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I suspect that draw weight doesn’t quite give an accurate picture of the total resource consumption of a given avatar.

I have looked at the render cost of some of the latest mesh bodies and one in particular, Belleza, astounded me with a polygon count of 1,700,000. This is equivalent to the typical number of vertices you would find in a Zbrush sculpt or, put another way, equivalent to wearing 16 Maitreya bodies. While I won’t pretend to understand why the creator felt it necessary to use that much geometry in a body with no static keyframes, what I find truly puzzling is the draw weight of the person I inspected wasn’t much higher compared with those using other mesh bodies. It is clear that Linden Lab needs to update their render cost calculations with algorithms which better reflect the true impact on a user’s system – and that includes textures.

Consumers in general prefer to ignore the technical issues surrounding optimization. This is perfectly reasonable, as it is ultimately the creators who should be taken to task for releasing overly complex mesh. Unfortunately, in the absence of any hard limits imposed by Linden Lab, only the consumer is capable of punishing creators who choose not to be responsible content creators. In this, there is a lot Linden Lab can do to help educate the consumer.

One idea I would put forth is to implement a web interface similar to the armoury found in Blizzard’s World of Warcraft. This paperdoll interface would consist of a low resolution 3D figure representing your avatar rendered with webkit, an information box and item attachment slots showing each attachment you are wearing (i.e. head, neck, spine, etc).

The avatar 3D model can be tumbled around, panned and zoomed using the same Second Life camera controls that users are already familiar with. The item attachment slots contain the current attachments worn by the avatar in-world along with a render weight figure beside each slot. Users can drag attachments out of a slot and onto a pasteboard area to preview what their avatar looks like without that particular attachment. To encourage experimentation, manipulating attachments this way will have no effect on the avatar’s in-world appearance. Finally, the information box will display vitals like the total polycount, number of textures, and VRAM consumed by all occupied slots – all of which has a link to a wiki article when hovered over with the mouse cursor. The idea is to give the concerned consumer an easy to read breakdown of resources each attachment requires in order to spot potential culprits that may cause them to appear as a Jellybaby to others.

Ideally, this paper doll mechanism would be embedded in the marketplace and retroactively update with items found in the consumer’s shopping cart. For an example, a shopper who is interested in hats can add several such items to their cart which are then copied to the pasteboard. These can be placed into the head slot to gage the render cost of each item prior to checkout.

While this isn’t a perfect system by any means, some variation of this would go a long way towards providing consumers who choose not to ignore the problem with some rudimentary tools to help them make a more informed decision by identifying poorly optimized mesh.

At any rate, nothing will illustrate the predicament we all find ourselves in with respect to client performance issues better than tomorrow’s Fantasy Faire; arguably the most lag induced event of the year (with SLB as a close second). The endless combinations of non-optimized jewelry, attachments, structures, particles and scripted objects typical of the fantasy theme on display will surely test the best of gaming rigs out there.
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Old 04-25-2017, 05:25 PM   #106 (permalink)
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what I find truly puzzling is the draw weight of the person I inspected wasn’t much higher compared with those using other mesh bodies.
What was the number?
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:05 PM   #107 (permalink)
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What I think LL should do now as the second part of jelly dolls is to allow landowners to set a maximum draw weight for avatars entering their land. That would have an effect I'm sure!
I would imagine the places where this would actually be effective would be in the minority.
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:42 PM   #108 (permalink)
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So I decided to turn on the draw weight feature since I've been going to Fantasy Faire and I was curious what my draw weight would be and what others were. I also turned on jelly babies because of the high lag environment. I was shocked to find that I was almost 150K draw weight! So I looked at myself, OK I have mesh hair but it has a flexi add-on piece. I changed to all mesh hair. Went down about 10K. I'm still really high! I had on shoes with lots of tiny roses on them. I changed those out. Went down 10K. I was still well over 100 K for no apparent reason. I did have on jewelry that I had forgotten about which was made by a very prominent creator, someone I've seen on here. They make awesome stuff so I won't name them. I also had on a dress that was fairly elaborate but I don't know why it was that much.

Today I changed and I'm looking at myself now. I have on a very fancy mesh dress, mesh hair, a detailed masquerade mask, and two animated pets. Mesh feet and shoes. I'm only at 41K.

I've been going around the faire with a friend who is not at all savvy about these things. She put on what she said was a low lag outfit, and it sure looked like it would be. Textured clothing only, simple mesh hair, and a pair of old boots. She was 98K! I didn't say anything to her because how could I even explain it? It had to be just her shoes causing that.

My point is, there is no way for the average user to understand this stuff, including many people who have been in Second Life for 10 years like my friend. She was dressed very simply but everything was skewed by one pair of shoes that people were wearing six years ago when things were less laggy than they are now. It has basically made me give up on this as any type of useful measurement, although I am keeping jelly dolls on at 200K to browse the faire since it helps a little bit.
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:28 PM   #109 (permalink)
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I recently went to a sale by a well-known hair maker and in trying on demos was reminded of the fact that many of the hairs I bought there in the past were also render weight monsters.

It motivated me to discover EMO-tions and rediscover Truth. Those I bought there are generally around 2000 to 6000 while the lowest from the old place was around 30,000 and the highest two were near 100,000 by themselves.

An expensive discovery, but I've found some nice new looks out of it.


Aaand I said this twice in this thread. . Yeah, gotta go find Nemo now . . oooh, shiny!

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Old 04-28-2017, 07:34 PM   #110 (permalink)
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My point is, there is no way for the average user to understand this stuff, including many people who have been in Second Life for 10 years like my friend. She was dressed very simply but everything was skewed by one pair of shoes that people were wearing six years ago when things were less laggy than they are now. It has basically made me give up on this as any type of useful measurement, although I am keeping jelly dolls on at 200K to browse the faire since it helps a little bit.
I see where you're coming from but not sure I entirely agree. My personal experience is that, on average, draw weight is down across the grid. There are exceptions, of course, and I imagine most of those are in the same boat as our friend, but I keep my jelly dolls cut-off at 80K and jelly dolls are in the minority (but I see a very noticeable performance boost).

That said, I agree 100% that LL has done a poor job of communicating to its userbase regarding draw weight, jelly dolls, and the impact that unoptimized content has on performance and this has limited the effect of features like jelly dolls and draw weight.
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:38 PM   #111 (permalink)
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I see where you're coming from but not sure I entirely agree. My personal experience is that, on average, draw weight is down across the grid. There are exceptions, of course, and I imagine most of those are in the same boat as our friend, but I keep my jelly dolls cut-off at 80K and jelly dolls are in the minority (but I see a very noticeable performance boost).

That said, I agree 100% that LL has done a poor job of communicating to its userbase regarding draw weight, jelly dolls, and the impact that unoptimized content has on performance and this has limited the effect of features like jelly dolls and draw weight.

Most the jellydolls I've seen have been kid avies.
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Old 04-29-2017, 07:26 AM   #112 (permalink)
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As a general rule, 'rigged' or 'fitted' hair will have a lower render weight than 'unrigged' hair (if you can move the hair with edit, it's unrigged). Flexi bits, of course, send the RW through the roof. Short hair is almost always unrigged.

I've found low render weight hair at Argrace, Ayashi, Catwa, Chemistry, EMO-tions, Exile, Magika, Mina, Monso, Tableau Vivant, and Truth. Ayashi wins for having the most, in fact their unrigged hairs are often low RW (I said it was a "general" rule ). You just have to like the anime look.


On a not-quite-unrelated side note, as a sailor, I'm also concerned with LoD since people are often looking at me from across a sim or two. For some reason, rigged hair seems to always have better LoD.
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:03 AM   #113 (permalink)
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My point is, there is no way for the average user to understand this stuff, including many people who have been in Second Life for 10 years like my friend. She was dressed very simply but everything was skewed by one pair of shoes that people were wearing six years ago when things were less laggy than they are now. It has basically made me give up on this as any type of useful measurement, although I am keeping jelly dolls on at 200K to browse the faire since it helps a little bit.
There are mostly sensible reasons why render weight works as it does, but it requires one to investigate the why themselves. It's not difficult for the average user to understand, but it also isn't obvious for those who don't already have the know how.

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For some reason, rigged hair seems to always have better LoD.
This would be because rigged items only use the highest LOD.
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:53 PM   #114 (permalink)
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What was the number?
After a remarkably long drought, I finally spotted a female avatar with the Belleza body in a nudist sim. Even better was the fact that she was nearby other avatars with the Maitreya mesh body.

I politely asked the Belleza and Maitreya customers if they would be willing to remove all external attachments for the purposes of assessing their draw weight. Both were happy to comply with detaching jewelry but insisted any request to remove hair, nipples and genitalia was tantamount to a death wish.

So, with all the extra attachments factored in, the Maitreya body (200k polygons) weighed in at a draw weight of 55k whereas the Belleza body (1700k polygons) saw a surprisingly moderate increase of just 78k draw weight. Clearly, the draw weight algorithm needs work.

Still, male avatars will be happy to know that Belleza’s male bodies are only 180k in polygon count. We can only hope the female bodies will undergo a similar optimization cycle on the next update.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:41 AM   #115 (permalink)
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So, with all the extra attachments factored in, the Maitreya body (200k polygons) weighed in at a draw weight of 55k whereas the Belleza body (1700k polygons) saw a surprisingly moderate increase of just 78k draw weight.
Giving the render weight of a body while other attachments are still being accounted for isn't very useful. The Maitreya body, hands and feet together, wearing no other attachments, only has a render weight of 9,770k

Its other combined stats are as follows:
Vertices: 151,360
Triangles: 253,680

I cannot be bothered to check Belleza again since I don't like to be reminded that such an abomination of a mesh exists.

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Clearly, the draw weight algorithm needs work.
This much has been clear for a really long time, but it is still a decent general intication.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:02 AM   #116 (permalink)
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I blame my willy for higher ARC. I usually take it off for normal use, but as soon as it goes on, even if hidden, my weight jumps up about 40,000.

I've recently been normalising between 80k and 100k. It's usually jewellery, bracelets and other accessories that take me up to between 120 and 180. If i go over 200 it's because i'm using old hair and have all my jewellery and my willy on!
My pierced willy is 60k

I used to wear it always, just hidden, but I did adopt the habit now to detach it when not in use.

Without it I have a pretty law render weight. Under 50k usually. Depending on the character and outfit I'm wearing.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:58 AM   #117 (permalink)
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My pierced willy is 60k

I used to wear it always, just hidden, but I did adopt the habit now to detach it when not in use.

Without it I have a pretty law render weight. Under 50k usually. Depending on the character and outfit I'm wearing.
Just wondering if alpha'd bodyparts are part of the arc, but other people dont see it on their screens. Is it still rendered, and therefor contribute to the renderload?
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:17 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Just wondering if alpha'd bodyparts are part of the arc, but other people dont see it on their screens. Is it still rendered, and therefor contribute to the renderload?
Alpha'd out geometry still counts. If you've got a shoulder pet that animates by alpha flipping, all its polys count, even the ones you can't see. If your standard LL body is mostly (or even all) alpha'd out you still get "charged" for the base avatar in your ARC.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:51 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Just wondering if alpha'd bodyparts are part of the arc, but other people dont see it on their screens. Is it still rendered, and therefor contribute to the renderload?
Aeros doesn't actually alpha it out. They rescale and reposition it when you hide it, with every piece of the cock becoming 0.01 big and burying inside your pelvis. That way it becomes effectively invisible too, but without the red outline that becomes visible when someone clicks on "show transparent prims" (or whatever that option is called exactly)

But yes, invisible items also count to your render load.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:30 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Invisible items actually have a higher draw weight. The reason is that SL uses blended alpha for all slider based transparency, even at 100% transparency and blended alpha requires a lot more processing power than masked or no alpha items.

Even if you can't see the attachment, your videocard does and still has to process it.
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Old 06-13-2017, 06:36 AM   #121 (permalink)
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I figured I'd jump in.

Lately Draw weight has been pushing way down with a lot of creators, but that is not really due to them becoming more skilled at optimizing their content.

There is currently a pretty severe loophole in how LODs (the different versions of a mesh that creators have to supply, from most detailed to less detailed) are managed for rigged meshs (this only affects rigged meshs). For some reason the viewer gives a huge bias to these mesh types opposed to their unrigged counterpart.

Long story short: A rigged mesh "almost" never uses its lower definition LODs, you have to actually set your viewer settings to extremely low settings to ever see those lower LODs.

As a result a lot of clothes and body creators put a single polygon as one or more of their lowest lods, which leads to the draw weight dropping drastically for virtually no effort.

So yeah, Catwa Annie 4, 2.7 million triangles, Beleza Freya 2.4 million (i think?), it figures.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:06 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Invisible items actually have a higher draw weight. The reason is that SL uses blended alpha for all slider based transparency, even at 100% transparency and blended alpha requires a lot more processing power than masked or no alpha items.

Even if you can't see the attachment, your videocard does and still has to process it.
But you don't have to use blended alpha.

Code:
// Drag into any object to change all alpha blended textures to alpha masking,
// using the cutoff value below. The script will delete itself afterward.
// to avoid the changes not saving, apply script when rezzed on ground

integer Cutoff = 127;
default{
    state_entry(){
        llSetLinkPrimitiveParams(LINK_SET, [PRIM_ALPHA_MODE,
            ALL_SIDES, PRIM_ALPHA_MODE_MASK, Cutoff]);
        llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());
    }
}
Make a copy of any object and rez it on the ground. Drop this script into it. It will convert all blended alpha in the object into alpha-masking, with a cutoff of 127. In most cases, it should barely look any different, but will have CONSIDERABLE lower drawweight, and, even if it doesn't have much lower drawweight, it will be far less intensive to render.

Last edited by Adeon Writer; 06-13-2017 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:49 AM   #123 (permalink)
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But you don't have to use blended alpha.
Thank you for the script. Now, what happens if i place it for example into a tree, where the leafs are then turned into masked alpha.. how can i measure the difference? Are there any tools in the viewer to see what i am saving in needed render performance?
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:46 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Are there any tools in the viewer to see what i am saving in needed render performance?
FPS is what you'll be looking for here, ctrl + shift + 1 will show it, and some viewers display it in the upper right corner as well. One or two plants usually won't make a big difference, but for a full forest, there will be a nice improvement setting things to masked alpha.

Everyone in SL should be setting all of their trees and grass to masked whenever possible, with very, very few exceptions.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:55 AM   #125 (permalink)
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FPS is what you'll be looking for here.
Ok my FPS is 60 before and after.. however...
i tooka hayabusa tree and attached it
by i had a renderweight of roughly 15 K added to my avatar
then i ran that magic script, turning blended to masked and the added renderweight was by the tree only 6 K. so it reduced the renderweight of this one tree by 60%, roundabout.
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